A -Big- Problem I have.

[tzaeru]

Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people like the Vampire's and Drow character's players just don't care too much about it.

But what if your character is forced to it?

My drow was: Simply since he was too bitter and grudged towards elves to live anywhere near them and because he was met by extreme hostility on surface.

Of course it wasn't at all to his liking to live in Drain, but he had no choice - so it is where he moved. That your character doesn't care for it shouldn't mean that you don't. When the character does have to choose between living in Drain or potentially losing his life, this only serves to create an interesting dilemma for the character which grows and changes him/her.

And well, with lower OCRs, it's not impossible to get enough influence even cross-class to pull through. Also for disguises.. It's not really realistic that one could craft a passable fake face mask in this period and we don't have disguise spells. Having a hood tugged low and a scarf over your face is only going to be even more suspicious than sporting your dark skin and white hair openly.

I'm sorry, but the hostility and xenophobia is an integral part of Ravenloft. It isn't meant to cripple anyone and there are choices to work around it, even if those choices weren't to into a character's liking.

[Wertman025]

I don't know the details but it really sounds like you're shooting yourself in the foot. You're playing a race that is meant to be funneled into the Drain but you're refusing to go into the Drain because it's against your character. Nobody said Drizzt Do'Urden had it easy, being a good-aligned Drow.

Noone talks about Drizz, ever. EVER! He didn't happen.

Hah, I enjoyed the books but I can -totally- agree about wanting to repress it.

But. Yes I know becasue of this my guy is going to have it hard. I just want a slightly easier system so that you won't be -stabbed- on sight if your trying to go undercover. Am I going to deal with it? Yes I will. But I -will- grieve about it just to get it out there. 

Thank you all for responding to this by the way!

[Wertman025]

Also I'm pretty sure a lot of people like the Vampire's and Drow character's players just don't care too much about it.

But what if your character is forced to it?

My drow was: Simply since he was too bitter and grudged towards elves to live anywhere near them and because he was met by extreme hostility on surface.

Of course it wasn't at all to his liking to live in Drain, but he had no choice - so it is where he moved. That your character doesn't care for it shouldn't mean that you don't. When the character does have to choose between living in Drain or potentially losing his life, this only serves to create an interesting dilemma for the character which grows and changes him/her.

And well, with lower OCRs, it's not impossible to get enough influence even cross-class to pull through. Also for disguises.. It's not really realistic that one could craft a passable fake face mask in this period and we don't have disguise spells. Having a hood tugged low and a scarf over your face is only going to be even more suspicious than sporting your dark skin and white hair openly.

I'm sorry, but the hostility and xenophobia is an integral part of Ravenloft. It isn't meant to cripple anyone and there are choices to work around it, even if those choices weren't to into a character's liking.

First of it's not that he doesn't want to go down there, it is that he refuses it. From what they told him that he should get out of here and live in the sewers he won't give them that satisfaction of finding out he hid in the sewers. He would rather die than let people like the Garda or the one who aided the guard have their way. Reason why he was ready and prepared to be hung. He is stubborn and prideful and I knew from the start he'd be in trouble with the guard. I wasn't expecting an instant 20 ocr from a 11-12 range just from one incident. Also instantly being attacked annoys me without a way to cover it up. Putting levels worth of effort just to make sure you aren't smashed to death isn't -fun- and doesn't help rp. Sure being on the edge of the law is, not being attacked by NPC's. They -can't- rp back.

Also I would disagree. Almost -everyone- wears a hood. It's freaking cold here. I think seeing magic, weird skin, large features, or demonic features are going to stick out -alot- more than someone trying to tug their hood down and walk past. You know?

And I enjoy the hostility and Zenophobia of the server, but only when you can respond to it. There is no DM controlling the NPC's all the time like a Tabletop game. I enjoy it when it's coming from players. An NPC just attacking without any way to stop the Radu Train from coming -does- -not- foster rp. Only an annoying player death just cause you couldn't get away fast enough.

[respawnaholic]

One thing semi-related....how is it a wizard and cleric who share the same spells will be treated entirely differently when casting them in the open? A magic or travel domain cleric will be able to cast some mutual spells as a wizard/sorc/bard can but the arcane classes will suddenly be screamed at being a witch but the divine class not.  

Um no...I can tell you firsthand NPCs react very badly to clerics casting spells of any kind even inside the Morninglord Church if, for example, you begin putting on your wards before stepping out for the night and forget Dimentu the Beggar isnt a member of the Morninglord Faction or having a dumb blonde moment and warding up outside Constantines lodge while forgetting there are fishermen everywhere. Instant 100 OCR.

I get the annoyance with guarda clairvoyance- how all of them can instantly recognise an outlaw and outcast, but the flip side is also as bad. The "I'm wearing a different colored cowl so now I'm perfectly and totally disguised." Its a little bit of lose/lose either way.

While were on the subject of this tho. I think one of my characters has a bug in that his outcast rating is over 100 but he can still enter the city freely, and even do business there. I was actually hiper sensative about avoiding populated areas for a little while until I got careless nd had the character parked next to some NPC guarda for several minutes without any of them reacting in any way.

[Wertman025]

One thing semi-related....how is it a wizard and cleric who share the same spells will be treated entirely differently when casting them in the open? A magic or travel domain cleric will be able to cast some mutual spells as a wizard/sorc/bard can but the arcane classes will suddenly be screamed at being a witch but the divine class not.  

Um no...I can tell you firsthand NPCs react very badly to clerics casting spells of any kind even inside the Morninglord Church if, for example, you begin putting on your wards before stepping out for the night and forget Dimentu the Beggar isnt a member of the Morninglord Faction or having a dumb blonde moment and warding up outside Constantines lodge while forgetting there are fishermen everywhere. Instant 100 OCR.

Which..well 100 OCR doesn't sound fun at all. That is a whole different ball game compared to my guys problem XD

[HellsPanda]

Well choosing influence and taking the feats to boost it is how your char learns to disguise him/her/itself. Without this skill and feats you just dont know how to effectivly do it.

[airengale]

There -needs- to be a way for characters to hide from OCR or it be done away with and left to players to signal the attacks, but that would ruin immersion as well.

The answer to this question is found in the formula of the Outcast Rating. Based on the race of your character, your charisma modifier, ever five levels in the influence skill rank, and what you do around NPCs, which may increase OCR, all effect your OCR.

The way to actively hide from OCR is to increase your influence rank; yes it's a mechanical approach to avoiding OCR for a largely mechanical implementation, and in my opinion a justified approach to avoiding and lowering your OCR. Influence is the combination of diplomacy(Persuade) and Bluff. If you're not skillful in either, then you're going to fail your attempts at avoiding confrontation and suspicion.

The OCR may not seem to you to facilitate Role Play, but in fact it does just that. People who were infamous in the past used to walk around freely in places where they were very infamous regardless of their attempts to hide it or not. The dms and players can not always be there to provide an Outcast with role play, but the OCR system enforces that you maintain that role play of being an outcast regardless of players and dm presence. Again, raising influence effects the OCR rating, your infamy will go down over time, and I believe if you have ranks in influence that you actually make bluff checks when you are near NPCs that would otherwise attack you on sight.

It seems to me that you're frustrated with not being able to be in the Outskirts due to OCR, however, there are locations where outcasts go. If you're character will not go to the sewers and rather die, then expect to die. It's excellent for you to Role Play a character who refuses to adapt because it can add such great dynamics to the environment, but don't expect to survive long. Don't assume that you won't discover role play outside of the Outskirts. There are plenty of people who do not return to the outskirts of Vallaki. You will find, especially if you go to the drain, that there is usually someone always there to role play with. There are ways to avoid confrontation other than a mechanical approach; just become familiar with the layout of the land and avoid the outskirts.

The only criticism I have to the OCR system is that the NPCs, like Radu, will typically outright kill you. I suggest that certain NPCs always be on subdue mode, because it does become immersion breaking when someone is suddenly killed in the middle of the outskirts for being too close to radu.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

...

The only criticism I have to the OCR system is that the NPCs, like Radu, will typically outright kill you. I suggest that certain NPCs always be on subdue mode, because it does become immersion breaking when someone is suddenly killed in the middle of the outskirts for being too close to radu.

It's a good point - the Vallaki guard NPCs actually use subdual mode by default but will make sure that it's added to Radu as well.

As for disguising yourself and concealing your identity, as people have already said, the system do actually allow for such behaviour. If you wear a hood or helmet, it'll allow you to 'bluff' your way through the civilized areas (with influence rolls). But also - once a certain dress up have been identified, that disguise no longer work but changing worn armour/helmet will then allow you to try to bluff your way through again. Acknowledged, it isn't a perfect system, but it isn't just trivial either.

[Wertman025]

...

The only criticism I have to the OCR system is that the NPCs, like Radu, will typically outright kill you. I suggest that certain NPCs always be on subdue mode, because it does become immersion breaking when someone is suddenly killed in the middle of the outskirts for being too close to radu.

It's a good point - the Vallaki guard NPCs actually use subdual mode by default but will make sure that it's added to Radu as well.

As for disguising yourself and concealing your identity, as people have already said, the system do actually allow for such behaviour. If you wear a hood or helmet, it'll allow you to 'bluff' your way through the civilized areas (with influence rolls). But also - once a certain dress up have been identified, that disguise no longer work but changing worn armour/helmet will then allow you to try to bluff your way through again. Acknowledged, it isn't a perfect system, but it isn't just trivial either.

And I'm not saying that the system doesn't work, I just find it flawed that there isn't more implemented to disguise ones self.

However, making Radu on Subdual mode would make me -so- much happier. I've had characters killed by him before, random problems with OCR spikes from attacks that occured like the zombie attack, and it just doesn't make sense. If anything this really would improve it by a lot and I'd feel a good deal better.

[Wertman025]

There -needs- to be a way for characters to hide from OCR or it be done away with and left to players to signal the attacks, but that would ruin immersion as well.

The answer to this question is found in the formula of the Outcast Rating. Based on the race of your character, your charisma modifier, ever five levels in the influence skill rank, and what you do around NPCs, which may increase OCR, all effect your OCR.

The way to actively hide from OCR is to increase your influence rank; yes it's a mechanical approach to avoiding OCR for a largely mechanical implementation, and in my opinion a justified approach to avoiding and lowering your OCR. Influence is the combination of diplomacy(Persuade) and Bluff. If you're not skillful in either, then you're going to fail your attempts at avoiding confrontation and suspicion.

The OCR may not seem to you to facilitate Role Play, but in fact it does just that. People who were infamous in the past used to walk around freely in places where they were very infamous regardless of their attempts to hide it or not. The dms and players can not always be there to provide an Outcast with role play, but the OCR system enforces that you maintain that role play of being an outcast regardless of players and dm presence. Again, raising influence effects the OCR rating, your infamy will go down over time, and I believe if you have ranks in influence that you actually make bluff checks when you are near NPCs that would otherwise attack you on sight.

It seems to me that you're frustrated with not being able to be in the Outskirts due to OCR, however, there are locations where outcasts go. If you're character will not go to the sewers and rather die, then expect to die. It's excellent for you to Role Play a character who refuses to adapt because it can add such great dynamics to the environment, but don't expect to survive long. Don't assume that you won't discover role play outside of the Outskirts. There are plenty of people who do not return to the outskirts of Vallaki. You will find, especially if you go to the drain, that there is usually someone always there to role play with. There are ways to avoid confrontation other than a mechanical approach; just become familiar with the layout of the land and avoid the outskirts.

The only criticism I have to the OCR system is that the NPCs, like Radu, will typically outright kill you. I suggest that certain NPCs always be on subdue mode, because it does become immersion breaking when someone is suddenly killed in the middle of the outskirts for being too close to radu.

Well perhaps I -was- a bit harsh saying it doesn't facilitate rp at all. However, from what I've noticed the majority of players either go to the drain in the end, or the outskirts. How many people go to Hazlan and just stay there waiting for someone to wander in to rp? I suppose what really gets on my nerves is instantly being smacked down and killed by Radu or other NPC's who most characters can barely stand up to...and it makes sense no DM wants NPC's being killed off easily. So thats why the mentioning of Radu no longer just killng off someone cause they were passing through.

I know rp can be facilitated by being an outlaw, I -know- that I am actually excited for that. The only thing I'm -not- excited for is having my characters skull caved in by someone he can't even respond to. That is not roleplay that is just death.

[Zhernebog]

I know rp can be facilitated by being an outlaw, I -know- that I am actually excited for that. The only thing I'm -not- excited for is having my characters skull caved in by someone he can't even respond to. That is not roleplay that is just death.

As an outlaw you may want to come to terms with the fact that statistically you probably will have your skull caved in before you can respond or roleplay. If not by Radu then by players. So I dont fault Radus behavior, I do fault him for being immune to reporting to the CC :b

[Wertman025]

Well. In the end I brought this up because it has bothered be. Do I expect my character to be treated differently because of all this, or be given a free pass because of it? Not at all. I just wanted to place my grievances about how the OCR worked out to the public. The fact that he is an outlaw is entirely an IC one and I want that to be dealt with via rp. I just hope I can find the rp and not be stuck in the sewer or the forest for hours waiting for night. Standing around waiting is not fun. I want to experience how this will affect not only him, but those he communicates with.

My only problem is with the instant kill charges that occur and the difficulties with finding rps. I mean. He did get kicked out before he could make a -single- friend really. But the friend part is IC'lly a problem not a system problem ((Which is the thing I'm grieving over)).

[tzaeru]

I've seen more players in the elven camp recently.

Far as I remember, the elven camp currently has no problem with dark skinned elves - they aren't aware of drow, but at times they've been quite suspicious of dark skinned elves due to in-game events.

[herkles]

There is also Dementlieu, which is rather tolerant of even magic.
There is hazlan, but unless seraphim's post has been changed by another DM, an elf is to be enslaved on entering hazlan. but it is tolerant of magic.
Blauestien, pirate place, seems to not mind magic or elves.
Sithicus is being worked on which is filled with elves
Har'akir is a desert but I think the natives would be accepting of magic
There is the elven and dwarven towns in barovia where one could hang out.
There is the drain, but that is caliban area in the sewers.


any other place I might have missed?

[Wertman025]

There is also Dementlieu, which is rather tolerant of even magic.
There is hazlan, but unless seraphim's post has been changed by another DM, an elf is to be enslaved on entering hazlan. but it is tolerant of magic.
Blauestien, pirate place, seems to not mind magic or elves.
Sithicus is being worked on which is filled with elves
Har'akir is a desert but I think the natives would be accepting of magic
There is the elven and dwarven towns in barovia where one could hang out.
There is the drain, but that is caliban area in the sewers.


any other place I might have missed?

I know there are places to go but how many people actually hang out there? Most people go to the Drain or the Outskirts from what I've seen and experienced.

And I understand rp can still be had, in fact I just got a good bit of rp. But running away from Guards that aren't players and I have to hide in the sewers alone for a about half an hour isn't fun :/

I know I sound primarily like a broken record but I'm just not really changing fully how I see it yet...well I have decreased how much I thought it could affect rp. But it still can harm it, at least for my damn prideful character. But it can also help it. Yes.

[herkles]

people hang out in other places, plus if you go there and start creating rp they will come.

[docmartinst]

I've been trying to drum up interest in Har'Akir, mostly by bringing mid levels there to show them how awesome the domain is. Who knows, things might get more interesting there soon! 

[airengale]

However, from what I've noticed the majority of players either go to the drain in the end, or the outskirts. How many people go to Hazlan and just stay there waiting for someone to wander in to rp?

You are correct with saying that the Outskirts and Drain are usually the most populated areas of the server. I typically see around 18 people in Vallaki and from 5-10 people in the sewers at most hours when I play. However, with regards to your doubt of "How many people actually go to [Insert location.]" I typically see 3 people in Dementlieu, Groups of 3 in Har'akir (Sometimes multiple groups.), and at least 1 person always in the Mist camp. Using the @location I can see where people are, and it's typically like the above.

It's probably disheartening not to be able to be in the outskirts where most people are to role play, but don't make the assumption that people aren't waiting for you to RP with them in those other locations, and don't doubt that the RP is any less either. All of my characters will usually avoid the outskirts, even if I'm in Barovia and in Vallaki. As I said before, know the layout of the land and you'll be able to bump into people to role play, and those moments can be the most rewarding.

I know rp can be facilitated by being an outlaw, I -know- that I am actually excited for that. The only thing I'm -not- excited for is having my characters skull caved in by someone he can't even respond to. That is not roleplay that is just death.

It's nice to know that some change is in effect from your post. Hopefully Radu will only subdue people, instead of kill them outright. Barovia, and possibly Hazlan, are the most dangerous places to be different from the rest of the population. Anyways, point is, don't be afraid to spread out, you'll be pleasantly surprised with what and who you find.

[RedwizardD]

Visit cultured and sophisticated Dementlieu!
We have some of the most progressive and open minded individuals in core!
Outcasts welcome!
So long as you are not filthy evil necromancers.
Experience high society!
Fight bandits in our spacious top of the line sewer, which features a black market!
Free cookies for the little ones for a limited time only!

This message brought to you by the Port-a-Lucine tourism board[1]

1.	The Port-a-Lucine Tourism Board may infact be a fictional entity and a ploy to get you to leave the outskirts

[herkles]

Visit cultured and sophisticated Dementlieu!
We have some of the most progressive and open minded individuals in core!
Outcasts welcome!
So long as you are not filthy evil necromancers.
Experience high society!
Fight bandits in our spacious top of the line sewer, which features a black market!
Free cookies for the little ones for a limited time only!

This message brought to you by the Port-a-Lucine tourism board[/size][1]

1.	The Port-a-Lucine Tourism Board may infact be a fictional entity and a ploy to get you to leave the outskirts

Dementlieu has guns, intrigue and the univeristy so come to do. Alternative here is a notice from the hazlani tourism board.

Come to Hazlan
We have the coolest church ever, the Lawgivers
we have theatere, shisha, opium and slaves!
We have resources a plenty
Magic is accepted
it is not a freezing winter land or a burning desert.

Note: being a non-human may result in your enslavement. denouncing the lawgiver church and their practices can result in torture, death, enslavement, torture, death. The hazlani Tourist devision is not responsible for what happens!

[Zhernebog]

Basically get the hell out of the outskirts and expand your worldview! ITS WAY BETTER EVERYWHERE ELSE. ONLY BORING PEOPLE STAY IN THE OUTSKIRTS.

[Soldier0fortunE]

Answer seems simple enough to me.

Recode it so that Radu stays inside the Inn.

That way people can roleplay in the central area where most players are as long as they dont get too close to the city and the Garda, and the only thing they would have to be worried about is PC garda coming out and doing checks on people, which would be better in my opinion, more immersive than having an npc suddenly come charging up out of the blue at dawn swinging his hammer at your head.

Radu staying inside the inn and attacking in there can be rp explained by pretending he checks everyone that comes in.

Like i said, seems simple enough to me, everyones happy.

Maybe even code it so occasionally npc guards come patrolling out down the road.

That would keep people far more on their toes i reckon, if thats the point, then just having people stand outside Radu's mechanical range and pretending he doesnt exist.

[Feronius]

I haven't read the entire topic, but I do have a question regarding this very subject that I don't think has been answered yet.

How much influence would you effectively need to fool guards and citizens in an (almost) failproof manner..?
I've had an outcast with a bit of influence, quite low in level though, but from what I've seen those checks happen so often it's bound to end up disastrously at random during RP when you fail a roll once unexpectedly.



Also regarding the original poster, it might indeed actually grant a lot more potential for intrigueing RP if vampires aren't hindered by OCR (at least not until they've build it up themselves through events and reputation.)
It used to be Vampire Spawns in the template, almost feral vampires, although since it isn't anymore (as nobody actually RPed them in that manner, besides maybe Scurvy?) ...could you actually recognise most vampires on sight?
Or is this still a remnant from an old system. (Trust me when I say I'm trying to rationalise this from an IC point of view, OoCly vampires have plenty of helpful mechanics at their disposal. This might however still benefit the quality of RP though.)