Shields

[Dusk]

Creating this topic with changes in the Parry system in mind, and the number of higher levels I have personally observed forgoing a shield. Having said that, I want to make two things clear:

• By no means am I claiming all players eventually discontinue shield use as they attain higher levels with their characters.
• By no means am I claiming shields are obsolete as they are now, at any level.

This is simply a topic to suggest changes that will encourage shield-usage, because IMHO shields could use a little love. I've two modest suggestions myself:

1) Small shields/bucklers not entirely negating the bonus to AC from the Parry skill. This has always seemed a realistic change to me, given the relatively small size and weight of bucklers. I'd love to see the buckler become a more viable option than it is now for protection for dex-based characters. Perhaps require characters to take the Improved Parry feat before bucklers no longer negate Parry AC bonus?

2) A greater variety in crafting materials for shields. Either with new possibilities from existing crafting materials, or by the addition of new ones. Wood that may be used in place of oak, for example, from new trees native to different domains or more difficult to reach areas in Barovia. My reason for suggesting this is less so that more effective shields may be crafted to replace ones that may be crafted now, but to offer more opportunity for higher levels wishing to enchant a shield. Enchanted shields are very effective now, but IMO it could encourage shield-usage at higher levels if there were more options available for enchanting shields-- choices in material that may not necessarily give as much AC when enchanted, but other specific bonuses that could be difficult to obtain otherwise.

Flame, troll, or discuss away.

[BahamutZ3RO]

10/- DR on tower shields. >_>

[Amon-Si]

Maybe 1/, then 2/, then 3/?
That would make a little sense, Shields don't make you harder to hit, it's just harder not to hit a material that doesn't care so much, but it should still be a minimal DR... IMO

[BahamutZ3RO]

3/- isn't going to offset the amount of awesomeness you reap with a huge AC. Truthfully though, the parrying thing is only really viable to someone who sinks everrrything into it. Which means mainly Fighters or maybe Rogues/Rangers/etc who don't want to be good at anything else.

[APorg]

1) Small shields/bucklers not entirely negating the bonus to AC from the Parry skill. This has always seemed a realistic change to me, given the relatively small size and weight of bucklers. I'd love to see the buckler become a more viable option than it is now for protection for dex-based characters. Perhaps require characters to take the Improved Parry feat before bucklers no longer negate Parry AC bonus?

I do see people using all sizes of shields -- the main restricting factor on these is weight. The AC/weight ratio on smaller shields is actually better so usually it's only good STR builds who can afford to lug around Tower Shields. I've seen low STR builds using small shields (Luck is popular), medium STR builds using large shields too (my paladin used a Sun Shield for a long time) so I'm not sure the problem you're trying to fix is one that's so wide-spread...

It's also easier to get a flat +2 small shield or large shield than it is to get a +2 tower shield... (I'm not sure there is a straightforward +2 tower shield in the game).

So all in all it's a very delicate balance. Give a bonus to small shields and suddenly it's the large shields that will become the rare and endangered species...

[Silverfox]

To be fair lol, hit L12 and a tower shield is redundant with 10 Dex if you put a point in parry every level. Maybe not a thick steel one, but then account for the fact most parry builds have 14 or more dex, and then yeah....Starts looking pretty pointless having a shield lol.

[APorg]

To be fair lol, hit L12 and a tower shield is redundant with 10 Dex if you put a point in parry every level. Maybe not a thick steel one, but then account for the fact most parry builds have 14 or more dex, and then yeah....Starts looking pretty pointless having a shield lol.

Spoiler: show

You can use varnishes on shields.

[Amon-Si]

3/- isn't going to offset the amount of awesomeness you reap with a huge AC. Truthfully though, the parrying thing is only really viable to someone who sinks everrrything into it. Which means mainly Fighters or maybe Rogues/Rangers/etc who don't want to be good at anything else.

That's true, but you don't -lose- AC if your parry is less than 0, so a tower shield will become a +3AC 3/DR monster of an item from level 1, when you can only really start with about +3 parry AC if you go nuts and have a high Dex already and you're still squishy! Oh, good point Apro!
Shields can give +7 AC from the get go if you spend a little cash.

[BahamutZ3RO]

3/- isn't going to offset the amount of awesomeness you reap with a huge AC. Truthfully though, the parrying thing is only really viable to someone who sinks everrrything into it. Which means mainly Fighters or maybe Rogues/Rangers/etc who don't want to be good at anything else.

That's true, but you don't -lose- AC if your parry is less than 0, so a tower shield will become a +3AC 3/DR monster of an item from level 1, when you can only really start with about +3 parry AC if you go nuts and have a high Dex already and you're still squishy! Oh, good point Apro!
Shields can give +7 AC from the get go if you spend a little cash.

True. It all depends on the character and the build. Ironically, I can kinda see shields becoming more useful on barbs than fighters, since they give AC and don't require a plethora of feats.

[APorg]

The main downside of shields is that they become reliant on buffs (either Cleric or alchemy) or enchantment to be competitive at higher levels.

However they're mostly competitive because steel chitin shields kick the AC/Weight ratio in the nuts and make all other crafted shields look damned heavy.

It's also true that I've never seen an enchanted smaller shield; the only shield types that are regularly enchanted are large and tower-sized. Then again, shield enchantment is rare because it's as expensive as armour but a shield can still be lost on death.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Something else to consider: Shields allow the wielder to deflect arrows, don't they?

[Amon-Si]

Something else to consider: Shields allow the wielder to deflect arrows, don't they?

Yes, they do.
Now that I think about it... a +7ac, 3/DR tower shield on a level 20 barbarian... whoo.

[Dusk]

1) Small shields/bucklers not entirely negating the bonus to AC from the Parry skill. This has always seemed a realistic change to me, given the relatively small size and weight of bucklers. I'd love to see the buckler become a more viable option than it is now for protection for dex-based characters. Perhaps require characters to take the Improved Parry feat before bucklers no longer negate Parry AC bonus?

I do see people using all sizes of shields -- the main restricting factor on these is weight. The AC/weight ratio on smaller shields is actually better so usually it's only good STR builds who can afford to lug around Tower Shields. I've seen low STR builds using small shields (Luck is popular), medium STR builds using large shields too (my paladin used a Sun Shield for a long time) so I'm not sure the problem you're trying to fix is one that's so wide-spread...

It's also easier to get a flat +2 small shield or large shield than it is to get a +2 tower shield... (I'm not sure there is a straightforward +2 tower shield in the game).

So all in all it's a very delicate balance. Give a bonus to small shields and suddenly it's the large shields that will become the rare and endangered species...

Eh, I do not feel as though there's a 'problem' with shields, so to speak, just a lack of encouragement to use them. With small shields specifically, I've seen a few of them being used, but at higher levels I'm having trouble recalling PCs who have chosen a small shield over the bonus Parry could give. Allowing the retention of Parry AC with small shields would make large shields much less appealing to character types standing to benefit from Parry, I agree, but the substantial difference in weight between the large shield and tower shield leads me to disagree that the large shield will become rare and endangered, especially given I can't recall any straightforward +2 tower shields off the top of my head either, leaving a specific +2 large shield a viable alternative IMO.

[Crimson Shuriken]

Luck is a godsend for halfings, and I think there is actually a Towershield +2, I know of at least two pcs that have one but its rarer than the large shield. (does not have light on it though so totally awesome)

[APorg]

Eh, I do not feel as though there's a 'problem' with shields, so to speak, just a lack of encouragement to use them.

I think you have to be wary of making this a "race to the top". Personally I agree with you that the Parry system changes have discouraged small shield use -- when I was considering a Bard build, I explicitly designed him with the idea of using Luck up to the point where my Parry Skill could beat +2 AC -- but if the solution then is to make small shields better again, do you see that this is becoming a trickle effect that is "pushing things upwards"? And at some point, too far is simply too far. In my opinion, the (recent) Parry system change was a step too far, so what you're suggesting is another step in the wrong direction.

[Dusk]

In my opinion, the (recent) Parry system change was a step too far, so what you're suggesting is another step in the wrong direction.

That's fair. Definitely agreed the Parry system discourages small shields-- simply disagreed on a solution. 

[dutchy]

It is slim picking and with the parry system the balance did get tipped, that's the odd thing of Nwn the more we alter the more balancing is needed.

So yeah good points raised

[HellsPanda]

the benefit of a shield is that you wont need to put skill points in parry, which for fighters, paladins and clerics make it like the greatest thing ever, most of these really dont have alot of skill points to go around. In addition unless you actually increase your Dex, and/or take the two parry feats, your not going to beat shields for AC bonus as a fighter. The two feats wont matter to fighters, they get a billion feats anyway

[EberronBruce]

What I think what needs to be looked at is how shields where used. This gives some examples.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc[/youtube]

Now what I think should be done is towershields give extra protection against arrows. Reason for this you could hide behind it exposing little, however, the shields are too heavy to be used in practical fighting. I don't think anyone of us can move 45lbs of weight on our arms with ease.

Bucklers are good back up shields. They should be useful and large shields should be common place.

However, dex builds with tumble and parry will get the highest AC possible.

[BahamutZ3RO]

I don't think anyone of us can move 45lbs of weight on our arms with ease.

Just to play devil's advocate, characters are not regular people. High str fighters, especially, can carry hundreds of pounds with ease.

[GraveThatGoesYards]

Exactly, just like most characters wouldn't be capable of traversing half the mountains on the server, given the weight they are carrying in items alone. D&D never mixes too well with science/realism.

[Mark Johansen]

like you wouldt be able to pack 12 towershield, 14 fullplates and 14 bags of ore into your bag without travesing with a mule behind you ;=)

[RigorMortis]

like you wouldt be able to pack 12 towershield, 14 fullplates and 14 bags of ore into your bag without travesing with a mule behind you ;=)

-_-" Well that is one of the benefits of my class.

But something to propose is the fact that you can wear a buckler whilst using a greatsword or other two handed weapon, that's the point of the dinner plate sized thing, was to protect the wrist and forearm whilst swinging such things.

Perhaps it could be implemented that those that use greatswords and the like could be given usage of bucklers?

[HellsPanda]

In PnP the Tower shield lowers your AB, due to its unwieldy nature

[Geiger]

In PnP towershields are their own feat and only fighters auto-get that feat.