Small boost to Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus

[APorg]

I'd like to suggest a little tweak to the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus Feats. I'd like to suggest that these feats add a bonus to the caster's level for the purpose of determining the spell's duration for schools of their spell. Spell Focus would add +2 to your caster level for determining duration, while Greater Spell Focus would add +4 (non-cumulative).

Example: a level 3 caster has Invisibility and Spell Focus (Illusion); for Invisibility, the duration of the spell treats his level as caster level 5. For all non-Illusion spell, he is still caster level 3.

Rationale:

Some of the Spell Schools have very little use out of boosting the save DC of their spells -- Divination in particular has only the Feeblemind spell which, while useful against Wizards, is otherwise of very limited use; and Abjuration has only Dismissal and Banishment which, while useful, are also very situational and apparently suffer from harsh penalties here -- to the point that I know of some people who asked for re-levels so that they could drop these Feats.

It's clearly a problem if people aren't able to get much value out of these Feats. Through this small tweak, the value of these two feats is increased without making it a game-breaking change -- it's an useful little nudge that probably won't wreck PvP or PvE balance.

Some might object that this change makes Spell Focus deviate from the 3.5 srd, but I'd counter that by pointing out that our spell selection here is far more limited than the 3.5 srd's; we can't add spells to make Spell Focus more appealing so the only real choice is to make the Feat itself more appealing.

Thoughts?

[Dread]

In Arelith, there were quite a few changes to spell focii, some of which I think could be implemented here, or some variation could be at least:

With Abjuration, for example, your spell mantles could absorb more spells, Shield could absorb not only Magic Missile but also any of the Isaac's spells. It could also make each of the Breach spells strip away more buffs (one more buff with simple spell focus, and two with greater spell focus).

Of course, I think we should avoid including some of the features Arelith had. For example, there was a scry ability for those who got enough in the Divination Spell Focus which, while cool, opened up a veritable Pandora's box of possible metagaming, as anyone could claim that they saw a character scheming while their own character was scrying them and use that to basically screw villains who had been doing months and months worth of planning.

Personally, I'd be for keeping it limited to tangible benefits to present spells. It's pretty easy to do, I assume, given Arelith has done it without the need for .haks.

[DM Erebus]

Would this also have the effect of increasing undead summon duration (Focus Necro) and regular summons (Focus Conj)?

I think that'd be swell.

[Ophie Kitty]

Abjuration		26 Spells		2 Feat
Conjuration		28 Spells		7 Feat
Divination		12 Spells		1 Feat
Enchantment		16 Spells		13 Feat
Evocation		36 Spells		25 Feat
Illusion		15 Spells		4 Feat
Necromancy		20 Spells		15 Feat
Transmutation		27 Spells		3 Feat

Heres a list of all of the spell schools and the number of spells that are in each school (for wizard/sorcerers right now), as well as the number of spells in the school that receive benefits from the feats.

I really like the idea of the caster-level boost, Its simple and gives nearly every spell a small boost because of it. The only other options I could see doing is the same thing that other servers I've seen has done, they didn't add caster levels, but gave bonuses to certain spells in those schools that give you better reasons to want to take those feats, like SF/GSF: Abjuration allowing your spell breaches to move one additional spell, Divination granting additional spot/listen/search on detection spells and slightly increased durations.. Illusions were given increased durations, conjurations gave more summons (I don't suggest that here with our high levels), necromancy gave more undead (again, same), and transmutation altered how polymorph worked. (evocation, you have too many spells)

On par with the spell focus, Spell Defense feats are also hurting. Its a little glitchy, and right now the weak schools for this feat are as follows:

Abjuration: This school has no spells that work on players, thus, making the feat useless always. I'd suggest letting this feat raise your caster level by 2 for the purposes of being dispelled, and maybe reduce the number of spells removed from a spell breach  by one, if the spell focus counterpart is being considered.
Conjuration: Because of how the AoE spells of conjuration work, you actually don't get +saves vs spells against them, and this feat is included in that, making it worthless. I'm not really what could be done to bolster this feat.
Divination: Theres only one spell this feat protects from.. and because no one takes divination focus anyways, this feat is pretty worthless. Not sure what could be done with it.
Illusion: With the lack of DC based illusions, theres only 4 spells this feat actually defends against. Same situation as the other feats.
Transmutation: Three spells. (only one that actually does anything)

Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation should all be fine, plenty of reasons to want to take Arcane Defense vs those schools.

Edit: The only thing I really don't like about the caster level idea.. is that it really detours the meaning of Extend spell.

[Hatsune]

... What Rhymo said.  Was suggesting many of the same things ! Just got beat to it.

Abjuration is severely hindered (since one of its two spells is already DC nerfed), and Divination is almost completely worthless! Transmutation only has a few, but Flesh to Stone is already enough reason most people take it..

The caster level thing seems okay, but I'd be wary of adding 'more' to the other feats that already are potent, I'd rather see other perks given to bring these 'lesser feat's up to par with the more common ones.

Would be nice to have small perks to these 'lesser used' feats, instead of being a Drain on ones potential when taken for RP reasons.

[Ophie Kitty]

The caster level thing might be a bit overbearing too, unless you can script a sub-function you'll have to edit every spell individually.  I think the best bet would be to add specific flavors to spells of the underused schools. I'll write up a little suggestion table since I don't have anything better to do.. and I really like making tables.

[APorg]

Edit: The only thing I really don't like about the caster level idea.. is that it really detours the meaning of Extend spell.

Well, I don't think Extend isn't really undermined because Extend covers all applicable spells regardless of school, and Extend is also multiplicative. Certainly people may be swayed to take Spell Focuses earlier over Extend at lower levels -- but I don't think most people take Extend at low levels because rest periods are only be 2hr intervals, and the higher level you become, the more tempting Extend becomes.

[APorg]

Abjuration		26 Spells		2 Feat
Conjuration		28 Spells		7 Feat
Divination		12 Spells		1 Feat
Enchantment		16 Spells		13 Feat
Evocation		36 Spells		25 Feat
Illusion		15 Spells		4 Feat
Necromancy		20 Spells		15 Feat
Transmutation		27 Spells		3 Feat

Heres a list of all of the spell schools and the number of spells that are in each school (for wizard/sorcerers right now), as well as the number of spells in the school that receive benefits from the feats.

I really like the idea of the caster-level boost, Its simple and gives nearly every spell a small boost because of it. The only other options I could see doing is the same thing that other servers I've seen has done, they didn't add caster levels, but gave bonuses to certain spells in those schools that give you better reasons to want to take those feats, like SF/GSF: Abjuration allowing your spell breaches to move one additional spell, Divination granting additional spot/listen/search on detection spells and slightly increased durations.. Illusions were given increased durations, conjurations gave more summons (I don't suggest that here with our high levels), necromancy gave more undead (again, same), and transmutation altered how polymorph worked. (evocation, you have too many spells)

On par with the spell focus, Spell Defense feats are also hurting. Its a little glitchy, and right now the weak schools for this feat are as follows:

Abjuration: This school has no spells that work on players, thus, making the feat useless always. I'd suggest letting this feat raise your caster level by 2 for the purposes of being dispelled, and maybe reduce the number of spells removed from a spell breach  by one, if the spell focus counterpart is being considered.
Conjuration: Because of how the AoE spells of conjuration work, you actually don't get +saves vs spells against them, and this feat is included in that, making it worthless. I'm not really what could be done to bolster this feat.
Divination: Theres only one spell this feat protects from.. and because no one takes divination focus anyways, this feat is pretty worthless. Not sure what could be done with it.
Illusion: With the lack of DC based illusions, theres only 4 spells this feat actually defends against. Same situation as the other feats.
Transmutation: Three spells. (only one that actually does anything)

Necromancy, Enchantment, and Evocation should all be fine, plenty of reasons to want to take Arcane Defense vs those schools.

Edit: The only thing I really don't like about the caster level idea.. is that it really detours the meaning of Extend spell.

All great suggestions. 

[Aduial]

Spell focus is a good talent for raising the DC of some spells, and in a low magic setting turns to be an excpetional talent because you don t have much items that can raise your saving trows, so every +1 you gain it makes your spell more deadly, of course some schools may gain more and some others less but adding a new bonus to the talent will make some schools even more powerfull, however i guess the problem can be solved by creating a new group of talents for those less lucky schools perhaps?.

[dutchy]

NO   more nerfs   the class needs more nerfs instead 

[Ophie Kitty]

Spell School		Spell Focus Perks		Arcane Defense Perks
Abjuration		+1/+2 Dispel Checks, 1-2 Extra Removal (Breaches)		+1 CL vs Dispel, -1 Removed Spell (Breach)
Conjuration		Default		-
Divination		+10%/+25% Skills on Spells		-
Enchantment		Default		Default
Evocation		Default		Default
Illusion		-		-
Necromancy		Default		Default
Transmutation		-		-

Summary of the Changes/Ideas

Abjuration Boosts: More dispelling mechanics on: Lesser Dispel, Dispel, Greater Dispel, Mordekainnen's Disjunction, Lesser Spell Breach, Greater Spell Breach

Conjuration Boosts: Arcane Defense needs something.

Divination Boosts: +1/+3 Lore on Identify, +2-5 Lore on Legend Lore, +1/+3 Spot/Listen on Clairovoyance, +1-3/+2-5 Spot/Search on True Seeing; Unsure about Defense.

Illusion Boosts: Ideas: +2/+4 Duration (Caster Level), Defense: ?

Transmutation Boosts: Ideas: Profession "Enchanting" bonus? Slight bonuses on polymorph? 1d3+2 (instead of 1d4+1) on buffs?  Defense: ?

Enchantment Boosts: Default
Necromancy Boosts: Default
Evocation Boosts: Default

[Ellana Twiggy]

I kinda like the idea of a little boost due to spell focus's. My mage doesn't use meta magic feats, but does take any spell focus he can when the option appears. I figured it would come in handy later, since some things have some pretty good saves for monsters.  Ogres (12-15 fort) , nissian war hounds (9-11 will), so on and so forth. For things around my mages level, their saves are nearly impossible to get around. . .and he has spell focus in three or so different schools currently, boosting some of his dc's into the low, very low, 20's.  I thought it was pretty good till i tried using hold monster on a war hound, and learned that my dc was 21, and its will save was 11 +. Ran like hell I did. 

What I would kinda like to see is the summon spells lasting for as long as they are actually suppose to.

[LackofCertainty]

What I would kinda like to see is the summon spells lasting for as long as they are actually suppose to.

So you mean you want the summons to only last for 1 round per level, and lose the free turn they have tacked on? 

Okay, so that first line is trolling, but the "summons need longer durations!" argument comes up constantly, and I'm quite tired of people bringing it up.  As a person who played a conjurer wizard to level 13, I can assure you that the summon spells are quite useful even with their short durations.  As it is, if you are willing to devote a good portion of your spells to summons, you can function as a rather solid off-tank. (somtimes even main tank if you pair the right summon to the right dungeon)  If you switch the durations back to 24h, then a mage can easily start dropping loads of buffs onto their pet, and make it function easily as a main tank, while using very few spell slots to do so.

Generally, if you're casting the highest level summon spells you have access to, you will get a very solid meat shield for 1 fight, and higher level mages or the use of extend spell can increase that to two fights.  Heck, some of the summons are still downright overpowered on a low magic server. (I'm looking at you, Hound Archon)

[armybrat69]

I would say this thread is meant to give the dev team food for thought on what players may like to see regarding the title on spell focus feats. If people wish to lash out on ones comment and start a debate of the current changes to spells lets take it on another thread. Besides I like what has been suggested so far, we the players have the ability to suggest changes to what we would like to see implemented and I have seen many things posted  on these forums end up in the game. Kudos to all that have helped add to this server.

[Ercvadasz]

NO   more nerfs   the class needs more nerfs instead 

sadly he is right. Wizards do not need further boosts.

[APorg]

sadly he is right. Wizards do not need further boosts.

We can't afford to fix a few useless Feats because it might "boost" wizards? That's incredibly negative and ignores the actual discussion that's been had in the thread.

[tzaeru]

I like most of the suggestions, though I am not entirely sure if increasing dispels or making Shield give immunity to Isaac's is a good idea, since increased dispels is something everyone will take, and seek arcane defenses against of, and really are quite powerful spells as they are since they strip most scroll and item based buffs out of enemies too. And I kind of like Isaacs (though wouldn't oppose if it had slightly less damage. ) since it's only unsaveable offensive spell on a class that should be solid in offensive casting (but in truth, clerics might even beat wizards in it).

What I would wish though, is ways with which wizards could increase their DCs by just 1-2 points. At higher levels, even pure fighters/barbarians with low wisdom can potentially have insanely high will, so high, that Hold Monster of maxed out, empowered fox's cunning wizard, might have it's chance at success at around 35%..

[APorg]

What I would wish though, is ways with which wizards could increase their DCs by just 1-2 points. At higher levels, even pure fighters/barbarians with low wisdom can potentially have insanely high will, so high, that Hold Monster of maxed out, empowered fox's cunning wizard, might have it's chance at success at around 35%..

It's true. There's an incredible amount of +Increased Saves equipment out there but nothing that can boost a Wizard's save DCs. Even a Fighter can reach Paladin-like level saves with Feats an equipment.

[Ercvadasz]

Illusion Boosts: Ideas: +2/+4 Duration

Example of level 9 wizard, haveing the following metamagic feats, the two illusion spell foci+extend spell.

He has to take up the spell one level higher so a level 5 slot is taken.
duration of spell will be: (Caster level 9+ 4 from spell focuses)*2 from extend =26 turns.
Basicly it is allmost as if two extends were used on one spell.
You can do this with a level 5 mage for normal invisibility:
duration of spell will be: (5+4)*2=18 (like a level 9 casters normal extend.)

Switch this over to any other possible buff spell....

About dispells, well means all those consumable reliant guys can just go and hang themselves.<sarcasm>

[LackofCertainty]

I would say this thread is meant to give the dev team food for thought on what players may like to see regarding the title on spell focus feats. If people wish to lash out on ones comment and start a debate of the current changes to spells lets take it on another thread. Besides I like what has been suggested so far, we the players have the ability to suggest changes to what we would like to see implemented and I have seen many things posted  on these forums end up in the game. Kudos to all that have helped add to this server.

If this is directed at me, then I apologize.  I was not intending to lash out at anyone, I was just shooting down an idea that I've seen come up too often.  Summons do not need longer durations.  If you increase their durations they start becoming god-spells again, where every mage uses them constantly.  The devs nerfed their durations for a reason, and yet every few months someone will bring up that summons are useless for one reason or another.  I completely disagree with that sentiment, as every dedicated spellcaster I've ever made has used summons extensively.


If you want an alternative suggestion, make spell focus/greater spell focus conjuration give stat boosts to summons.  +2 con for focus and increase it to +4 con for greater focus maybe?  (and spell focus in necromancy could do the same for undead summons if you wanted)

P.S.
Or you could just ask the devs to add in the Augmented Summons Feat.  (requires spell focus in conjurations, and gives all summons +4 str and con)

[Ophie Kitty]

Illusion Boosts: Ideas: +2/+4 Duration

Example of level 9 wizard, haveing the following metamagic feats, the two illusion spell foci+extend spell.

He has to take up the spell one level higher so a level 5 slot is taken.
duration of spell will be: (Caster level 9+ 4 from spell focuses)*2 from extend =26 turns.
Basicly it is allmost as if two extends were used on one spell.
You can do this with a level 5 mage for normal invisibility:
duration of spell will be: (5+4)*2=18 (like a level 9 casters normal extend.)

Switch this over to any other possible buff spell....

About dispells, well means all those consumable reliant guys can just go and hang themselves.<sarcasm>

You would apply the spell focus bonus AFTER metamagic feats.


Conjuration doesn't really need to boost its spell focus. It has plenty of incentive already to take the feats. Arcane Defense However; Has no benefit.