enchanting suggestion

[BalorVale]

I don't think there's an incredible glut in enchanted weapons flying about nor do I think they make a character invincible since there's plenty of ways to bypass saves and AC. If you're 24/7 powerhousing to get a full set of enchanted gear then you're probably not approaching the spirit of the game as intended. Most people are more concerned with playing the game and not what loot other people are getting since at the end of the day loot does not maketh the man nor bring the adventures and comrades.

This is my point, it only encourages people to do what you are saying "is not the point of the game" hoard their characters into becoming stagnant because they've spent so much time obtaining the gear now they don't want to lose it because it's difficult to do.

Making it easier ruins the "Low Magic effect"

Making it harder promotes character hoarding and stagnant characters.

It's why I propose we remove it completely.

What about the prospect of a second tier of enchanting (as there is multiple tiers of other crafts) open to lower levels, for lesser-powered equipment?

But this does not remove the above problems, It is a constructive idea however it does not solve the issue.

[Badelaire]

This is my point, it only encourages people to do what you are saying "is not the point of the game" hoard their characters into becoming stagnant because they've spent so much time obtaining the gear now they don't want to lose it because it's difficult to do.

How often does that occur? Because I look at the player list these days and I could count the characters I recognise from my main's conception still played regularly on one hand and even then, they're only on for a couple of hours at most. Enchanted gear's never really done anything but make things slightly easier for mid to high levels in tackling the greater challenges outside of Barovia and certainly doesn't prevent quick and painful death at the hands of pit fiends.

[Reaver]

Enchanting just doesn't provide this balancing.

Bear in mind that you're comparing apples and oranges here. Enchanted gear is useful for many reasons, even for spell casters.

A cleric who's buffed up is very powerful and will match a Fighter in enchanted gear, yes, but you're glossing over some key differences -- differences which are important motivations for people who seek out enchanted gear.

1) Enchanted gear doesn't need to be buffed to be awesome. The cleric needs to buff, which means he can be ambushed pre-buffing.

2) Equally, enchanted gear can't be dispelled; buffs can. (Hello Disjoiner potions.)

3) Enchanted gear provides "side" benefits to Skills and Saves that are very significant.

The little secret that nobody really talks about is that the best reason to get enchanted gear is for Saves -- enchanted armour will get you +2 universal, boots and helms will give you another +1 universal each -- and of course more on top of that. So that's +4 universal saves from thee item of gear that can't be lost without player consent or DM involvement.

Of course Clerics can and do seek out enchanted gear from time to time (though Fighters, Rogues and various such builds are my PC's main customers). But in my experience it's flat out wrong to say that enchanted gear does not level the divide between non-casters and casters. There are PCs out there who are effectively immune to certain Save-based spells because of the bonuses on their enchanted gear. That's a big factor to consider indeed.

Just my 2c from one of the server's current leading enchanters ;P

Enchanting being available to high levels only I would have to respectfully disagree, Greater Sanctuary allows for clerics to step away from the combat and then buff themselves up, plus if they have anything with a will save the fighter is toast it has a very nasty +6 will maximum, even with the +4 Universal, 10 is tiny compared to DC 30's that are thrown out with Hold Person's and Slay Livings, Disjunction potions don't stop instant death. Rogues don't even have a chance against a will save. It's usually a + 8 at High levels even with save bonuses, dead. The balancing problem does not lie in gear it is hardwired into the classes and Enchanting just makes overpowered classes more overpowered even though it does close the gap if a fighter has the gear and a cleric doesn't, if they both have it the balancing (Which is only a slight balance) is gone.

While it is true that both can and do seek out enchanted gear, I still would argue that the mundane classes seek it out more often, as clerics typically do not bother as they are not near as reliant.. However now it seems like this is breaking down into a class comparison which I do not believe is the original point of the topic.  Though I would like to point out it is possible for more mundane classes to achieve reasonable will and other saves with the help of enchanted gear to combat many of a clerics spells.  Again, using my main as an example (Level 6 fighter, 2 rogue, 5 blackguard), with various gear including both an enchanted fullplate and an enchanted helm, she manages a 21 fort, 17 reflex, and 16 will.. while 3 of such is from dark blessing, I also did not take two feats at the beginning to boost saves, so it is quite possible with the help of enchanted gear to pull your saves up high enough to resist the majority of spells which offer such saves if you truly want to.  Fighters will never match the absolute prowess of a fully prepared cleric on this server, its just something you must learn to deal with while playing a mundane class, however enchanted gear does help level the field a bit, boosting a fighters AC up to theat of a midly warded cleric, and that is quite a bit, something that I would hate to see stripped from the already weaker fighter.

However, more to the point, lowering the min level requirement I think would just trivialize much of the loot table for weapons, and armor, even the more sought after boots helms and shields would become hardly wanted since it would be fairly easy to access enchanted gear, as its FAR easier to regain the 14000 exp I spent on my fullplate at say level 10 dropping to 8 in comparison to making it up from a drop of level 14 to level 12.  It would also make enchanted gear more appealing to those same clerics, as itwould be nothing for them to recover the xp loss at a lower level, and it would again increase the gap in power as more less equipment dependant classes would begin seeing the  sacrifice needed to aquire such gear as more worth the benefit since it would be far easier to recover.

[APorg]

Greater Sanctuary allows for clerics to step away from the combat and then buff themselves up

Greater Sanctuary can still be dispelled by a Disjoiner potion. Failing that, a Fighter can probably retreat rather than stick around like a turkey awaiting to be slaughtered.

DC 30's that are thrown out with Hold Person's and Slay Livings

How do you get DC30 on level 2 & level 5 spells?

Disjunction potions don't stop instant death.

I think you're overblowing the capability of Clerics. Yes, they're a very powerful class. At the same time if you're going to use the premise that a buffed cleric is always going to beat an unbuffed fighter, that's not a particularly helpful example to study the nitty-gritty detail where enchantment can tilt the balance.

It's usually a + 8 at High levels even with save bonuses, dead.

Assuming a Wisdom of 10, a high level Rogue or Fighter with can have +4 from class, +4 will from Feats, and anywhere up to +13 or +14 from equipment on the up side with enchanted gear. Of course that's quite unlikely but +6 is not such a stretch. So erring on the moderate side, we're looking at a Will save of +14.

I don't see how you're getting DC30s on these Cleric spells. Maybe a buffed Cleric using level 9 spells could get DC30s but weaker spells are probably not going to get that high.

The balancing problem does not lie in gear it is hardwired into the classes

The problem with your balancing argument is that you're using scenarios in which the Cleric has already won.

Enchanting just makes overpowered classes more overpowered even though it does close the gap if a fighter has the gear and a cleric doesn't, if they both have it the balancing (Which is only a slight balance) is gone.

The problem is you misunderstand the PCs' motivations and you assume the situation is equal for both; whereas it's not. A smart Fighter/Rogue player will quickly aim to get enchanted gear because at mid levels (i.e. around level 14), it represents great value for money. For a cleric, getting enchanted gear is a speed-bump that slows them down getting higher level spells. Thus a cleric is often going to get enchanted gear as late as possible (if at all). Those are very different motivations.

It's not a level field. If you remove enchanted gear, you will hurt non-casters far more than you will hurt casters. But don't take my word for it -- ask any of the players of non-casters with enchanted gear.

[BahamutZ3RO]

Tangent, but I think save gear is out of control here. Poor wizards gotta fall back on the cheap spells because everyone is immune to the fun ones!

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

Suggestion for enchanting... REMOVE IT!!!   

I am definitely grateful for the Developers that weighed balance when they implemented this system.

The system was long awaited, but I've only recently gotten closer to being one of the lucky higher end PCs to try this whole thing out.

When I do have such items created, they're really a gift to the module as I would want my PC's sword or whatever to outlast him and be something for others to RP about.

[APorg]

Tangent, but I think save gear is out of control here. Poor wizards gotta fall back on the cheap spells because everyone is immune to the fun ones!

To a degree, yes. Mostly because of enchanted gear. But what really exacerbates the disparity is the fact that there are almost no Ability-raising items to boost a caster's Int/Wis/Cha and therefore the DC of their spells.

So while a high level character can probably quite happily look at +4 or +5 universal saves without too much effort, you might -- but only if you're very luck -- find one +1 Int item for your wizard. The bias is on saves, as you say; and that makes Wizards fall back to spells that don't require saves.

[tzaeru]

Actually yeah, if you grind yourself full saving throw gear including enchanted gear, your will 8 barbarian with feats and some spellcraft can have up to 80% chance in saving Hold Monster by maxed intelligence, highest roll empowered fox's cunning wizard.

That's just silly and only one-dimensionalizes the combat casters can do, since now you just have to spam some 3 Empowered Isaacs and a Horrid Wilting, giving you a victory 100% of time if you succeed at casting them (which, with Time Stop, you always will)

The saving throw gear is seriously off the roof at higher levels with enchanting added. The real problem, I feel, is that still, clerics (and to a degree, wizards) do not need a fighter throughout the low and even high levels. But fighter needs the aforementioned; Nowadays, it is possible to do low level dungeons and gather enough money to get supplies that allows a fighter (preferrably with skill dumping through rogue levels) to manage himself to a degree, but it's very time-consuming, requires good knowledge of the server and NWN mechanics and as such is not realistic to majority of players.

I feel the enchanting system didn't greatly aid in PvM, but only altered PvP balance with how it made DC stuff almost useless at high levels, unless we're talking of Implosion or Druid.

[APorg]

Well fighters and other high AB types are pretty damn useful for higher level dungeons where you're facing really tough bastards with AC in the high 40s. Clerics can still fight these but Divine Power has a short duration and can be dispelled... same with Tenser's. But that's another tangent.

[BalorVale]

Greater Sanctuary allows for clerics to step away from the combat and then buff themselves up

Greater Sanctuary can still be dispelled by a Disjoiner potion. Failing that, a Fighter can probably retreat rather than stick around like a turkey awaiting to be slaughtered.

DC 30's that are thrown out with Hold Person's and Slay Livings

How do you get DC30 on level 2 & level 5 spells?

Disjunction potions don't stop instant death.

I think you're overblowing the capability of Clerics. Yes, they're a very powerful class. At the same time if you're going to use the premise that a buffed cleric is always going to beat an unbuffed fighter, that's not a particularly helpful example to study the nitty-gritty detail where enchantment can tilt the balance.

It's usually a + 8 at High levels even with save bonuses, dead.

Assuming a Wisdom of 10, a high level Rogue or Fighter with can have +4 from class, +4 will from Feats, and anywhere up to +13 or +14 from equipment on the up side with enchanted gear. Of course that's quite unlikely but +6 is not such a stretch. So erring on the moderate side, we're looking at a Will save of +14.

I don't see how you're getting DC30s on these Cleric spells. Maybe a buffed Cleric using level 9 spells could get DC30s but weaker spells are probably not going to get that high.

The balancing problem does not lie in gear it is hardwired into the classes

The problem with your balancing argument is that you're using scenarios in which the Cleric has already won.

Enchanting just makes overpowered classes more overpowered even though it does close the gap if a fighter has the gear and a cleric doesn't, if they both have it the balancing (Which is only a slight balance) is gone.

The problem is you misunderstand the PCs' motivations and you assume the situation is equal for both; whereas it's not. A smart Fighter/Rogue player will quickly aim to get enchanted gear because at mid levels (i.e. around level 14), it represents great value for money. For a cleric, getting enchanted gear is a speed-bump that slows them down getting higher level spells. Thus a cleric is often going to get enchanted gear as late as possible (if at all). Those are very different motivations.

It's not a level field. If you remove enchanted gear, you will hurt non-casters far more than you will hurt casters. But don't take my word for it -- ask any of the players of non-casters with enchanted gear.

You have combatted my high level point, but perhaps combat my other point that it damages the "Low-Magic" feel of the server for a fighter or any other class with a +3 Sword? And trust me, I know of players throwing out DC 32 Bigby's, it's possible. Try a Derro Cleric. +6 to wisdom? Even with a CR 2, let's do some math

10+5(Slay living)+2-3 (Empowered Owls)+ Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) + 2+ Wisdom score maxed at 1st adding racials (18+6 going to look more around 22 at max, 22+6=28= +9 Modifier.) Total equals around 29 for just slay living, Finger of death? Any High level spell such as word of faith to leave them dazed for 4 rounds so the cleric can buff up?

This is of course an obscene example being that it only has one idea in mind to maximize DC's, but it's still possible.

Anyways, build talk is moot. How does Enchanting assist in the core principle of a "Low-Magic" setting?

[Telkar]

@originally tzaeru

Don't forget the bigby spells. Some of them have a very good chance of instant win on anyone.

On the subject itself I've little to add. It's fine as it is. If anything, I'm excited to see other additions to the system. Also like someone suggested, making lower lvl enchanting available might be cool. It could require a strong magical essence instead of a radiant one, and maybe lvl 10+. Also could add elemental essences into the mix for weapons and you could have say, +1 enchantment and elemental dmg resulting from that.

[BahamutZ3RO]

As someone who was recently a low level wizard, I can assure you that they do need a fighter type in front of them. Very few people seem to go the pure route though.

[APorg]

Anyways, build talk is moot. How does Enchanting assist in the core principle of a "Low-Magic" setting?

Low Magic means that magic is not common place; not that magic is weak. On the contrary, there is a lot of very powerful magic in Ravenloft -- it's just not flaunted openly.

If you want to go down the "detrimental to the setting" angle, then I'd argue that you should focus on the PC stores that openly sell magical items in the Vallaki Outskirts rather than on the enchanted gear which remains the province of an obscure elite[1]. I mean it's not like enchanted gear is talked about openly or being sold in open markets... so I don't really agree with your assessment over the low magic point either. Of all the things that detract from PotM and Ravenloft's "low magic" status, the enchantment craft is not one of them.

1.	"Elite" here merely in the sense of being higher level and more powerful

[tzaeru]

10+5(Slay living)+2-3 (Empowered Owls)+ Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy) + 2+ Wisdom score maxed at 1st adding racials (18+6 going to look more around 22 at max, 22+6=28= +9 Modifier.) Total equals around 29 for just slay living, Finger of death? Any High level spell such as word of faith to leave them dazed for 4 rounds so the cleric can buff up?

Word of Faith makes them blinded, which can be removed with drinking down Lesser Restoration potion.

If you wanted to maximize saving throws without sacrificing combat abilities (at least not more than what is required to quick slot swap gear) for level 8 Barbarian with 8 wisdom, you could have Will vs Mind-Affecting spells at level 15 around.. 5 (base) - 1 (8 wis) + 2 (Belt of Stability) + 2 (10 Spellcraft) + 3 (Enchanted Full Plate) + 1 (Strong Soul) + 2 (Iron Will) + 2 (Enchanted Shield) + 2 (Amulet of Universal Saving Throws +2) + 2 (2x Rings of 1 universal saving throw) + 1 (Blessed Knightly Cloak) + 2 (Those fancy enchanted boots) = 23.

That's a lot for someone with 8 wisdom and pure barbarian and this isn't counting in the rarest of items nor all items there is.

[Crimson Shuriken]

Personally I can make good argument that clerics are not very good in pvp at all, if I am tasked with overcoming an opponent I would rather be on one of my two high level rogues than any of my (very diverse in various cleric builds) clerics. They're strong sure, but with all of the various nerfs that have occured to clerics over the years they're very beatable and they've really only one way to come out on top, and its one disjoiner away from squishiness death. I would rather have an equal level non cleric with +3 varnishes, decent loot, good potion stock, and some way to affect a dispel or two. If you account for aforementioned non cleric having enchanted gear then its truly a no contest in the hands of equally skilled players.

Truly none of that matters to me at all. Clerics only fight fights that matter to their dogma if played right, so running afoul of clerics all the time is unrealistic and one of those oft mentioned and rarely seen happenstances.

The enchanting system is fine as it is. Buffed by spells will always be superior, Other than for saving throws (another thing I consider to be over rated in impact past a certain point) I don't really find any enchanted gear worth xp outside of large two handed weapons' extra damage.

And just the potential for fighters or barbarians that have a good to great Will save is enough to justify the enchanting system. You have no drawback mechanically that makes any one class debillitating in gameplay so it can be a choice at character creation aimed more at roleplay to fit the concept, and concept to fit the roleplay. That's why I like the system.

[APorg]

That's a lot for someone with 8 wisdom and pure barbarian and this isn't counting in the rarest of items nor all items there is.

The enchanted full plate is going to be +2 and the boots are going to be +1. I don't think boots do much for Will save. Though you did forget Falkovnian Talon Bracers (+2 Will).

[Crimson Shuriken]

Oh, and in my opinion the only thing that makes clerics tough enough to pose any sort of risk is their ability to recoup their entire HPs back, a few times. I think there is a bit of a strawman line of thinking bringing clerics into the gear discussion again. They don't get +4 vestment until 16, and they don't get deflection any better than your trusty neighborhood brooch of shield until way high level. Long story short AC buff advantage is negligible over items until really high level. And attack bonus wise, Divine Favor was finally nerfed as it should have been, so its been decreased over its once lofty heights. They're still good for one fight, but very hittable and they lack discipline and are very suseptible to sneak attacks in a prone or reflex based spells hold. They are "just a class" on potm nowadays, with Heal they can cover their cracks a bit but they have them. Divine Power is about the only way they can hit my non caster's ACs and that will either run out or be dispelled by a good player.  [/cleric opining by me]

[tzaeru]

A bit off-topic, but the domains can make a huge difference. Cleric with Haste and Improved invisibility is way above a cleric that has either; As is a cleric with Stoneskin and Barkskin.. Rebalancing them would be awesome.

But yeah, all in all I think enchanted gear is mostly fine. A bit high on saving throws, perhaps needlessly so, but it's not game-breaking; On the other hand, I don't think it much changes meleer survivability either; You'll want a cleric at the highest level dungeons (that is, Perfidus) anyway so your +3 AC armors and shields get Vestment'd regardless.

[EberronBruce]

Each class has its strengths and weaknesses. The reason I brought up clerics and paladins is their primary strengths give them a huge advantage over the basic monster archetype in the module. They also can wear the best armor around as well. Example of this can be a paladin's bless weapon spell, which is hell of useful and bypasses most low level DRs. Also given the fact that holy water is up at the wizard tower which isn't exactly reachable for lowbies who I believe need it the most. That's beside the point. The point is certain classes like clerics are not gear related classes so much. Fighters/Rogues/Barbarians are, which in my opinion, should be more common than paladins or clerics.

Fighters, Rogues, and Barbarians have their roles and purposes. The enchanted gear helps them fill those roles better in high level areas. Not all clerics, wizards, or other casters buff up fighters or support them. I see many cleric buff up themselves ignore the group at large and go in fighting. Then I seen some player who play good clerics that support the group. But the first is more common than the latter. The enchanted items help the noncasters hold their own in a team especially against PvM. I had my buffs strip and being a fighter he relies a lot on potions, which can be strip easier than spells from a caster. The enchanted gear doesn't take away the challenge of the dungeons just helps add to your survival.

If you compare it to the dungeons in Vallaki are than yeah the items will help you kick butt, but again being level 14 does a lot to do with that in the area. But if you take areas like Har Akir, Hazlan, Perfius, and soon to be Sithicus. You would wish in your team that you have every advantage you can get to survive those areas. (I have yet to go to Perifus, but I heard its extremely difficult)

Stripping the enchanting system will hurt the noncasting classes the most, who is the most reliant on their gear.

Here is analogy. Take two soldiers, give both of them a knife. They are considered equal. Give one a M16 give the other a musket. Which guy would you want on your side in a fight? M16 doesnt make him a super hero, but makes him able to be more effective in a fight versus the musket.

[eyeofpestilence]

To enchant you need:

- Someone with the sufficient arcane levels to carry out the enchanting.

- A target with with the minimum level requirement.

- +5 magical essence.

- Crafted equipment to be enchanted. (As well as a smith to craft)

So there you have a lot of planning and preparation involved in the above.

Now, maybe I'm just not as involved in dungeon grinding and loot grabbing as much as I used to be but that's a lot to get hold of and plan out for most people, even the well connected ones. For the most part I can't recall the last time I went on a +5 reagent hunt and only have 1 character who uses an enchanted weapon, which is a godsend in keeping up with casters in DM events and dungeons, the latter of which he doesn't really partake in anymore.

I don't think there's an incredible glut in enchanted weapons flying about nor do I think they make a character invincible since there's plenty of ways to bypass saves and AC. If you're 24/7 powerhousing to get a full set of enchanted gear then you're probably not approaching the spirit of the game as intended. Most people are more concerned with playing the game and not what loot other people are getting since at the end of the day loot does not maketh the man nor bring the adventures and comrades.

Agree with this.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I too agree with Badelaire's post. Well said.

[Smitehammer]

Just thought I'd include my suggestion for enchanting.  I'm cool with the enchanting of weapons or armor requiring a 14 or whatever to donate Xp and whatnot.  What I think is needed, however, is something for all these characters that want to do enchanting before level 14 / finding a level 14 friend or whatever.  So - recharging items with charges.  Staff running low on 'magic missile' or whatever?  Just use some sort of magical catalyst to enchant that sucker back! I have a level 9 charisma based character with no craft because I neglected the attribute that allowed our human ancestors to develop tools and medicines and discover the secrets of chemistry.... constitution.

[Mayvind]

From person that was killed 1 hit by enchanting great axe, i say it is too uber for low magic setting. And POTM have long past Low Magic setting everyone have enchanting weapon or armor. the amount of saves enchanting armor, boots combine are super super super, and frankly maybe we should up the level instead of removing it.

instead of level 14 to sacrifice XP change it to level 17 instead the enchanting become less and rare enough and not impossible for high level. 17 is magic number because it is also most caster level 9 spell progress, making a hard choice between enchanting or losing level 9 spell for them, hard choice trust me.

[EberronBruce]

From person that was killed 1 hit by enchanting great axe, i say it is too uber for low magic setting. And POTM have long past Low Magic setting everyone have enchanting weapon or armor. the amount of saves enchanting armor, boots combine are super super super, and frankly maybe we should up the level instead of removing it.

instead of level 14 to sacrifice XP change it to level 17 instead the enchanting become less and rare enough and not impossible for high level. 17 is magic number because it is also most caster level 9 spell progress, making a hard choice between enchanting or losing level 9 spell for them, hard choice trust me.

Doing that will seriously nerf the classes that are not casters. Trust me it is pretty hard even with such enchanted items.

[Crimson Shuriken]

I just would like to point out nearly every long term player here that has reached high levels over and over and have pretty much seen and done every variation of party and dungeon are generally players that have played non-casters a hell of a lot. And I am not directing that at you Bruce as much as in general, when you say non-casters have it rough who are you saying it to exactly? EyeofPestilance, me, Shadymerchant, Iconoclast, Sheltatha, (yes, even) Mayvind, Hellspanda, Ciaran, Dutchy, and many many others have played non casters to high level. Its really quite common, and in some previous eras it truly was an unbalanced world, this current era is honestly a rogues world if anything. Varnishes and loot table potions have greatly evened that playing field.  In fact, I would say at the highest levels that non-casters are damn well represented. Good clerics for Perfidus are damn hard to find, good tanks for Perfidus are damned hard to find but rogues? Lol, take your pick since they abound.  I like perfidus, but not for its xp or loot, its honestly because its the one place that playing a cleric like a fighter or anything else like a martial class won't cut it. You need good, real meleers, with good real buffers and healers. in fact most variations of Perfidus I've done in the last 3 years have essentially been me on cleric and someone like Shadymerchant and BadBud on beefcake since such characters are hard to find that know how to party effectively. Hint: if you are relying on gear, you will suck. Even enchanted gear don't mean bollocks after level 15 or so in PvP or PvM. You need teamwork, enchanted gear does not change that much, and its the truth. And I'm hopeful that Sithicus provides more Perfidus level meritocratic party play where roles are filled well or all are killed well. Enchanted weapon extra damage is nice, so are extra saves, but nice and required are not the same thing.