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Author Topic: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)  (Read 11938 times)

swbf2lord

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2013, 10:10:01 AM »
I would really love to see more people using hammers and throwing axes.
But...but... they're so heavy.

Like those 300 pound throwing axes that no one is going to use.

Edit: I want to say those are Abber Throwing Axes that weigh so much.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:12:51 AM by swbf2lord »

queenofspades

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2013, 10:11:43 AM »
I actually used to carry 2-3 throwing axes on some martial chars for flavor, and they were handy at times. Would be nice to see them pack more of a pucn for thier' weight though.
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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2013, 10:14:47 AM »
Throwing axes are awesome, and would be extra awesome if we could make the alchemical variety.  They'd still sadly be worse than longbows in every way, though.  Longbow does identical damage, has lighter ammo, and a better crit multiplier.  I guess you can't use a bow with a shield, but if you're using a ranged weapon at that distance, you have issues.

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2013, 10:17:34 AM »
back on topic, I'd like to see a DM or DEV weigh in and say if this is possible or not.
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swbf2lord

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2013, 10:18:48 AM »
back on topic, I'd like to see a DM or DEV weigh in and say if this is possible or not.

Bad_Bud is a dev, still, isn't he? Aren't you? *eyes Bad_Bud*

And yes, as a piercing weapon user, I've always wished that keen edge would function in NWN
that way.

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2013, 10:48:08 AM »
Keep in mind that Keen Edge isn't supposed to stack with Improved Critical in base DnD; but it does in NWN. If Keen Edge where reworked I think it would be better if this restriction were also added, imo.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2013, 10:51:25 AM »
Keep in mind that Keen Edge isn't supposed to stack with Improved Critical in base DnD; but it does in NWN. If Keen Edge where reworked I think it would be better if this restriction were also added, imo.

I don't think that restriction is possible to add.  Besides, the game is already indirectly balanced more or less with the expectation that these effects stack, just people always only used slashing weapons in the past to meet these damage demands.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:55:25 AM by Bad_Bud »

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2013, 11:45:17 AM »
Dice adders are supposed to be multiplied by critical hits too. So varnish not being multiplied is lanother way that critical hits deviate.

In any case in NWN's setup not having Improved Critical feat and Keen Edge stack would render the feat useless with the proliferation of sources of keen edge relative to a typical table session.


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HellsPanda

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2013, 12:12:29 PM »
Actuallly when NWN came out I think it was still 3.0 where crit ranges stacked. It wasnt until 3.5 that crit range stacking would stop because people agreed it was crazy

queenofspades

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2013, 12:21:12 PM »
Even if it were made not to stack, that wouldn't really make the feat useless. Just like arcane archers are not useless with the changes to GMW.

At the end of the day, a PC with ImpCrit would not need to bother finding sources of keen provided they use thier favored weapon.

Things like that help increase the endurance of a PC. Just like an AA doesn't need to have GMW to have +5 ammunition. They also save on GMW castings if the party want to buff fully.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2013, 12:28:12 PM »
Even if it were made not to stack, that wouldn't really make the feat useless. Just like arcane archers are not useless with the changes to GMW.

At the end of the day, a PC with ImpCrit would not need to bother finding sources of keen provided they use thier favored weapon.

Things like that help increase the endurance of a PC. Just like an AA doesn't need to have GMW to have +5 ammunition. They also save on GMW castings if the party want to buff fully.

That's actually a really bad example, since GMW does stack with the Arcane Archer's Enchant Arrow.

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2013, 12:52:37 PM »
I did not say it would render the feat useless, but it would render taking the feat at all redundant.  Whenever the means to get maximum critical threat range is ubiquitous and available to everyone it takes the gloss off of a character who has spent a feat, since it didn't increase their maximum power level, it simply removed the need to have a spell. Some people value convenience and I agree its not without merit, but ultimately in comparison of effectiveness I generally only regard the top ceiling level rather than a higher floor.

Put in other words, it really is of the few things that is a genuine choice for the likes of a Bard or Cleric, removing the need to spend a feat is a no brainer because the feat would be better served elsewhere if using a spell when needed offered identical benefit. It would effectively mean ALL characters can reach maximum critical threat range and character design has no effect at all.

I am not saying I am for or against, I simply see it as a change with more than neglible impact. I personally would value the feat much less, and put it into the "convenience" bin that I never tap into because a spell or an item offers a free surrogate and costs no feat or skill point allocation.


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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2013, 12:56:24 PM »
Erm, rather I didn't INTEND to use the word useless, and I was being hyperbolic with using it in that case anyway


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APorg

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2013, 01:25:52 PM »
It's no less redundant in that case than in 3.5; and you have far less feats in 3.5 than you do here, where burning a feat to not have to cast a spell is not such a bad investment when that slot can hold another Haste, or GMW, or Magic Vestment, or whatever -- and one cast, one turn, can make a big difference in PVP, too.

11+ Crit ranges are absurd, and were removed for good reason. Arguing for them on the grounds of balance is turning the meaning of the word on its head. It's also rather negatively selective when many balance inspirations here are taken from 3.5, not 3.0.

Incidentally, there strikes me as being an easy way of doing this, assuming a script can identify a weapon's type (which, IIRC, is possible...). If the spell gave the weapon the Feat: Improved Critical in its own type, that would be effectively how it works in 3.5.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2013, 01:34:36 PM »
It's no less redundant in that case than in 3.5; and you have far less feats in 3.5 than you do here, where burning a feat to not have to cast a spell is not such a bad investment when that slot can hold another Haste, or GMW, or Magic Vestment, or whatever -- and one cast, one turn, can make a big difference in PVP, too.

11+ Crit ranges are absurd, and were removed for good reason. Arguing for them on the grounds of balance is turning the meaning of the word on its head. It's also rather negatively selective when many balance inspirations here are taken from 3.5, not 3.0.

Incidentally, there strikes me as being an easy way of doing this, assuming a script can identify a weapon's type (which, IIRC, is possible...). If the spell gave the weapon the Feat: Improved Critical in its own type, that would be effectively how it works in 3.5.

You're right, it would be possible if it were done that way.  But I think such a thing would require allowing everyone to relevel their characters.

I don't see this as negatively selective, though.  Maybe if we had devastating critical or something I'd see it.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 01:37:47 PM by Bad_Bud »

Geiger

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2013, 01:36:27 PM »
Yeah it's a pretty easy script wizarding to change this spell.

As to what Aprog is suggesting, that too is possible, to look for a feat, but I don't know how 'resource intensive' it is.

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2013, 03:41:59 PM »
In a vacuum, that is identical to 3.5 but in practice its different.
When you roll a charcter using the ruleset in tabletop, you build much more independantly of what items are available, not to mention most players of wizards prefer the glory route of summons or damage dealing spells so a keen edge spell won't be on every weapon in every dungeon, but here at Pottm it IS on every weapon. That's why it proves more redundant on our server.

In other words choosing Improved Critical feat in tabletop has guaranteed utility, whereas here it simply relieves a wizard of a team based spell memorization or makes enchanted whetstones or oil of sharpness vendor trash if you have the feat. It won't ever be needed to achieve the best crit range possible.

That's all I am saying. I actually prefer the FEAT choice becomes more important, so I would like the feat to double the range, but the spell only add 5% increase on the dice regardless of weapon type. I realize howecer we have limitations.


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APorg

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2013, 04:44:15 PM »
You're exaggerating your case. You can judge this because,  right now, the choice of taking Improved Critical is a no-brainer: any non-pure caster build will benefit from it, and the only circumstances it won't be useful is against things which are immune to crits. Common enough for monsters, granted, but converselyrarer in PVP.

Insofar as character builds are supposed to be interesting decisions and trade-offs, the decision of taking Improved Critical is easy: the answer is "Yes, unless you don't intend to hit or shoot things".

This decision is made even easier here, where everyone gets a bucket load of Feats. In 3.5, only Fighters ever really can afford to take it; here,  I know non-Fighters that take it not once but TWICE.

There would still be many good reasons to take Improved Critical even if it didn't stack: assassins who don't want to conspicuously buff up before striking; Fighters who prefer to be ever-ready; people who don't intend to rely on casters (e.g. natives); people who'd like to not spend another turn buffing to be ready; people who are low level enough that that those level 3 are better spent elsewise (and even at lvl19 my Wiz hates not havig a spare Haste or two because of casting Keen Edge). It's just that then it would require judgement and strategy to decide whether to take it or not, rather than being an automatic go-to on the road towards the Keen/Improved Crits combo.

So in my eyes, your concerns over Improved Critical are misplaced. It doesn't risk becoming unimportant if it didn't stack, it would just be a choice between proper pros and cons rather than being a checkbox to be ticked.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2013, 06:12:32 PM »
You're exaggerating your case. You can judge this because,  right now, the choice of taking Improved Critical is a no-brainer: any non-pure caster build will benefit from it, and the only circumstances it won't be useful is against things which are immune to crits. Common enough for monsters, granted, but converselyrarer in PVP.

Insofar as character builds are supposed to be interesting decisions and trade-offs, the decision of taking Improved Critical is easy: the answer is "Yes, unless you don't intend to hit or shoot things".

This decision is made even easier here, where everyone gets a bucket load of Feats. In 3.5, only Fighters ever really can afford to take it; here,  I know non-Fighters that take it not once but TWICE.

There would still be many good reasons to take Improved Critical even if it didn't stack: assassins who don't want to conspicuously buff up before striking; Fighters who prefer to be ever-ready; people who don't intend to rely on casters (e.g. natives); people who'd like to not spend another turn buffing to be ready; people who are low level enough that that those level 3 are better spent elsewise (and even at lvl19 my Wiz hates not havig a spare Haste or two because of casting Keen Edge). It's just that then it would require judgement and strategy to decide whether to take it or not, rather than being an automatic go-to on the road towards the Keen/Improved Crits combo.

So in my eyes, your concerns over Improved Critical are misplaced. It doesn't risk becoming unimportant if it didn't stack, it would just be a choice between proper pros and cons rather than being a checkbox to be ticked.

Every dexterity fighter takes parry and tumble.  Every mage takes metamagic.  Every high level mage memorizes timestop.  Every fighter takes discipline.  Every fighter takes Blind Fight.  Almost every character takes Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflex.  Protection from Evil is cast in every dungeon.  Improved invisibility is used at every single opportunity.  I don't see why it's a problem that the feat is effective and widely used.  I feel like you have a personal vendetta against keen weapon and improved critical stacking and I don't understand why.  I think it's great you can have a win/win with this feat; you can be more independent and you can still gain added benefits when you party with casters.  I would feel less needed on my bard if I was not the one casting keen edge on everything.

3.5 is a great place to start looking when a spell or ability feels like it's not working properly or is out of place, but I don't feel like this is even an issue to investigate.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 06:14:54 PM by Bad_Bud »

APorg

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2013, 06:36:38 PM »
Every dexterity fighter takes parry and tumble.  Every mage takes metamagic.  Every high level mage memorizes timestop.  Every fighter takes discipline.  Every fighter takes Blind Fight.  Almost every character takes Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflex.  Protection from Evil is cast in every dungeon.  Improved invisibility is used at every single opportunity.

I have a problem with almost everything you've mentioned, actually. :P I think both the Parry and Tumble systems are awkward; I think Discipline should be excised from NWN entirely; and frankly the reason every character takes the Save Feats is because everyone has so many Feats here, which in itself dilutes the value of Feats. I could go on but that would be straying from the subject.

Quote
I feel like you have a personal vendetta against keen weapon and improved critical stacking and I don't understand why.

Insomuch as I have a vendetta against anything, I dislike bad design and will be strongly critical of it, yes; I'm especially leery when I see people justifying bad design by comparing it to other badly designed things, because that's clearly a negative feedback loop. After all, the purpose here is to improve things, so why stop at half-measures if we can go all the way?

Quote
3.5 is a great place to start looking when a spell or ability feels like it's not working properly or is out of place, but I don't feel like this is even an issue to investigate.

I think you find it odd that I reject Keen and Improved Critical stacking so strongly because you accept it as the status quo; it's been the way NWN has worked for years, so what's the problem? Whereas to me, it's an old anachronism bygone, universally rejected in more enlightened systems.

Will be PotM be ruined forever if stacking is kept? No. Can I live with it? Yes. But you won't get me to like it, and I will take leave to criticize it when it comes up in game design discussions.
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Tyras

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2013, 07:34:56 PM »
When higher level melee characters have multiple attacks a round, and there are circumstances where certain builds can achive nearly 40% crit rates, and high strength/high crit multipliers/ high damage die weapons can make for a critical hit causing more damage than a full hit point pool of certain classes of similar level to the melee character, is it wise to push it even further?

I know PvP is pretty controlled with rules on this server, but having characters running around able to crit kill - great cleave - crit kill in PvP really escalates matters to where tactics that are normally avoided for their cheesiness are the only recourse left to any who would stand against such a blender.

swbf2lord

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2013, 07:39:36 PM »
You do have to consider though, that it's not an innate ability for those classes. They'd be dependent on either whetstones, or other consumables, often harder to come by except on higher level areas, or casters.

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2013, 08:49:03 PM »
I don't think I overstated my case at all to be honest., if such a change was made I predict a dramatic drop off of anyone taking the feat with your noted exceptions of natives such as Gundarakite Rebels or Fighters who eventually run out of things to use the feats for.. I am totally for the non-stackable change in standard rulesets but in a cast of hundreds I prefer there be more level of standard deviation and permutations that require fore-thought to achieve. Our main disagreement as I note, is that you believe currently it is a NO BRAINER that characters take the feat here. Whereas I see it as somewhat of a choice now at least if there are other feats you would like to have (I don't disagree its one of the few feats that benefits any character class or build, thats true), but if they did not stack would be a NO-BRAINER NOT TO waste a feat. I find it quite humorous the different insight, neither of which I believe is right or wrong. I simply can not see your view because its not how I play. Of the 10 characters I have played here that reached a level high enough to select the feat Improved Critical, I have two that did take the feat. I WANTED the feat on every single one of them, simply most did not have enough to have it AND the other things I wanted them to have and I had to make a choice. I would greatly welcome that being one less feat I would like to have because it solves a bit of the dilemma of choice, but I do wonder if that is a good thing.

For example my Drow Cleric hits like a truck with Divine Might, varnish, Divine Favor, base damage, strength damage all but varnish multiplying and she only has Keen Edge spell items or a Mage's help. She does not have the Improved Critical feat and I don't miss it other than the nagging feeling she could actually KILL THINGS FASTER if I did take the feat.
She is still on par with my equivalent level non-casters damage wise even with the cleric's insane advantage over larger sample sizes, simply because they attack more often and hit on criticals more often which closes the gap a bit on the 5-9 extra damage on every single hit, because they do have the feat which makes them critical hit as is possible in the rule set and shes does not.

In summary, removing the stacking nature would be tantamount to removing that extra obtainable level which is not a terrible idea per se, but simply has the non-disclosed and untidy side effect of making Paladins/Clerics hit the hardest in any sample size which is already likely true but at least only for the ones who have built like a fighter and taken improved critical. At least in that scenario they outpace a fighter but they had to give up a feat (which as I understand it you believe is not a sacrifice so fair play to you). I just see the current status quo as having the tidiest and fairest permutations and I prefer it over seeing anyone with whetstones reaching the highest range. I repeat I would be in favor of a weaker version of either/or, but I just think its best they DO stack so as to reward the feat by granting a unique extra obtainable level of sharpness over anyone without the feat, even if the advantage is as small as it gets (5%)

So my "case" is summarized thusly : "Yeah, thats a neat idea, but in the interest of balance here is some things that spring to mind since this is a thread in the Gameplay Balance section and I had some things occur to me regarding such a possible change" Its not an endorsement or denouncement, there is very little real impact on gameplay outside of competitive PVP of which I do love but rarely participate in so I don't have a dog in the fight.


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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2013, 09:29:25 PM »
   I don't understand why everyone is suddenly acting like wide crit ranges were just introduced yesterday.  Right now, any melee build can easily get 12-20/x2 crit range on a scimitar.  Has it been game breaking so far?  Are there tons of people being beaten by that nasty unfair scimitar weapon? Nope.  It just makes slashing weapons like Bastard Sword, Greatsword, and Scimitar VERY common.  This would just open it up more, allowing hammers, mauls, maces, rapiers and so on into the mix.  It would not make wide crit ranges more popular, because a lot of people already account for the slashing only aspect of keen into what weapon they choose.  All this would do is make a wider variety of weapons slightly more viable.  Maybe more people taking rapier or warhammer over scimitar, and so on.  Maybe you'd see some actual variety in melee characters instead of the same 4 or 5 weapon types all the time.


Spoiler: show
  And what's with the players of spellcasters showing concern over this?  If a melee character is in melee range of your silk-wearing mage, you've already made a fight-losing mistake unless he kills himself on your sheathe.  Use those sweet holds, slows, time stops, invis, darkness, and the host of other things designed to avoid being hit rather than surviving a hit.  Too many casters rely on DR spells/acid sheathe to win, when there is no need for them ever to get hit in the first place.  That's what half your spells are designed for. The biggest bonus that a spellcaster has over a melee (even one who loads up on consumables) is that they can ALWAYS be buffed (and usually are), while the melee has to use the consumables right before a fight, and they don't even last long.  Most have a caster level below 6 or so and can easlity have every buff stripped from a dispel magic.  Melee having stackable crit ranges is a laughable complaint considering spellcasters have this giant host of other things that are far more beneficial in PvP.  I have played both Wizards and consumable-heavy melee builds on this server.  I have engaged in pvp with non-casters and casters on BOTH of them.  I can easily say that in my experience, having a keenable weapon would not have made a massive impact in any way.
 PvP is, has, and always will be about who gets the drop on the other person.  Rarely are both parties just allowed to fully buff up, shake hands, and have a fair fight.  99% of the time, it's a hunt for the other person and unless the melee has bags and bags of consumables to use about every 3 or 4 real life minutes, they are going to need to hire a spellcaster of their own just to even be able to track you down, let alone fight you.


   But that's all beside the point, hence the spoiler tag. That discussion is for a different suggestion entirely.  I'm just saying there is really no reason to restrict keen to slashing weapons.  If someone is looking to powerbuild, they are just going to use a slashing weapon anyways and get the keen. All this does is put other weapon types on even footing.

Tyras

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Re: Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2013, 10:00:39 PM »
Why shouldn't casters have a say?  This is the Gameplay balance forum is it not?