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Author Topic: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)  (Read 11936 times)

swbf2lord

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2013, 10:06:10 PM »
Why shouldn't casters have a say?  This is the Gameplay balance forum is it not?

However, it's not something that directly affects a caster, so the opinion might be different.
As a caster/melee class, I fully support and understand what Legion's saying.

RedwizardD

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2013, 10:41:52 PM »
Edit: Redundancy is Redundant.

Impact is an existing effect in pen and paper and would allow for bludgeoning weapons to be more viable for fighters and the like.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:44:12 PM by RedwizardD »

Tyras

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2013, 11:34:10 PM »
Why shouldn't casters have a say?  This is the Gameplay balance forum is it not?

However, it's not something that directly affects a caster, so the opinion might be different.
As a caster/melee class, I fully support and understand what Legion's saying.

I had no idea melee classes and casters played two seperate games.  When the question of balance is being discussed all classes have a say in the matter because the balance being discussed is struck between every class, not just melee on one hand and casters on another.

My only concern in this is from the aspect of PvP.  I really can't care less how powerful you are against monsters.  There are characters out there now that make a joke of anything currently available as a normal spawn.  But, being involved in faction play or DM events such as the possiblity of war can lead to PvP and there is where balance has to be accounted for.   Expanding a situation where people have such a large crit range and have such a massive damage output as a result of that combined with an abundance of feats so anybody who can swing a weapon is great cleaving or whirlwinding does not exactly seem wise.  Instead it seems to make for an arms race, and those don't tend to end well.

swbf2lord

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »
Why shouldn't casters have a say?  This is the Gameplay balance forum is it not?

However, it's not something that directly affects a caster, so the opinion might be different.
As a caster/melee class, I fully support and understand what Legion's saying.

I had no idea melee classes and casters played two seperate games.  When the question of balance is being discussed all classes have a say in the matter because the balance being discussed is struck between every class, not just melee on one hand and casters on another.

My only concern in this is from the aspect of PvP.  I really can't care less how powerful you are against monsters.  There are characters out there now that make a joke of anything currently available as a normal spawn.  But, being involved in faction play or DM events such as the possiblity of war can lead to PvP and there is where balance has to be accounted for.   Expanding a situation where people have such a large crit range and have such a massive damage output as a result of that combined with an abundance of feats so anybody who can swing a weapon is great cleaving or whirlwinding does not exactly seem wise.  Instead it seems to make for an arms race, and those don't tend to end well.

Scimitars and things already have a large crit range. This really just allows rapiers and other things
to be on the same level, and to move everyone away from always using slashing weapons. And,
it's been said numerous times that, if you, as a caster are in range of a melee PC, you're doing it
wrong in PvP. Though I suppose I'm flogging a dead horse at this point. And as I say again, no
need for the aggressive response, it's not that a caster or a melee class plays a different game, but
they play the same game very differently. It's not as if this damage doesn't already exist. This just
allows for other classes and types of fighters to become more viable, unless I've completely misunderstood
this entire discussion.

Cursed Ink

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2013, 01:07:16 AM »
Interesting read how basically so far it seems to be that people who play casters really want critical chances lowered, but anyway. I play both and I while criticals are the bane of my existance on both my fighter and my wizard I dont want them gone, it's supposed to be dangerous to get up close to a fighter, theyre carrying a big piece of weaponry designed to pummel someone apart. Just like save or die spells, or sneak attacks. Anyway +1 for Impact, do eeet.

Geiger

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2013, 03:53:23 AM »
While balance is an issue, I'd really like to remind you guys, I made this topic about the possible expansion of keen edge, to include blunt and piercing melee weapons.

Thats it. Nothing crazy. This isn't even unbalanced, actually, what is unbalanced is the fact only SLASHING weapons are affected by this spell.

Please stop talking about pvp and other such controversial topics that no one will ever agree about, and what has little to do with the spell.

Tyras

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2013, 10:44:14 AM »
Maybe the fact that only slashing weapons are affected is a purposeful limiting factor, akin to a paticular build for a character.  If one wishes to be a crit heavy character they're going to equip their character and specialize in the paticular slashing weapon of their choice.  Perhaps it is a purposeful point of balance that not every melee character is supposed to walk around with a crit range of 12-20.


BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2013, 10:45:43 AM »
The way things currently work people already can (and do) get arguably the most deadly weapons into the wide crit range. This hasn't been a problem as far as I've seen. I haven't witnessed any kukri/scimitar/scythe weapon masters stomping through the playerbase. Now, the biggest weapon I can think of benefiting from this change is the rapier. Let's have a look at it.

Aside from the damage type and the fact that it's finessable, it's essentially the same thing as a scimitar. Because it's finessable it's preferred by dex builds - which makes it weaker than a scimitar for crit builds. The str damage likely won't be as high. It's also an additional feat for anything that isn't a fighter - and rogues, etc have to focus on their dual-wielding feats before they can consider something like improved critical, so their range likely won't be as deadly as a fighter. And even if a rapier does end up being used by a str-based weapon master, it's still no different than a scimitar.

I don't see any reason not to allow this spell change.
: )




Geiger

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2013, 01:43:48 PM »
^--- What he is saying is essentially the point. Also, with this change, weapons that do not get the benefit of having imp crit or weapon focus, can get a LITTLE BIT of crit range play now, namely the unique/CEP weapons we've added.

Most people will probably keep using slashing weapons because they're accustomed to the power located within them and the versatility. This may encourage people to mess around, or use other things, and in general it'll make the field more balanced out.

ALSO, in base PnP, as I've stated, Keen Edge is also supposed to work on piercing weapons as well, with Weapon of Impact, being a spell for blunt weapons only, and I think that was added in 3.5.

For some reason in NWN they decided to just make keen edge work on slashing weapons. It also happens that slashing weapons can get 12-20 crit ranges, two of them, and the rapier can only achieve with this a weapon property of keen. No other weapon type we have on the server could get to this 'level'. High crit multiplier weapons can still be keened, greataxes, scythes, battle axes, dwarven war axes.

It is more than enough for it to be expanded to all weapon types.

Badelaire

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2013, 01:59:03 PM »
Next we'll be complaining about x3 and x4 crit multipliers :roll:. This proposed change itself changes nothing but the inclusion of a lot more weapons that keen can be applied on. You still have to find a mage, a scroll or an enchanted whetstone to benefit from it regardless. Chill Winstons. You're not gonna get stab happy crit monsters popping out of nowhere.

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2013, 02:59:29 PM »
Lock, Stock :P

Regarding the idea of a Weapons of Impact change, I am all for it, original topic is solid.
(Though I've understood the iritation from touching on related topics asif they were OFF topic)


I'm so casual, my shoes look like feet.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2013, 09:01:22 PM »

Geiger

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2013, 09:15:06 PM »
It won't keen ranged weapons will it?

Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2013, 09:17:07 PM »
It will, but the keen effect will only apply to the weapon, not the ammunition, so there's no way to limit how much you shoot out of it.  I don't see that as a problem though.

You can also keen a stack of throwing weapons or gloves.

Geiger

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2013, 09:19:45 PM »
The problem with that as I see it, is ranged weapons already have the advantage of being ranged. I guess its not as big an issue for 'throwing' weapons since no one really had an incentive to use those. Just feels gross that its more likely to do x3 ranged crits, or just near constant crits with crossbows.

I'll be sure to slam out some rounds down range though once in game, get some more critical feedback once its there.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2013, 09:24:16 PM »
The reason anyone uses ranged in a prolonged party (where they would be buffed by keen edge) is because they are either an Arcane Archer or a rogue.  If they are a rogue, a majority of their damage is coming from sneak attack, not critical hits or mighty bonuses.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2013, 09:27:28 PM »
: )