enchanting suggestion

[herkles]

Hello,

I could be wrong, but afaik, you need a 'victim' of level 14 of higher to do enchanting with. Is it possible to have people less then level 14 neccessary to use enchanting with?

sincerely,

-herkles

[Mrjunkie]

It's meant to require a higher level so it doesnt become a mundane thing

[Lucadia]

lower levels would quickly regain the exp then a higher level would. market would soon be flooded

[herkles]

doesn't have to be low level, but how many level 14 people are around? I thought maybe around level 8+ or 10+ would be better?

[Lucadia]

The fact you could quickly get to lv 8-10 in a month, this would not stop enchanting from suddenly flooding the market with those that have know how. They would become experience batteries and considering how powerful enchanted gear is, there be almost no reason to have any other gear

[Gilad Abrams]

That might be slightly exaggerated. I doubt people are going to sell enchanted gear at lvl 10 any more then they do now.  I don't believe their would be any flood, just increased access which would not be a bad thing.

[Lucadia]

if lv 10's could make enchanted gear, you would see everyone have it. Im not understanding how to explain this concept any better though

[Gilad Abrams]

It's not that people can't understand the concept, it's  why that's automatically a problem that maybe no everyone is getting.  Also it's not as easy as 123 the components arnt just lying around everywhere. It would most surly lead to more people having access to good gear. I just don't see that as a world ending problem. People would enchant for themselves, they would not be making large quantities of enchanted goods for sale.

[herkles]

suggestion for the other crafts to prevent flooding!

herbalism: requires to be a druid
alchemy: arcane class
blacksmith: non-mage class((multi-classing will work))

or! how about we remove all crafting componets from around vallaki!

this should have a similar way to reduce flooding of crafting right, after all it is supposed to be for high levels.

edit: the above is semi in jest to show that I think requiring +14 is kind of silly 

[Lucadia]

You are talking about access to some of the very best gear you could ever aquire, a level 10 could easily make one piece of gear per week, then add in the multitude of alts. There would be no reason for items that merchants aquire to sell . They would certainly sell "enchants", considering Iv only heard of..one low level getting the ability to buy enchanted gear from somebody else, not as frequent as you may think it is.

Access to gear at such a low level, you would suddenly see complaints about dungeons not being challenging enough, players wishing the bar raised, the lower levels who dont have gear get upset..terrible cycle

[BalorVale]

Enchanting as it is is a very enigmatic field. To say "Low levels would just gain the levels back faster" is true, but it's because they need much less experience to level up so that falls flat, the leg you could stand on is that creatures give lower levels more experience and that's how it could stand. Enchanting provides very powerful gear, it makes sense although it is ironic for a server that prides itself on "low magic" would even have an enchanting system is hilarious to me, and not to mention it makes Sorcerers and Wizards more powerful then most classes being that they can level every proffession to maximum, even if it does take them longer. Actually no it doesn't with haste herbalism becomes simple, as does mining, killing deer for leatherworking and almost all other proffesions except maybe alchemy.

Personally I don't think enchanting should even be in the server at all, it promotes what I like to call "Character Attachment" where people will fully enchant their gear become level 20 and then just remain. Forever, not really adding but not really taking away, just stagnant. If this is a low magic server, keep it low magic.

Lowering the level for enchanting is not the answer unfortunatly, that just promotes more of the above, and decreases the feeling of a "low magic" server, I would suggest the opposite, the complete removal of it. As it stands now, enchanted gear is too powerful. Want proof?

You are talking about access to some of the very best gear you could ever aquire, a level 10 could easily make one piece of gear per week, then add in the multitude of alts. There would be no reason for items that merchants aquire to sell . They would certainly sell "enchants", considering Iv only heard of..one low level getting the ability to buy enchanted gear from somebody else, not as frequent as you may think it is.

Access to gear at such a low level, you would suddenly see complaints about dungeons not being challenging enough, players wishing the bar raised, the lower levels who dont have gear get upset..terrible cycle

This comes from a high level, telling you that "Dungeons are hardly a challenge" I like difficult games and challenges, forcing people to work together to win, if enchanting gear dissolves this and promotes "lone wolves" Kill it with fire. This is further evidence driving the point home.

[herkles]

I agree with Balorvale actually now that I think about it and luca explains how it is the best gear.

suggesttion: remove it

[Gilad Abrams]

I disagree that some low lvl disaster would ensue. Simply seems like something to keep the toys in the hands of the few. The point about people hoarding their gear and never leaving, becoming stagnant is a good one. Lowering the bar by a couple levels would help to lessen this. If its a little easier to get, it's a little less valuable. Supply and demand.

[BalorVale]

I disagree that some low lvl disaster would ensue. Simply seems like something to keep in toys in the hand dog the few. The point about people hoarding their gear and never leaving, becoming stagnant is a good one. Lowering the bar by a couple levels would help to lessen this. If its a little easier to get, it's a little less valuable. Supply and demand.

Less valuable and therefore trivial, not a supply and demand of hoarding but rather a lack of challenge is what my point is, that dungeons would just become trivial and promote super hero players.

Oh dear here I come again with my Pen and Paper experiences. Our Dungeon master gave us an item that allowed us to fly for one dungeon we were in, it was meant to be used to reach places and land on high platforms, however our rogue found it could be exploited by flying constantly and getting sneak attacks constantly from above with her shortbow.

Super hero Characters are the pox to gothic horror settings, giving people rediculously good gear at any level is denying the core principle of the servers "Low-magic" feel. It's why it is the way it is, but unfortunatly now only high levels recieve the gear, and they put alot of work into their characters, now they put even more with this enchanted gear. They are going to feel attached because they spent a TON of time getting this gear and their character the best it can possibly be, they aren't going to give that up that easily.

Enchanting promotes:

- Stagnant characters, that wish to remain the way they are because they are the best they can be.

- Harshly combats the servers "Low Magic" core ideal

- Creates "Super Hero" Characters attacking the horror feel.

- Encourages "Lone Wolves" to badass their way through dungeons and breaking up teamwork.

- Promotes Grinding solely for exp to gain these items in a server that is RP driven this can be poison.


Enchanting provides:

-A way for high levels to get top-tier gear in order to combat further challenges.

-Creates a price on the best gear, that is exp based to discourage market flooding.


Problem/Fixable solution:

-Nerf the current enchanting system, this is low magic there should be no items above a +2, anything greater should be right out or considered "Legendary" such as an artifact.

-Remove it completely, compensate those that lost exp via enhanting with their levels returned, if that will put them above level 20, compensate them with a like item as well. Boots will get Lotus greaves or something balanced to that nature.

[Gilad Abrams]

I can't say I would care very much if they removed the enchantment system as long as they stripped
EVERYONE of it equally. Also I think that  nerfing it is fine as long as its retroactive and affects everyone. However if your going to have it, it should not nessesarly be only for the few, because the system can and is exploited here and it's a little elitist to say that "I can have this but we can't let others have it because then its bad for the server" it's either bad or its not is my point.

[Reaver]

I agree that enchanted items are powerful.. extremely so, BUT I would hate to see them removed, as its the closest thing there is to help balance the mundane classes against the magic users.  Removing it would simply lead to more clerics, mages and bards who do not need gear as much to be efficient, and would not truly decrease the 'magic' on the server, only the magic items even further, leading to more magic using PCs...

[Lucadia]

so if they are not willing lower the level for you get better gear, then your answer is that if you cant have it, nobody can?

[EberronBruce]

I have experimented with the crafting system here thoroughly.  I learn a lot about the enchanting system. Take in consideration of this. It took me over 6 months to become a master smith, that is because I started it at level 2 or 3. Getting the materials like iron was a challenge at times not to mention the coal mines. :/

I do not play a primary caster class, and I find it very difficult at times to find casters to support my character. Also take in the timezone that I am more compatible the Aussies.  So not an option all the time to party up with someone. Also, the enchanting xp cost is really a lot, 13,000 xp for a double bladed sword, 8,000 for chainmail, 6,000 for helms and boots. That cost of xp is really high. Its been over 3 months and I am still trying to make up the xp cost from my last enchantment. Also, take note that it took me over a year to reach level 14. It is really difficult to reach that level and at those levels xp for me is extremely hard to get in mass. The only way I get any xp is through RP.

Also take some classes are extremely powerful, like clerics here. I seen a cleric and paladin at like level 9 or 10 solo the Terg crypts. I can't do it at his current level, if I tried it would cost so much resources and I would have so much to risk that it is really not worth it at all. Just one trip alone would deplete all my resources and I would spend months trying to gather them up again so he could go out with a group.

Now with enchanting, even though it put me behind in levels, it makes my character to be effective enough to help out a party. Yes, he is like a super hero near Vallaki because he is like double the level of the average level there, not because he has enchanted gear. This is not the case in areas like Har Akir and Hazlan. There he relies on a group and the group relies on him. Also, given his build and weapon he uses, not having an enchanting system would put him at odds with other characters his level who based their character of loot tables. The enchanting system allows for some balance particularly for fighters. I think the system xp donor should have lower level than 14. But not level 10. People can cram to 10 fast, maybe 11 or 12. Right at the cusp when it gets difficult. Also those who spend time crafting don't level as fast as those who don't.

All is fair I think you have to look at locations, those at level 14 are able to explore areas with a lot more challenge like Har Akir, and there are some monsters in Har Akir that need a +3 weapon to bypass DR so the +2 on the weapon doesn't cut the mustard. But ya in Vallaki, those items seem godlike but the average level of the PC is under level 10 there.

When thinking about this topic a whole spectrum should be examined. Like the xp cost of enchanting, the materials needed, the ideal places for such a PC to adventure, the noncasting PCs who would benefit the most from it, ect..

[BalorVale]

so if they are not willing lower the level for you get better gear, then your answer is that if you cant have it, nobody can?

That's a very immature way of looking at it. No. I'm asking to promote difficulty and teamwork, I'm not a toddler throwing a tantrum about equipment I don't have. I have several high level characters, some have enchanted gear. I think they are too powerful.

That is true Eberron, you do bring up a good point. Balancing fighters in a low magic server is a challenge, but I do not believe enchanting is the answer. Another suggestion could be to add some more feats to make fighters a little more resiliant to their casting counterparts? Perhaps a buff to smithing is in order, making the best weapons wieldy and odd, too difficult for a cleric to use thus giving fighter acess to a few weapons that others cannot pick us (Ala "Fighter Only") As of Right now, a cleric can enchant his equipment same as a fighter can, so balancing is in order, Why would I make a fighter? (Power wise) When a cleric just does everything better? Even with the obscene number of feats, but giving both you and a cleric a +3 Sword doesn't balance anything, it just makes it even, and the Cleric will be the stronger choice, this is a shame, I would love to see some of the Fighter PnP feats shine, (Shield Specialization, Shield Sling, War Cry) Enchanting just doesn't provide this balancing.

And to Answer your question Gilad, yes it would be retro-active and effect all players. We don't want to further the problem by having a few "chosen one" High levels with enchanted gear.

[EberronBruce]

This may burst your bubble. But you have to take into account the environment in which the engine used to run the module. It is using a computer engine of the NWN format. You have serious limitations on it. In PnP you could practically do anything or make any feats you want, it is only limited to the players.

In a computer there are lots of limitations all in which have to be considered before implementing. I proposed a feat once for the rogue class to take that would add half their sneak damage to undead, however, no matter how many like the idea or how good it is, the engine won't allow this without serious problems. The devs consider many things one of which is performance. We must give them props because as far as lag and performance of the module it is pretty darn good given all the customizations so far. When you propose extra feats, there is a lot of limitations on what can be done or how it is to be done and not effect the performance of the module.

I would take the enchanting system over throwing in feats that cause the server to lag and crash. Fighters are not the only class that is gear based, Barbarians and rogues also. I am more favorable in favoring pure classes than a mix class. But if you remove the ability for these classes gear to meet the challenges that they need face, then you will start to get mix classes because people would have little options. Just because they have enchanted gear doesn't mean they are any more powerful then their casting counter parts. Also note that this enchanted gear are much more prized amongst these classes than they are of casting classes. Would a cleric be willing to loose a level of spells for an enchanted sword or is that level of spells more important to them?

I seen this on every server, people study the server and then build power toons based off the server. I seen a small army of crossbow snipers on BGTSS for NWN2 because they can used feats and ect to build a toon that does 80 points of damage per hit. People look for ways to make powerbuilds. I am more favored towards character concepts than trying to make the best powerbuild, but limit options will get limited builds.

I modeled my character off a Valenar warrior because I saw a double bladed scimitar, but found out that the two weapon feats will not apply to the weapon. Also talking to others said it was a poor weapon to go with in the module because it cant be made and there are not loot drops from it. Thus this limited a choice and character concept. That is why I went with double bladed swords. In my time here I seen a hell of lot of clerics and paladins, probably more than I can count. That is because they have the best abilities to succeed here. When people see Ravenloft, a lot of them think paladin.  I seen a lot of them solo things that if I tried to do, I would burn a lot of resources and make it a complete waste. 

[Gilad Abrams]

so if they are not willing lower the level for you get better gear, then your answer is that if you cant have it, nobody can?

I would say that your argument is for the exact reserve of this: don't give to everyone, just a few people, lets keep the whole process out of the hands of 90% of pcs. I find that just as rediculas as letting no one have it. As mentioned a 10 or 11 lvl fighter could really use access to something like that early in order to remain viable.  And not everyone on this server grinds their way up to 14 in a month and some of them would probibly like the chance to get nice stuff as well.  I'm not terribly invested in the arguement either way but it strikes me as just.......off when someone says that something is too powerful for people to have but it's ok if they have it.  Also I'd like to point out that thier was  no minimum level in changing a pc to an mpc. That costs the pc xp but inreturn their power is increased. It's the same principle as the enchanting system. And while I know it's not a direct apples for apples comparison the principles the same. Your giving up something valuable to gain something powerful and hopefully come out better on the whole in the long run.

[DM Erebus]

What about the prospect of a second tier of enchanting (as there is multiple tiers of other crafts) open to lower levels, for lesser-powered equipment?

[APorg]

Enchanting just doesn't provide this balancing.

Bear in mind that you're comparing apples and oranges here. Enchanted gear is useful for many reasons, even for spell casters.

A cleric who's buffed up is very powerful and will match a Fighter in enchanted gear, yes, but you're glossing over some key differences -- differences which are important motivations for people who seek out enchanted gear.

1) Enchanted gear doesn't need to be buffed to be awesome. The cleric needs to buff, which means he can be ambushed pre-buffing.

2) Equally, enchanted gear can't be dispelled; buffs can. (Hello Disjoiner potions.)

3) Enchanted gear provides "side" benefits to Skills and Saves that are very significant.

The little secret that nobody really talks about is that the best reason to get enchanted gear is for Saves -- enchanted armour will get you +2 universal, boots and helms will give you another +1 universal each -- and of course more on top of that. So that's +4 universal saves from thee item of gear that can't be lost without player consent or DM involvement.

Of course Clerics can and do seek out enchanted gear from time to time (though Fighters, Rogues and various such builds are my PC's main customers). But in my experience it's flat out wrong to say that enchanted gear does not level the divide between non-casters and casters. There are PCs out there who are effectively immune to certain Save-based spells because of the bonuses on their enchanted gear. That's a big factor to consider indeed.

Just my 2c from one of the server's current leading enchanters ;P

[BalorVale]

Enchanting just doesn't provide this balancing.

Bear in mind that you're comparing apples and oranges here. Enchanted gear is useful for many reasons, even for spell casters.

A cleric who's buffed up is very powerful and will match a Fighter in enchanted gear, yes, but you're glossing over some key differences -- differences which are important motivations for people who seek out enchanted gear.

1) Enchanted gear doesn't need to be buffed to be awesome. The cleric needs to buff, which means he can be ambushed pre-buffing.

2) Equally, enchanted gear can't be dispelled; buffs can. (Hello Disjoiner potions.)

3) Enchanted gear provides "side" benefits to Skills and Saves that are very significant.

The little secret that nobody really talks about is that the best reason to get enchanted gear is for Saves -- enchanted armour will get you +2 universal, boots and helms will give you another +1 universal each -- and of course more on top of that. So that's +4 universal saves from thee item of gear that can't be lost without player consent or DM involvement.

Of course Clerics can and do seek out enchanted gear from time to time (though Fighters, Rogues and various such builds are my PC's main customers). But in my experience it's flat out wrong to say that enchanted gear does not level the divide between non-casters and casters. There are PCs out there who are effectively immune to certain Save-based spells because of the bonuses on their enchanted gear. That's a big factor to consider indeed.

Just my 2c from one of the server's current leading enchanters ;P

Enchanting being available to high levels only I would have to respectfully disagree, Greater Sanctuary allows for clerics to step away from the combat and then buff themselves up, plus if they have anything with a will save the fighter is toast it has a very nasty +6 will maximum, even with the +4 Universal, 10 is tiny compared to DC 30's that are thrown out with Hold Person's and Slay Livings, Disjunction potions don't stop instant death. Rogues don't even have a chance against a will save. It's usually a + 8 at High levels even with save bonuses, dead. The balancing problem does not lie in gear it is hardwired into the classes and Enchanting just makes overpowered classes more overpowered even though it does close the gap if a fighter has the gear and a cleric doesn't, if they both have it the balancing (Which is only a slight balance) is gone.

[Badelaire]

To enchant you need:

- Someone with the sufficient arcane levels to carry out the enchanting.

- A target with with the minimum level requirement.

- +5 magical essence.

- Crafted equipment to be enchanted. (As well as a smith to craft)

So there you have a lot of planning and preparation involved in the above.

Now, maybe I'm just not as involved in dungeon grinding and loot grabbing as much as I used to be but that's a lot to get hold of and plan out for most people, even the well connected ones. For the most part I can't recall the last time I went on a +5 reagent hunt and only have 1 character who uses an enchanted weapon, which is a godsend in keeping up with casters in DM events and dungeons, the latter of which he doesn't really partake in anymore.

I don't think there's an incredible glut in enchanted weapons flying about nor do I think they make a character invincible since there's plenty of ways to bypass saves and AC. If you're 24/7 powerhousing to get a full set of enchanted gear then you're probably not approaching the spirit of the game as intended. Most people are more concerned with playing the game and not what loot other people are getting since at the end of the day loot does not maketh the man nor bring the adventures and comrades.