Keen Edge (What I think needs to change!)

[Geiger]

Hello there all you cool cats.  

Something that has irked me since the dawn of NWN and the inclusion of this spell, keen edge, is that it is limited only to slashing weapons. I don't think it makes much sense that slashing weapons get all the advantages over other weapon types. That and in the SRD, the spell is also meant for piercing weapons. Along with this - there is a 'bludgeoning' counterpart that does the same thing. Here they are for exemplary sake:

Spoiler: show

Keen Edge
Transmutation
Level:   Sor/Wiz 3
Components:   V, S
Casting Time:   1 standard action
Range:   Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets:   One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting
Duration:   10 min./level
Saving Throw:   Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance:   Yes (harmless, object)
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)

Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Weapon of Impact

(Magic of Faerun)

Transmutation
Level: Bard 3, Cleric 3, Sorcerer 3, Wizard 3,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One weapon or fifty blunt projectiles, all of which must be in contact with one another at the time of casting
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

This spell makes a blunt weapon have greater impact, improving its ability to deal telling blows.
This transmutation doubles the threat range of the blunt weapon.
A normal threat range of 20 becomes 19-20.
A threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20.
The spell has no effect on piercing or slashing weapons, and it does not stack with itself.
If cast on sling bullets or other blunt projectiles, the weapon of impact effect on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target.

So essentially: Can this spell be opened up to the other weapon damage types? It makes it a bit more fair. (Though I would say I do not support it for being opened up to ranged weapons for two reasons - ranged weapons already have the advantage of being ranged, and two they mostly deal with dodge AC, so giving someone the advantage of ranged super crits is a bit silly. If you could get it to work like in the spell description, that would be cool though.)

[and if you feel like renaming the spell in the .tlk, I'd call it: "Dreadful Impact" or something awesome like that]

[Badelaire]

Considering keen as an item property gives the crit range bonus (Ba'al Verzi daggers for example) on non-slashing weapons compared to the spell I don't think a slight modification is unreasonable. Most of the bladed weapons bear the highest crit range possibilities over the blunts anyway.

[respawnaholic]

Considering keen as an item property gives the crit range bonus (Ba'al Verzi daggers for example) on non-slashing weapons compared to the spell I don't think a slight modification is unreasonable. Most of the bladed weapons bear the highest crit range possibilities over the blunts anyway.

Not a bad idea in general but I think some form of slashing immunity/ resistance in monsters is the most common also. If so they would not only need to implement a change to effect different weapon types crit range, but possibly revisit immunities to different creatures also.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Considering keen as an item property gives the crit range bonus (Ba'al Verzi daggers for example) on non-slashing weapons compared to the spell I don't think a slight modification is unreasonable. Most of the bladed weapons bear the highest crit range possibilities over the blunts anyway.

Not a bad idea in general but I think some form of slashing immunity/ resistance in monsters is the most common also. If so they would not only need to implement a change to effect different weapon types crit range, but possibly revisit immunities to different creatures also.

Monster immunities are not determined by the keen edge spell. There'd be no need to change the immunities monsters had if this change was made.

I'm not opposed to updating the spell to affect all damage types. I don't know if it's possible due to some aspects of weapons being hard-coded in the NWN engine, though.

[Bodhidharma]

Weapon of Impact

(Magic of Faerun)

Transmutation
Level: Bard 3, Cleric 3, Sorcerer 3, Wizard 3,

While we're touching the subject of making things fair, how do you intend to implement this spell for clerics?

[Geiger]

Clerics with certain domains get it.

Don't go crazy now. (we don't have those domains)

[Life404]

Clerics with certain domains get it.

Don't go crazy now. (we don't have those domains)

To state this is incorrect. Unless specified in any supplement handbook, if the text reads "Cleric X" then a Cleric capable of casting X spell level has access. Domain spells only come into play, as seen across all forms as documentation when specifically labelled as such.

To bring in some empirical examples:

Below is the 3.5e version of Mordenkainen's Disjunction (Mage's Disjunction).

Mage’s Disjunction
AbjurationLevel:   Magic 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components:   V
Casting Time:   1 standard action
Range:   Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area:   All magical effects and magic items within a 40-ft.-radius burst
Duration:   Instantaneous
Saving Throw:   Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:   No

It's available to Clerics with the Magic Domain. As clearly seen in the text, it explicitly states Magic 9, instead of Cleric 9. This in turn means it is a Domain Spell of 9th Level and only those with that Domain can access it. Moving on...

Blade Barrier
Evocation [Force]Level:   Clr 6, Good 6, War 6
Components:   V, S
Casting Time:   1 standard action
Range:   Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect:   Wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/ level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration:   1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw:   Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance:   Yes

Blade Barrier is accessible to both the Good and War domain lists, as well as Cleric as clearly shown in the text. It is a spell available to all clerics, however those with the Good and/or War domains, also have access to Blade Barrier as a Domain Spell slot.

With this in mind, Weapon of Impact is accessible to all clerics. By RAW and RAI. There is no other acceptable interpretation beyond that. To say otherwise is to deny what is blatantly before your own eyes.

[Edit] As for implementing Keen to affect all weapons, it can be done without haks or overrides. Simply modify a custom spell hook to apply the Keen 'property' (not the Keen Edge spell effect) to an item temporarily when 'Keen Edge' is cast.

You know, check for weapon in inventory (primary weapon slot): object oWeapon = GetItemInSlot(INVENTORY_SLOT_WEAPON, oPC);

Then apply ITEM_PROPERTY_KEEN with a DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, add in a Caster Level check for duration purposes and voila! It's definitely not the cleanest script (I'm no scripter, so my actual knowledge on how this works is limited), but with a bit of refinement, it'll work without much issue.

[Geiger]

I was suggesting the spell be condensed into one that "keens" all damage types. I also advocate that clerics simply do not need the spell, they're already supermen and can remain so for several ingame hours, significant enough that they more or less can have a passive AC and AB greater than that of a fighter - combined that with long raged, nasty magic... [shudder]. At least with the arcane focus, it comes from somewhere else.

If it came down to updating the .2da, I'd be fine enough if they just got weapon of impact.

also the sourcebooks are just guidelines, we don't have to bible it.

[DM Panic]

I support the decision to make hammers and rapiers keen.

Clerics would not need this spell, it would be a bit of extra work to add a new custom spell as opposed to tweaking an existing spell, and what would happen is that no cleric would actually prep it, and would instead use one of the very common Magic Whetstones we have laying about.

[Geiger]

I support the decision to make hammers and rapiers keen.

Clerics would not need this spell, it would be a bit of extra work to add a new custom spell as opposed to tweaking an existing spell, and what would happen is that no cleric would actually prep it, and would instead use one of the very common Magic Whetstones we have laying about.

this man speaks a truth

[Life404]

What would happen is that no cleric would actually prep it, and would instead use one of the very common Magic Whetstones we have laying about.

This would happen regardless on if they received access to Weapon of Impact or not, wouldn't it? Especially if you altered the spell Keen Edge to affect all weapons, as opposed to just slashing. We've got to remember, if a second custom spell was created (It's 5 minutes extra work in creating the HAK/TLK entries as opposed to simply modifying Keen Edge. The additional work is non-existent in the grand scheme of things), this 'Weapon of Impact' would affect the following weapon categories: club, flail, hammer, mace, dire mace, magic staff, morningstar, quarterstaff, maul, (potentially unarmed strike) and whatever other melee bludgeoning weapon I'm forgetting.

If it is a second custom spell created, then what detail is being overlooked by the fact Clerics have access to Weapon of Impact by RAW? Bards, Sorcerers and Wizards also have access.

the sourcebooks are just guidelines, we don't have to bible it

While I can understand your opinion, saying the sourcebooks (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Tome & Blood, Sword & Fist, Dungeon Master's Guide) which define and are, for most part, directly implemented into this game via the mechanics and rules on how the system works, are simply guidelines is akin to me stating the Dark Powers hold and control over Ravenloft are simply perceived guidelines to keep the timid in check and I don't have to follow their will if I don't want to. (There's another used in pure form: Ravenloft).

[Geiger]

The sourcebooks are set there to give us something to work with. We don't have to put it in word for word. The current system for NWN is based off 3.0 DnD, and it's just.. kinda broken in some ways.

Plus - it isn't PnP. Some things in PnP are balanced out because 1. pnp is less tangible and is more oriented between a gathering of your nerdy fellow companions (fun!) and less on mechanical advantage (though we've probably all had that one guy whos a bastard we know, haha) 2. scale of time, spell components, actual requirements to maintaining religion, the ability of there being a DM with you at all times to make sure you're abiding by stuff.

NWN in itself is a RPG oriented grind-fest, like all of these nifty bioware creations. The game is meant to be 'won' and because of this online adventure oriented thing, it's resulted in there more or less being "power classes". Not all the classes are created equally and we do not have access to all the feats that might be, um, leveling the field, we could say. Given that Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards do not normally succeed in the battlefield frontline. They are support characters first, and glass-cannons second. Bards can be off-dps dealers. But a cleric can literally be God in NWN. You can easily get a cleric to have near or at 40 AC and around 20 something AB at level 9 or so and this will last for quite some time. It's insane. (But again, if we went and redid all the spells, which would be quite an undertaking, who knows what'd go down?)

Also the Dark Powers are a plot device to be utilized by DMs and very little of the actual -core- limitations/disadvantages to being in the demi-plane of Dread are not on our server because they are specifically too macro to do. (Though granted, given time, we may get some of the nifty things.. like empowered necromantic spells and domains that give certain levels of failure to spells.)

We should also take this discussion elsewhere because we're derailing the thread, lol. PM me or something.

[Bodhidharma]

I'm starting to believe you simply don't know how to play a mage Geiger, considering the posts.

[BalorVale]

Love your posts Geiger, very constructive things to be said. But as a PvP Sorcerer on a different server I cannot help but laugh. MageTanks exist, and they generally beat their Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Cousins at it. Glass Cannons? Mages are insane in NwN, Ever seen two Twin Sorcerers level the Battlefield? I have.

I support the Keenage of all weapons.

My Brothers and Sisters I have a dream, that those with edges and those whom deal blunt force trauma can live in a world inwhich we shall yell; Keen at last, Keen at last! Thank God almighty we are Keen at last!

[Geiger]

I know how spellcasters work in NWN. But on Ravenloft you can't really do it except for the standard acid sheath + slaad shape. It just doesn't work out here. You're really limited to exploding magic on enemies or buffing them. A mage is very limited in what they can do on Ravenloft. But a cleric can do everything a mage can do (plus heal people and themselves) and then destroy the world with their melee abilities that are much more powerful than fighters.

Again - with how things are on Ravenloft you can't do what you do on 20+ servers or PvP gear oriented places.

[BalorVale]

Now we are discussing what clerics can do via Sorcerers? Yes. I do not like how overpowered clerics are, there is no way to sugar coat it. I do believe they have recieved some balancing with the divine favor nerf, but they can single handedly solo most dungeons, but they have a key weakness, Dispelling. A disjunction on them is a nightmare. Anything that strips them of the spells that make them overpowered makes even they run in fear.

[Legion XXI]

Hello there all you cool cats.  

Something that has irked me since the dawn of NWN and the inclusion of this spell, keen edge, is that it is limited only to slashing weapons. I don't think it makes much sense that slashing weapons get all the advantages over other weapon types. That and in the SRD, the spell is also meant for piercing weapons. Along with this - there is a 'bludgeoning' counterpart that does the same thing. Here they are for exemplary sake:

Spoiler: show

Keen Edge
Transmutation
Level:   Sor/Wiz 3
Components:   V, S
Casting Time:   1 standard action
Range:   Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets:   One weapon or fifty projectiles, all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting
Duration:   10 min./level
Saving Throw:   Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance:   Yes (harmless, object)
This spell makes a weapon magically keen, improving its ability to deal telling blows. This transmutation doubles the threat range of the weapon. A threat range of 20 becomes 19-20, a threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20, and a threat range of 18-20 becomes 15-20. The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. (Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell.)

Multiple effects that increase a weapon’s threat range (such as the keen edge spell and the Improved Critical feat) don’t stack. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as a claw.

Weapon of Impact

(Magic of Faerun)

Transmutation
Level: Bard 3, Cleric 3, Sorcerer 3, Wizard 3,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One weapon or fifty blunt projectiles, all of which must be in contact with one another at the time of casting
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

This spell makes a blunt weapon have greater impact, improving its ability to deal telling blows.
This transmutation doubles the threat range of the blunt weapon.
A normal threat range of 20 becomes 19-20.
A threat range of 19-20 becomes 17-20.
The spell has no effect on piercing or slashing weapons, and it does not stack with itself.
If cast on sling bullets or other blunt projectiles, the weapon of impact effect on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target.

So essentially: Can this spell be opened up to the other weapon damage types? It makes it a bit more fair. (Though I would say I do not support it for being opened up to ranged weapons for two reasons - ranged weapons already have the advantage of being ranged, and two they mostly deal with dodge AC, so giving someone the advantage of ranged super crits is a bit silly. If you could get it to work like in the spell description, that would be cool though.)

[and if you feel like renaming the spell in the .tlk, I'd call it: "Dreadful Impact" or something awesome like that]

  Sorry for the thread necro, but I'm kind of curious if it was ever found out if this can happen or not.  From the posts in this thread, everyone seems fine with the concept and reasoning and it appeared to be more a question of time/effort.  I know the team has a lot going on right now and this in no way urgent, I just figured I'd pitch it up again while it was on my mind since I actually ran into this issue recently.   If you'd like, I could ask a friend of mine who's real familiar with how to mod this stuff (without haks) to work as suggested, and he can write up a walkthrough that I can send to someone.

[Bad_Bud]

The only reason I never pursued this is because I didn't know there was such a thing as Weapon of Impact... nor that Keen Edge was supposed to affect piercing weapons as well.  I thought I'd looked this up in the past, but I suppose not.  Ultimately, this is how I had always secretly wished the spell would function.

[queenofspades]

I guess it all depends on how the spell is coded.

I'd guess it would be making the spell give a weapon the regular Keen item property for a temporary duration.

[Bad_Bud]

I guess it all depends on how the spell is coded.

I'd guess it would be making the spell give a weapon the regular Keen item property for a temporary duration.

That's already what the spell does.  This modification is super easy.

[jlove916]

I think it is overpowered. The slashing weapons are suppose to be better. Those stupid maces and rapiers are junk. All you clerics and rogues need to suffer with the lack of critical attacks. HA!...  Also, lets remember, keen is useless against undead, smelly slimes and a slue of other wonderful monsters. When the game makers thought about balance, the made sure the dagger and mace were excluded from awesome!! Lets all remember that..

Hope my rant helps keep the keen spell to just my swords and not all those other weak inferior weapons of the realm.

[Paragonville]

Keen edge for gloves please!  I have slashing gloves!

[Badelaire]

You could also cast the spell on arrows, bolts and thrown weapons that were slashing and piercing. The more you know.

[queenofspades]

arrows use the critical chance of the bow used, I think.

[Bad_Bud]

I would really love to see more people using hammers and throwing axes.