Author Topic: Dungeons  (Read 17436 times)

HellsPanda

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2012, 03:13:43 PM »
What works for single player and campaigns does not always work for a Persistant world.

And I have never understood why a char who is mechanically strong, is a terrible RP build?

Feronius

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2012, 03:46:16 PM »
And I have never understood why a char who is mechanically strong, is a terrible RP build?

It's not, not neccesarily at least. But this might be a question for a different thread?
Let's just say that it's highly unlikely that every fighter out there has the same intelligence. Or that it's crude to RP a noble, but not spend points in influence because it's more or less a useless stat. Same for intimidating figures that can't be bothered to invest any points in antagonize, yet according to their emotes and description make babies weep with a glance. But they needed the points for a higher spot check instead, even though the character wears an eyepatch.
(I think you get the general idea and why people complain about it, yes?)

I can't entirely blame them though, the difficulty of the server more or less expects you to build combat-efficiently to some degree if you want to beat dungeons with worthwhile xp / rewards for your level range.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 03:48:35 PM by Feronius »

Honoun

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2012, 07:14:08 PM »
Wow... Did I cause something untoward? I'm truly sorry but I was pretty tired and maybe a little upset when I made my last post in this thread. Should always rethink before making a post when I'm that sleepy. Well anyway, I just wanted to say that the technical stuff I posted was partly because I sometimes get the feeling that some of you maybe think I'm just making stuff up when I present some of my ideas. That I don't really know what I'm talking about or that I haven't any understanding of the game engine. And though my knowledge is rather limited its not from lack of trying the toolset out. I do actually have some idea so the technical stuff kinda was a,"Hey look here, I do know what I'm talking about and now you can test it for yourself." Kind of thing. Which is why I got a little upset about the, "Don't Post about it here apply for a DEV position". Thing I guess. Well if I have caused any strife with my reply to that post then I'm truly sorry and if the post was crossing a line that I shouldn't have I would ask a moderator to remove it pretty please.

If of course I'm imagining all of this...? Well forget I said anything at all here  :oops:

Anyway just wanted to add that it is possible to RP in a dungeon, done it myself plenty of times so yeah. That said at lower levels there is this feeling of "Why are we waisting time RP my buffs won't last forever you know. I used to think that a lot I have to admit but now that Asta is pretty much a high level char I don't think that as much anymore cause her buffs last a long time now by comparison. Long enough anyway that I can get that RP in for her and she still has enough time to whack stuff with her Hammer before they wink out  :mrgreen:

That said I've been fortunate that most of the players I seem to hook up with know how this server works and so lots of RP would be done in a dungeon before the buffing process started. Once buffing was finished though we would go right in and kick meanie buts cause we already had figured out our strategy by then anyway. When the battle was over and assuming we won which we did often enough, (had some close calls though ;) ) we would start RP again.

I would still like more puzzle dungeons though  :P

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #103 on: December 04, 2012, 04:43:07 AM »
Okay, Crimson Shuriken, just so I am sure of what you're saying here, at least: Is a well-balanced party basically a stat-built fighter, a stat-built mage, a stat-built cleric, and so on? In other words characters that are built to act as nothing more than the most powerful versions of their class and nothing else, right?
I realize you can not respond at the moment but I will attempt to clarify a bit.  Stat-built sounds a bit generic in your terminology but all I consider a stat built class is that their primary ability score is their highest. As in, a cleric will have wisdom as their highest, and a wizard intelligence and a fighter will have strength (or dex if finessing).  So that leaves a whole lot of leeway with all the rest. You hardly have to power build to go dungeoning. In fact, I believe you can take any class combination anywhere on this server. You just have to compensate for areas of the party based ruleset your characters may lack. The most obvious one is bringing healing with you if you have no cleric or druid. If you purposefully make wizards with all charisma or druids with all intelligence you will not be able to dungeon very well, its because what those builds in-character and mechanically are is people who probably got into the wrong profession and will never be as good as their peers as a result. They are interesting concepts for what they but will fall short if you seek power and combat prowess. They can be mean negotiators and social machination kings though. Its all how you want to build and what you want your character to do.  I build for concept. If I envision a small and lithe Rokuma youth who aspires to be a ninja then they are dex based, I choose a class with stealth class skills and take the feats for it and they end up materializing my vision. If I think a Sherlock Holmes type I give good and great wisdom and intelligence and take rogue because all those skill points will make them good at a ton of skills and eventually they detect and disable and talk to NPCs better than just about anyone. If I have a evil cleric of Lolth I think on what PVP scenarios they might encounter and what their go to spells or feats will be to kill people and how manipulative and politician like I want to be so I build accordingly. I even build for PotMs crafts sometimes, I might add to intelligence where otherwise it does not make sense just to be a better alchemist etc. There is only really one time I ever considered power when making one of my characters, and it was because I was trying to portray a divine champion of a deity and I sort of consider those rare and powerful endorsements of their dogma so I wanted them to be a virtuosity of martial prowess. All of them are right, there is no such thing as a wrong build if you are making your vision for them.                    
But, at the same time, not ALL are capable of EVERYTHING. Others will always be able to up your bar of what you can achieve by complementing you.

I do alright and I tend to have a charisma between 14-16 on all my characters, I even had a fighter that way once. Sure he was not as good as the best fighters, but if he had support he owns the monsters.You can strike a good balance between the two as long as you're true to your classes needs. If you spend ALL your skill points, feats, and ability increases in social skills then the combat ability suffers. That seems only fair, no character can be uber at everything all the time, most people are specialized, having one or two extremely strong abilities that others don't and that they can provide parties.

But in the end there has to be someone who can take a beating and not die immediately, so if you do end up wanting to try, for example,  a total mage party you can but one of them needs to not be a squishy mage. more hitpoints, more discipline, more fortitude, and more armor class and some damage reduction can make a mage into a surrogate tank. They won't hit anything but they can occupy enemies long enough to let others kill them. You are still better off finding yourself a grunt to hire as a minion to your superior intellect and using them as your occupier or fodder depending on your alignment.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 04:46:33 AM by Crimson Shuriken »


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tzaeru

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #104 on: December 04, 2012, 06:01:25 AM »
I can't entirely blame them though, the difficulty of the server more or less expects you to build combat-efficiently to some degree if you want to beat dungeons with worthwhile xp / rewards for your level range.

With all the current dungeons (and to be honest, I'd imagine with all possible dungeons with NWN) the player skill in managing a dungeon mechanics-wise is a lot more important than character build.

I really don't mean to brag, but I've done dungeons with a randomly (a bit of a joke build really) built cha 14 fighter/barbarian at level 9 with a Evocationist wizard (no Mage Armor, no summons) at level 10 that I've seen to become the bane of higher level groups of more mixed classes.

As skill levels with mechanics vary so considerably that a dungeon challenging to level 14 cleric, 14 fighter and 14 wizard might be fully doable to level 10 fighter and 10 wizard, it's always a hard task to balance dungeons so that they feel interesting and rewarding to more 'hardcore' players whilst still being doable to less 'hardcore' players.

Also, note that having 17 strength instead of 16 at start means you spend 3 full ability points more for a single point of strength than someone else might had. My current main is a meleer who started with 15 strength, 12 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 12 charisma, and he hasn't had any issues and will not really have in the future either. You can easily adjust any ability up or down by 2 to 4 points (depending on the ability) without significantly reducing the character's chances at survival and potentially strongly altering the character's skillset and personality.

Thing is, if he had had 17 strength instead of 15, he'd had to, for example, drop charisma to 8, wisdom to 8 and intelligence to 13 and for what? +1 AB and +1 damage? In the end, that is very small difference compared to the impact that good clicking has.

Though what I totally want to still see is more dungeons with ranged enemies, traps and certain spells! Preferably proper dungeons, think levels 6 to 9 and 16 to 19 would really need such. Currently hardest dungeon with satisfying rewards that is worth doing, I feel, is Swamps at max spawn. Then there are some which just are so absurdly hard for the levels that would get something out of them, that using the resources to do them is not really feasible with limited time.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:08:51 AM by tzaeru »

Mayvind

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #105 on: December 04, 2012, 06:27:53 AM »
I forgot what this thread all about but seem like christmas is here soon so i join in, I want Dungeon specially tailored for me ! Solo able, but challenging enough that will be only me that do it or better yet my name on the special locked door with I only have access key to it. Zillion XP critters, and Uber epic loots for me to farm.

Can any developer please build that dungeon for me please ?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 11:57:08 AM by Iconoclast »

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #106 on: December 04, 2012, 07:06:42 AM »
I forgot what this thread all about but seem like christmas is here soon so i join in, I want Dungeon specially tailored for me ! Solo able, but challenging enough that will be only me that do it or better yet my name on the special locked door with I only have access key to it. Zillion XP critters, and Uber epic loots for me to farm.

Can any developer please build that dungeon for me please ? Iam natural blond and 19 years gal so i have no knowledge how to build the dungeon myself.

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #107 on: December 04, 2012, 11:37:22 AM »
Personally I've never really been fond of huge groups since the pace tends to be so quick you have little time to reflect on the events of the moment or to absorb any character growth that dungeons (the less frequented ones) provide. Five or six seems to be the max preferred number to work with among many players before it gets a little too unmanageable and many dungeons can be done by a smartly played duo/trio.

As far as success went, it never seemed to depend on how well built the characters were because I've seen some very powerful ones mechanics and level-wise run around like headless chickens, cast the wrong spells on the wrong people and so on. Skill at dungeons is really dependent on the player in the end regardless of the challenge they provide and communication between characters key to achieving that, tackled much higher challenge dungeons on much lower level characters that way.

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« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 11:41:16 AM by SwanSong »

Elfric

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #108 on: December 04, 2012, 11:48:16 AM »
I forgot what this thread all about but seem like christmas is here soon so i join in, I want Dungeon specially tailored for me ! Solo able, but challenging enough that will be only me that do it or better yet my name on the special locked door with I only have access key to it. Zillion XP critters, and Uber epic loots for me to farm.

Can any developer please build that dungeon for me please ? Iam natural blond and 19 years gal so i have no knowledge how to build the dungeon myself.

I'll take a dungeon that requires you to haggle your way through! Soooo many people would fail and die a horrible death.

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Feronius

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #109 on: December 04, 2012, 12:12:22 PM »
Yes. Give a dungeon that requires the influence, appraise and antagonize skills. That could be brilliant.

APorg

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2012, 12:24:25 PM »
Yes. Give a dungeon that requires the influence, appraise and antagonize skills. That could be brilliant.

(Pssst. Best way to see that achieved is to become a developer yourself. :) )
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Feronius

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #111 on: December 04, 2012, 12:29:58 PM »
(I likely don't have the time or will to become a permanent member of the development staff. Although I was already informing myself on that part and looking into it, mhm.)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 02:04:59 PM by Feronius »

SwanSong

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #112 on: December 04, 2012, 01:33:48 PM »
We don't have any actual scripted quests (though I suppose the deliveries count as those) where you talk to an NPC in order to take a task from them to carry out as is the norm on most other roleplay servers, the dungeons follow the Ravenloft format of foreboding lairs and abandoned places only the brave or foolish enter. The only dungeon I can think of where someone pleads with you to intervene is the ant cave with the besieged halflings in their hobbit-hole.

The social skills did make a difference in certain instances of dialogue that would open up when either threatening or charming someone to perhaps pay a little more above the standard reward, lie about a task being done, convince an NPC about another course of action other than the one they put forward, get a boss-like NPC at the end of certain dungeons to surrender through persuasion or intimidate into submission and so on. The issue would be in balancing due to the level range and influence/antagonize boosting gear available on this server. Can't really see how you could implement those skills in any current dungeon considering most are populated by evil beasties who aren't entirely sociable when it comes to warm, living things to eat.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 01:35:36 PM by SwanSong »

Misted_Horror

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2013, 02:26:02 PM »
I'd just like to mention things like this also exist in PoTM. There is a level 20 cleric NPC in the werewolf caves. You have the option to use a skill, or two on her if I am not mistaken.

monsinyana

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #114 on: April 09, 2013, 10:36:27 AM »
We don't have any actual scripted quests (though I suppose the deliveries count as those) where you talk to an NPC in order to take a task from them to carry out as is the norm on most other roleplay servers, the dungeons follow the Ravenloft format of foreboding lairs and abandoned places only the brave or foolish enter. The only dungeon I can think of where someone pleads with you to intervene is the ant cave with the besieged halflings in their hobbit-hole.

speaking of which it would be nice to have a follow up conversation of some kind with them when you finish this.

maybe an offer of small reward or you can decline out of the goodness of your heart?
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monsinyana

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Re: Dungeons - General
« Reply #115 on: April 09, 2013, 10:44:20 AM »
some general ideas:


is anyone on the dev team interested in working on an idea for a 'random' place/ some random places?

im thinking of something where you cant just run through... where the waypoints are randomized?

ive seen this used to good effect on other servers


from woods that were difficult to navigate to dungeons and sewers

ive also seen some places that have the ability to turn off maps (or have them appear as black) so its really hard to get through a place.

i dont know if thats possible here though since we are not in a party? is it possible to have a transfer point go to the same place for 'x' amount of time? say a couple of minutes so everyone in your group sticking close together will go through.. but wait too long and you 'become lost' ?


i could see such a place(s) being pretty terrifying.



also- in the cep there are a lot of traps. how come those arent used? for example there are a bunch of pit traps and when you trigger them, shows a 'hole' for instance.. or walls that crush you, etc.

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Re: Dungeons - General
« Reply #116 on: April 09, 2013, 02:53:12 PM »
some general ideas:


is anyone on the dev team interested in working on an idea for a 'random' place/ some random places?

im thinking of something where you cant just run through... where the waypoints are randomized?

ive seen this used to good effect on other servers


from woods that were difficult to navigate to dungeons and sewers

ive also seen some places that have the ability to turn off maps (or have them appear as black) so its really hard to get through a place.

i dont know if thats possible here though since we are not in a party? is it possible to have a transfer point go to the same place for 'x' amount of time? say a couple of minutes so everyone in your group sticking close together will go through.. but wait too long and you 'become lost' ?


i could see such a place(s) being pretty terrifying.



also- in the cep there are a lot of traps. how come those arent used? for example there are a bunch of pit traps and when you trigger them, shows a 'hole' for instance.. or walls that crush you, etc.



I have a vague memory of traps like that being in the old Barovia crypts ages ago, as i recall (if i'm right that is) when someone asked why they were removed the reply was they caused lag or something cause of how they worked

Feronius

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #117 on: April 09, 2013, 06:18:10 PM »
speaking of which it would be nice to have a follow up conversation of some kind with them when you finish this.

maybe an offer of small reward or you can decline out of the goodness of your heart?

Why would the unpaid devteam go through the trouble of adding monologue and scripting to NPCs just to give the player an option to decline the rewards, in other words, the exact same result as not bothering to talk to the NPC in the first place. That's like asking for the option to craft iron bars into actual weights with the exact same weight and value, a complete waste of time and effort. May just as well stick to either a reward or closing the conversation.

Unless the declining actually give some other form of rewards in turn, such as a reducing of your OCR or temporary access to an inn room to rest, etc.
But again, that kind of makes more sense as a quest reward than as a reward for declining the actual reward. And you can't make declining rewards too rewarding either.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 06:20:32 PM by Grimson »

Honoun

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #118 on: April 09, 2013, 08:34:12 PM »
Why would the unpaid dev team go through the trouble of adding monologue and scripting to NPCs just to give the player an option to decline the rewards?

Cause they love us  :mrgreen:

monsinyana

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Re: Dungeons
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2013, 12:47:48 PM »
Why would the unpaid dev team go through the trouble of adding monologue and scripting to NPCs just to give the player an option to decline the rewards?

Cause they love us  :mrgreen:

Because some people may want a reward? or even want the option to threaten them for a reward?

and some people may just like to help halflings?
or another possibility is it could open up a store with them or another quest. all manner of things.
there arent many places to interact with npcs on the server

i could see negative choices having a % chance of knocking you towards +1 evil alignment but doing a good deed should only be rewarded with positive alignment shifts by lurking DMs. otherwise players would spam the quest to get their alignment shifted towards good.  


or another possibility could be like the mage in the tower... bring evidence that the queen is dead and get an item you cant get otherwise.

its a low level script maybe something very useful to low levels like a nice heal potion or maybe something you cant get anywhere else like a bottle of honey mead?


« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 12:49:50 PM by monsinyana »
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