Parry AC experiemental change

[APorg]

Could this be explained in a bit more detail?

Is the Parry AC bonus now taking into account Dex bonus and penalties? What about Armour check penalties, etc. etc.?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

It takes into account the modifiers that would apply to a normal parry check. I don't think armour check penalties apply currently, but might add that if we make this permanent - it makes good sense and would be more balanced.

[herkles]

It takes into account the modifiers that would apply to a normal parry check. I don't think armour check penalties apply currently, but might add that if we make this permanent - it makes good sense and would be more balanced.

so it takes into account items with +parry now?

[APorg]

It takes into account the modifiers that would apply to a normal parry check. I don't think armour check penalties apply currently, but might add that if we make this permanent - it makes good sense and would be more balanced.

Armor check penalty applies to Parry, yes: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_check_penalty

There's basically two ways that Skill bonuses are done in the NWN engine:

* Base ranks are all that counts (see: Tumble)

* Modified check is what counts (see: Spellcraft)

[Telkar]

I'm pretty sure now the overall parry skill is used, not just the ranks. Tested it just now, removing and putting on armor. It went one down for me as I unequipped it as it should according to that, in my case.

[APorg]

I'm going to open a whole can of worms here and suggest this probably makes more sense for Tumble than it does for Parry -- after all I've always found it ridiculous that someone with 20 ranks in Tumble can get a +4 dodge bonus despite being in full plate and carrying a tower shield (-18 Armour check penalty).

Yes, I went there.

[Badelaire]

Meh, I lose out on ac with my main and gain ac with my alt. +1 one either way doesn't greatly affect the game much but it does make those systems that were in place to try and pad out melee class PC's survivability less so and make choosing those classes even less appealing in favour of mages, bards and clerics. A dex based, parry focused monk probably gains the most benefit from this change.

Also Prog, my main's armour is +2 banded Armour of Comfort that weighs 8lbs. That's lighter than a great deal of the light armour range but still applies the dex penalties....

[Geiger]

I will be the reactionary and say that the previous system was good enough. It kept it like tumble and made it nice and balanced.

[Badelaire]

As a melee class, you're pretty much dependent on every shred of AC you can muster in lieu of the powerful kick ass spells of the caster.

[APorg]

I will be the reactionary and say that the previous system was good enough. It kept it like tumble and made it nice and balanced.

I'm gonna agree with Geiger. I don't like the vistas this change opens up.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Unfortunately, even if we wanted, not that much we can do about the tumble AC bonus as it's hardcoded. But let's not derail the topic either.

[Telkar]

* Base ranks are all that counts (see: Tumble)

* Modified check is what counts (see: Spellcraft)

Are those the only two choices? (feasible to be implemented)

[APorg]

Soren:

Forgive me if I'm second-guessing you wrongly here, but would I be correct in parsing that your aim here is to have +Parry items contribute to Shield AC?

If so, I think a better solution to explore might be to have a script that converts any deflection bonus in equipped hand weapons (if no shield is equipped) be converted to a Shield AC bonus, in the same way that Parry rank shield AC is added to the Two Weapon Defense shield AC bonus.

So, if you have an off-hand dagger that provides +1 deflection bonus, the script would alter this to become +1 shield AC on top of your ranks of Parry and Two Weapon Defense.

This may be a more useful way of achieving your aims of +Shield AC items without opening the whole can of worms that is changing the Parry system.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Soren:

Forgive me if I'm second-guessing you wrongly here, but would I be correct in parsing that your aim here is to have +Parry items contribute to Shield AC?

If so, I think a better solution to explore might be to have a script that converts any deflection bonus in equipped hand weapons (if no shield is equipped) be converted to a Shield AC bonus, in the same way that Parry rank shield AC is added to the Two Weapon Defense shield AC bonus.

So, if you have an off-hand dagger that provides +1 deflection bonus, the script would alter this to become +1 shield AC on top of your ranks of Parry and Two Weapon Defense.

This may be a more useful way of achieving your aims of +Shield AC items without opening the whole can of worms that is changing the Parry system.

Not sure why changing the parry system is opening a can of worms, but I don't really follow what you mean about deflection bonus on off hand weapons either. You mean items that have deflection AC bonus as regular item properties? Do we even have such items?

Anyway, that isn't the purpose of the change, but simply that I found a fairly effective way of using the current score rather than base.

[Telkar]

Been pondering the implications of this change, thinking about the numbers. It doesn't seem to be anything to worry about. It's basically just a slight shift of AC in favor of being less armored. I'm just not sure about parry item combinations (don't remember all those items out there), but it can't be serious. Now all parry items will be seen as having fractional AC. +1 parry = 1/5 AC. Sort of...but you need to reach that multiple of 5 always.

Swashbucklers in Port-a-Lucine are going to be happy. :p

[APorg]

Note that it means that Dex will effectively count extra for Shield AC too; a +20% bonus.

[Telkar]

Yea. More in favor of dex too. It now adds to parry AC as well as reducing the need for armor. When you use less armor, the penalty of parry also lessens. Two sides to it.

This is an extra layer of complexity in calculating the best combination of armor and parry items. Fun times. 

[Gilad Abrams]

I'm fully in favor of the change. It makes items that grant a bonus to parry actually attractive to the user. Up to this point they were more or less worthless because the parry mode becomes less useful as your ac increases. By allowing the overall score to count to parry it helps those that don't or can't wear armor to be able to frontline. Not everyone wants to be a walking tin can and this change encourages that.
I'm thrilled 

[LackofCertainty]

I like the idea of the change.  Dex based characters seem to have short shrift at the moment, and tossing them a bone through more parry ac would probably help even things up a bit.  I feel like it both makes sense and fits from a design perspective.

I do agree, that I'd prefer tumble to also be tweaked to be better for light armor users, but if that's hardcoded then parry makes a good substitute.  Also, I want to see all the +parry items we have actually matter, and it would be neat for improved parry and skill focus parry to actually matter for a dual wielder instead of being basically being rp/dump feats.



This change doesn't really affect me much, since I'm mainly playing a cleric/rogue with a shield atm, but it might prompt me to try out a monk or maybe a dex based ranger.

[APorg]

My biggest concern is that this makes armoured fighters weaker -- they'd probably be better off using shields -- and makes monks even stronger. While I appreciate that lightly-armoured fighters could probably do with the boost, Monks really, really don't...

[Badelaire]

My biggest concern is that this makes armoured fighters weaker -- they'd probably be better off using shields -- and makes monks even stronger. While I appreciate that lightly-armoured fighters could probably do with the boost, Monks really, really don't...

Using his armour, a cats to get the extra dex bonus ac, shield spell, mage armour and a barkskin, Tredow only has +3 (+4 previously) more ac than my monk does fully unbuffed with no spells or potions in battle dress and the monk has imp evasion, spell resistance and all manner of immunities compared to a mundane melee type. Doing the math he would have 40 ac unbuffed at level 20 whereas your average +1 armed fighter-type's never going to get off the 26-32 mark without serious spell/loot aid.

If you were a one handed/two handed sword type fighter in plate, you'll lose effective AC due to the minus dexterity penality check and wind up having to use a shield regardless of concept. (We got disarm and KD for free in and extra feats way beyond normal in an effort to have players focus on moer rp-centric builds which very many did with taking parry and using a singular weapon or two hander in lieu of sword and shield.)

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

For the record, Armour Check Penality is not currently calculated in. It's an open question whether it should.

Badelaire, the numbers you give - are you trying to make an argument pro or con? Not really sure what you are saying there, please be a bit more explicit.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Also, about monks - I believe it would require that they use kamas, which entails considerable drawbacks here.

[Badelaire]

Armour check penalty does indeed affect the AC gained currently from total ranks of parry instead of the previous invested, tested that out in game. There's definitely huge pros in total ranks being the end applier a la spellcraft (especially for dex based characters investing in parry) but with the armour check, it makes melee types not using shields and relying on heavier armour far less appealing to pick when you have other more survivable options open.


Below is a snippet of 22 total ranks Tredow donning his armour then his regular clothing to show the armour check affects the total outcome (he has imp unarmed). So he goes to 15 ranks with penalty then back to 22 with clothing.

Monks also gain their full parry bonus due to having imp unarmed for free, there's no great change there and the higher dex you have and more parry invested the more benefit you'll gain.

[APorg]

Also, about monks - I believe it would require that they use kamas, which entails considerable drawbacks here.

If you take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you get your Parry bonus calculated into your Shield AC even when unarmed; an unarmed fighter's high Dex will therefore also increase the Shield AC bonus. I'm working with another player who plays a Druid unarmed fighter with that feat and that seems to be confirmed.

Note that any Druid/Wizard who takes the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat will also get the Dexterity bonus calculated into the Parry bonus when in Shapeshifted forms... so that's an extra +2 Shield AC on top of the Red Dragon form, for example.

This is kinda what I meant by the can of worms being opened... the implications of this change are profound and while they make some class/combinations much better (in my opinion, Monks and Shapechanging don't need improving, however), they also hurt others quite badly.