Grappling

[APorg]

I've not found any rules explicitly talking about this so I thought I'd start a subject.

There seems to be often a lack of agreement and consensus over how grappling should work. I've seen a lot of scenes degenerate OOC because of lack of agreement over grappling should function.

I figure the best place to start is the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple

Any other frameworks that are useful for these scenes?

[tzaeru]

When it has happened, I've usually suggested the basic DnD way to go about it. That is, grappling check is opposed by grappling check and an attempt at grappling requires a successful touch attack, which is opposed by dodge.

[Mayvind]

Grapple roll vs Grapple, as for using dodge, it always low since it is dodge not AC. And same with all skills rolls it is RP tools, seperate from PvP aka Real Combat System.

[tzaeru]

Grapple roll vs Grapple, as for using dodge, it always low since it is dodge not AC. And same with all skills rolls it is RP tools, seperate from PvP aka Real Combat System.

In standard DnD you can't grapple someone without a successful melee touch attack.

Grappling is supposed to be a lot harder than just lightly slapping someone, hence in our systems it'd go something like:
Touch Attack vs. Dodge, to be able to attempt grappling to begin with, then:
Grapple vs. Grapple to see if the grappling attempt succeed.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

Grapple roll vs Grapple, as for using dodge, it always low since it is dodge not AC. And same with all skills rolls it is RP tools, seperate from PvP aka Real Combat System.

+1 to Mayvind here, this is how I use it and how the Vampire Feed Tool calculates the grapple contest for a victim and the vampire.

[Troukk]

I may be a bit off-topic here, but I think it's something worth mentioning:

Grapples, just like every other "roll", can't be forced upon another player. They are only one of many roleplaying tools and a player may choose not to use them. Only DMs can force players to "roll" anything.

Also, even though I am a big fan of "rolls", never forget that: Roleplaying > Roll-playing.

[Bodhidharma]

I think there should be a very basic guide on how to properly roll certain things, I tend to avoid RP combats (and all kinds of combat really) because most people simply don't know how to use it properly.


I usually follow my own table, I've not read about any of this but it's rather something I've learned over the years and honestly the things I find to be the most vital:

Stat versus stat
skill versus skill
Attack roll (touch attack) versus AC
Grapple vs grapple


Spells is not included in the list above, I find them too complex to RP out without the standard fighting engine.

[APorg]

I think there should be a very basic guide on how to properly roll certain things, I tend to avoid RP combats (and all kinds of combat really) because most people simply don't know how to use it properly.

^

This.

RP combats are probably better than regular combats in terms of pursuing a story but at the same time, there seems to be so little common ground or agreement in RP combats that they fail.

[Lucadia]

There should be a set guideline when ones who do jump into role play combat dont suddently start adding in rules that are not part of the dnd spirit , turning things awkward very fast

[BahamutZ3RO]

The important thing for RP combat to work is that someone has to be willing to lose. I've intentionally put Fane into RP situations knowing full well he's going to get beat up. That black eye'll give him something to whine about later!

[Troukk]

There should be a set guideline when ones who do jump into role play combat dont suddently start adding in rules that are not part of the dnd spirit , turning things awkward very fast

Agreed. Great idea.

[Elfric]

Grapple VS Grapple, how hard is it to understand!? 

[tzaeru]

Grapple VS Grapple, how hard is it to understand!?  

So you don't need a touch attack? In other words, your hulking huge 8 dexterity caliban barbarian can trivially grapple a 22 dexterity halfling rogue just because the caliban has the strength to do so without any chance of dodging the attempt for the halfling?

I'd really go with standard DnD which is a melee touch attack followed by grapple check.

[Elfric]

Touch VS reflex > Grapple VS Grapple > Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Happy?

[tzaeru]

Touch VS reflex > Grapple VS Grapple > Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Happy?

[Touch attack] vs [Dodge]
--> if successful:
[Grapple] vs [Grapple]

Happy?

That's anyhow how I've always thought that it should be done and how I've agreed to do it with others in-game.

[Mayvind]

See the problem ? we all have mind set on how to RP combat, i just skip all this and go for my Implosion.

[Lucadia]

Touch VS reflex > Grapple VS Grapple > Ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

Happy?

[Touch attack] vs [Dodge]
--> if successful:
[Grapple] vs [Grapple]

Happy?

while a good set up, this does not include rules how to deal with more then one attempting to grapple the same person, or if its a chain grapple of 1<2<3.


That's anyhow how I've always thought that it should be done and how I've agreed to do it with others in-game.

[EberronBruce]

Problem being is dodge has never been high. I can roll a -4 on my attack and still grapple myself given the dodge roll. So it doesn't make much sense. Also in pnp there is escape artist which is used in grappling buy nothing of that matter here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm

This sums up table top grappling, but I still find some problems with it. Also start throwing in multiple grapplers, ect... it can get bog down. Also I would find it real hard to grapple someone who is quick and running away, (must use a tackle) and maintain control. Then trying to grapple a thing like a dragon (impossible) but you could hold on for dear life like in the classic example of a dragon slayer on top of a head of a dragon.

The NWN engine doesn't support grappling, thus it is a limitation. Which I like the idea of grappling monks. Tis a shame.

[Zhernebog]

Doing away with grapple would be a huge shame. Usually when I attempt to grapple someone, I accept any die roll they feel is acceptable, from Belar's antagonize "DONT TOUCH ME YALL RUFFLE M'BEARD" to Magau's opposed grapple check, it's all about the rp, not the numbers.

For combat, I always thought it was a touch attack, then grapple check. And missing out on the ability to do so is a huge pity. Grappling is often the only way fighters/monks stop spellcasters aside from repeated knockdown.

Not to branch from this, but what's the roll for swallowing whole?

Touch attack->Grapple->Grapple?

[tzaeru]

while a good set up, this does not include rules how to deal with more then one attempting to grapple the same person, or if its a chain grapple of 1<2<3.

I think that's up to player's responsibility. The rules concerning that are a bit more complex in DnD. You could try the touch attack every round, but you'd be getting AoOs at you and such. Personally I'd never try the grapple again immediately but would consider the character has a valid chance of just legging it after a failed grapple.

Problem being is dodge has never been high. I can roll a -4 on my attack and still grapple myself given the dodge roll. So it doesn't make much sense. Also in pnp there is escape artist which is used in grappling buy nothing of that matter here.

So? You don't oppose a grapple check with dodge check. It's just that doing touch attack and opposing that with dodge before any grapple checks (which are opposed by grapple) gives an extra chance for more nimble but lower BAB and strength characters to escape.

[APorg]

I think that's up to player's responsibility. The rules concerning that are a bit more complex in DnD. You could try the touch attack every round, but you'd be getting AoOs at you and such. Personally I'd never try the grapple again immediately but would consider the character has a valid chance of just legging it after a failed grapple.

I think the idea here is just to create a bit more awareness and discussion about what is fair use of Grappling.

As has been said, Grappling is often resorted to as a medium of RP combat to avoid full-on PvP. Yet in my experience it tends to break down and people tend to get into disagreements, resulting in people either walking away in frustration, thing themselves cheated OOC, or people resorting to full-on PvP anyway (and thinking themselves cheated OOC).

The best way to avoid that is to create a cultural understanding of what grappling is and what it can do, and hope it spreads through the player base so that people will be on the same page.

So keep up the great discussion!

[ThePwush]

Grappling=Weakling bane. Hehehehehe.

As one of said weaklings, I don't mind grapple. I don't use it, and I try to avoid it because I am inherently on the losing end.  Yet, I wouldn't deny another the use of it. 

But a question for the grapplers.

Would you be willing to accept Tumble in place of Dodge?

[Lucadia]

Not exactly a way to put "skill points" into grapple, while tumble could be increased with skill ranks and items

[APorg]

Not exactly a way to put "skill points" into grapple, while tumble could be increased with skill ranks and items

Grapple increases with your BAB though. I don't think it's too unfair because in the SRD rules, someone can use Escape Artist to wriggle out of a grapple, and Tumble in NWN can represent that.

[ThePwush]

Not exactly a way to put "skill points" into grapple, while tumble could be increased with skill ranks and items

Grapple increases with your BAB though. I don't think it's too unfair because in the SRD rules, someone can use Escape Artist to wriggle out of a grapple, and Tumble in NWN can represent that.

That's along the way I see it. I may be wrong here and if I am please correct me, but dodge, as one advances in levels, will not advance as quickly as a BAB for a fighter class.  A fighter with a high Str will at higher levels have a significant advantage over a non-fighter in a grapple situation.  His/her BAB will most likely indicate a greater chance to hit on a melee touch attack, while the opponent's dodge would have a hard time keeping up with fighter's level advancements.  

Just the way I see it, respectfully. I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong in my observations if someone could show me why.