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Author Topic: Again; Diffusion.  (Read 5312 times)

Garland Blackmore

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Again; Diffusion.
« on: August 12, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »

I feel like i'm beating a dead horse already, and i probably am.

I'd like everybody to discuss the possible pros and cons regarding the matter of low-level dungeons.
Currently the only ones we have is in Barovia. And becaue of this, the only domain we really have is Barovia. Yes, the other ones are still there. But almost all the time, they are empty. This is because the way the server is, we've been herded into Barovia.

All of our Factions are in Barovia, with the exception of the RVT in Port, but really that s just an expansion of the Barovian faction.All of our players hang out in Barovia, too. I mean, yes, we have our Mist camp crew but honestly? It's only about a hundredth of the size of the Barovian one and in my personal opinion the way things are laid out limits RP in very dramatic ways.

There are so many types of horror in Ravenloft. Unfortunately, the only one we really ever see is the Barovian flavour when it comes to MPC's.


It also limits the kinds of characters we have.  Yes, we can all have characters come from Dementliuese or Paridon or Ryokushima Taiyoo or wherever the hell we want our PCs to originate from but rarely do i find that these sorts of PCs even fit in with the setting of Barovia.

There's a huge out-of-character discouragement to even attempt to relocate, because we as humans still retain a herding mentality in many ways. Sure, we can claim that this should just become the responsibility of the player to go and do, but I feel that after seven or so years of the server being active and dozens of players who have tried to create a permanent player presence in other domains... well, i think it's reasonable to assume that the issue isn't just with the characters, but the current mindset of the development team and administration. This is not an attack in any way, perhaps it's simply an oversight. That being said, i will get royally annoyed if one of our conservative this-is-the-way-it's-always-been players choose to recycle that annoying server cliche about eating dinner at somebody else's house.

Personally, i would love to see MPCs in other places. I would love to be able to create a Port character and not have to start my PC journey in the same blasted place we all do. It's getting old, really.

What i'm getting at? I would venture there's a good portion of the playerbase who wouldn't mind actually utilizing all the hard work and depth the developers have built into these domains. I would like to see Port and Har'akir given an on-par, low level dungeon with Vallaki. And the possibility of choosing to begin there. We have so many settings to choose from, but really the only one that's even getting close to being fleshed out is Barovia. Everybody comes to Vallaki outskrits. Why? because that's where everybody else is loitering. That same dungeon is empty empty empty because it was made when the playerbase was much smaller and now that our playerbase has grown i would say it's about time we increase our spawns on-par to match our playerbase.

Give these other domains a chance to grow and develop a playerbase. I can honestly say that if Port or Har'akir was given a newbie dungeon i would never go back to Vallaki. I know of many players who feel the same.  It would be absolutely wonderful for the atmosphere of the server if there were simply less PCs all congealed in one area, and i'd love to be able to travel abroad ALONE and find companions along the way. Actually IN other Domains. Without having to shoot people a tell and go "Heyz, u wanna go Port it up?"

As though it's a vacation or something from Barovia. How about a permanent residency? Whenever it's NCW, there's a ton of players in other areas and it's absolutely awesome.

But this isn't going to happen unless a few things do first. And the first being, acknowledging that no single player is ever going to be able to influence an entire playerbase to relocate unless the Dms and devs give a helping hand.

So here is what i want,

I want everybody who just read through this to consider how much fun it might be to play a character who doesn't live in Vallaki. Consider the possiblities. Suggest the area you might want another low-level dungeon in. IF everybody does this, the Dev team will know which area is the most popular one.

Secondly, sometimes i worry that these posts are simply not taken seriously by the DMs and Devs sometimes. It's just so easy to ignore an idea, i don't realy blame anybody for it.

But what i really want to see? Is discussion here. Not just between the players, but the staff too. Please consider this subject.

I love it when you make me dinner, PotM. And it's always good.

But it's always Pancakes. Now i love pancakes, but let's have some waffles one of those times i come over.

Thanks, guys.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 03:29:59 PM »
I would like to go to port, but I haven't had a character strong enough to survive there for quite a while.  I -could- move a character there, never dungeon, and just rely on tavern rp, but I'm much more likely to get tavern rp in Vallaki instead.

I might be weird, though, because I rarely get a character past level 10.

APorg

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2012, 03:35:27 PM »
I'd love to play an Akiran desert ranger in Har'Akir without first levelling him up to double digit levels >.<
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Garland Blackmore

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2012, 03:36:56 PM »
And if there was a lowbie dungeon there? Do you think finding other players and RP there would be easier? Would it make you more likely to move?

APorg

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2012, 03:43:27 PM »
Yeah. Although the problem is not just dungeons, it's that the entire economy is more or less centralised around Barovia as well, and Vallaki to a large extent. Though there's now a fair chunk of herb nodes in the Port and some in Hazlan, Barovia is still the best pickings. There's some mining in the village, but the best is under Dvergeheim. The best dungeons for higher-end reagents are mostly around Vallaki.

I think the Devs and DMs have done a lot to bring other domains to life -- Dementlieu has grown leaps and bounds -- but it's going to be hard to overturn a fundamental design ethos that sees 95% of your low-level needs satisfied in the Vallaki region.
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herkles

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2012, 03:57:55 PM »
First, there is actually a number of people who live and work in dementlieu. Bernard du Bourg, the theatere group, House Montte all live and work in the port and rarely do most of us leave dementlieu I have found, could be wrong though.

For dementlieu, Personally I would have lower level thugs in the quartiuar ouriver and marchand. Let them exist but do not make them high level like they are now. Then have the outlaying areas on the road to Edrign include smuggler dens, bandit caves, forests with dangerous wolves for higher levels.

I also think there should be more crafting resources in dementlieu, Yes I am aware of canon they have little but still some more could be given to make it more interesting.

I personally would like to see a way to easier get to the different domains as a starting PC without a dm; dms can port you to the port at starting character btw. Perhaps have a seperate misty transition at new character screen that leads you to the port with a giant sign that says "WARNING!!!!!! THIS IS FOR EXPERINCED PLAYERS!"  a similar thing could exist in the reset area room.

Though aprogressivist is right, the main design philosphy is that everything around vallaki is low level and everything out of that bubble is higher level.


Elfric

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2012, 04:00:41 PM »
Yeah. Although the problem is not just dungeons, it's that the entire economy is more or less centralised around Barovia as well, and Vallaki to a large extent. Though there's now a fair chunk of herb nodes in the Port and some in Hazlan, Barovia is still the best pickings. There's some mining in the village, but the best is under Dvergeheim. The best dungeons for higher-end reagents are mostly around Vallaki.

I think the Devs and DMs have done a lot to bring other domains to life -- Dementlieu has grown leaps and bounds -- but it's going to be hard to overturn a fundamental design ethos that sees 95% of your low-level needs satisfied in the Vallaki region.

In the campaigns places like Port are rather low leveled, normally 1-7 so it would be nice for the characters to be allowed were they want to start. Thanks to having deer, and dire boars port can support low levels with a grind and roleplay now. The only issue standing is Port as all the crafts [minus gilding] but only one resource.

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Dusk

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2012, 04:01:21 PM »
Unfortunately, I can see it being difficult to start anywhere else with a PC intended for adventuring.

However, taking Port for example, it's a much more RP-driven environment, IMO, than adventuring one. I know a few characters who permanently reside there, and I have Inari there as much as possible (she 'lives' there after all, and works for the Theatre). The characters who do reside there are very story-driven and I think Port has benefited from that immensely. There has been discussion on the Theatre forums regarding how to merge some of the activity around a certain establishment in Vallaki with the Theatre, and there's often DM activity in Port, so, with all due respect, I disagree on the DM and Dev team not taking this seriously. Rather, I think they're on a different page than setting up environments as friendly as Vallaki in other domains. I do believe other domains could use some attention to draw mid- high-level PCs from Vallaki because it's immensely more convenient for crafters to base there, but I think the relatively exclusive friendly environment for low-level PCs is an OOC boon; it gives new characters a chance not only to develop in levels, but depth as well, with the relative density of players in Vallaki.

Players congregate; this is unavoidable, I think. The attention and work required to make other domains as friendly as Vallaki is to low-levels would not benefit the server overall, IMO-- the time that would be spent accomplishing this could be devoted to other things on what is undoubtedly a long to-do list already, for the Dev team.

It is a valid concern in my eyes on the plausibility of having new characters created with the intention of having them reside somewhere besides Vallaki. Is the difficulty of this too off-setting for players to even start characters with no intention of adventuring much? If so, a radical suggestion I would put forth is giving attention more to a new class of AMPCs than to the addition of multiple low-level dungeons in other domains. This new class would be more of an APC (Atmospheric Player-Character), with the only distinction from AMPCs being that these characters aren't necessarily antagonistic, but they are created with the intent of adding atmosphere to different particular domain, be it a desert ranger in Har'Akir, a smuggler or investigator in Port, etc..

In sum, I think other domains stands to benefit the most when players create a character with the mindset of adding atmosphere to a particular domain, rather than being able to level in a different domain. Perhaps this could be capitalized on better?

Sewerfish

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 04:11:13 PM »
adding a Low LVL dungeons would help keep low level players busy when no one else is around in these less popular domains. These dungeons could also serve as meeting places as that is where lonely low lvl PCs can go in these areas.. I dunno. I've play mostly in the drain.. I'd like to see a starter dungeon down there too :D 

Purist

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 04:14:45 PM »
I think this server born due to the interest and love in the setting of Barovia. The werewolves, the mists, the night, witchcraft, xenophobia, and of course the vampires. I often see the rest, outside this Barovia blob, as a bonus, something extra, thus, I don't tend to expect much effort there, even though there are many efforts to make those places happen.

I don't think those areas should be made more leveled so that we can spread the player base outward. I prefer to see crowds of players, not NPCs' around. Places like H'Arakir are to me to just sites for adventuring and expedition, not actual hubs. But that's my opinion. If we could throw 200 people here, simultaneously online, have hardware and bandwidth for that, then I'd love to see those areas as much as important as Barovia.

tzaeru

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 04:48:51 PM »
I think this server born due to the interest and love in the setting of Barovia. The werewolves, the mists, the night, witchcraft, xenophobia, and of course the vampires. I often see the rest, outside this Barovia blob, as a bonus, something extra, thus, I don't tend to expect much effort there, even though there are many efforts to make those places happen.

Yeah - I have to admit myself, that I really don't know a more archetypical and better domain to start in for new players than Barovia.

Also, if players were equally divided with Vallaki, village of Barovia, Dementlieu and Hazlan, there would really be problems in finding players outside USA prime times. In EU times the player count is down to between 10 and 25, often making it difficult to find people even in Outskirts.

As such, I rather prefer the importance of Vallaki areas but would certainly like if more high levels found reasons to stay in Mist Camp and the near by domains. I personally try to keep my higher levels in that vicinity majority of the time, but they are so empty and void of RP that it's really hard to without getting horribly bored.. But when it comes to high levels, I think it's more a problem of players than area design. While Dementlieu doesn't supply any craft sufficiently, Village of Barovia does for most crafts, and Har'Akir does have some herbs and alchemy ingredients while Hazlan is a haven of herbs.

BalorVale

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 05:17:55 PM »
Even all things considered, more viable dungeon area's for more people not only opens doors for lower levels, but MPC's and AMPC's. There are No AMPC's in any other area but Barovia. End of story. There are no exceptions. This needs to be changed. There is a more subtle horror to be had besides "Imma Werewolf Om nom nom" Giving us more room to work with is fantastic, I made my vampire with the plan of being different and raising the bar on MPC's. But I can now see why MPC's and AMPC's haunt the same four maps, It's the only one's populated. There is no "Low-Level Area" I can't haunt a few low levels to gather in a mob and come hunt me down, instead they grab their one level 20 paladin, to punch my face into the dirt. I am an encounter level, and It's not level 20.

People lack fear because there are too many high levels domineering low level area's due to plentiful resources, and the like. Giving more area's more resources gives us AMPC's and MPC's more of a chance to roleplay without Fearless Superhero in his Cape to come smashing our face because he know's he's level 20 and Your not. Anything to help diffussion does not need to be shot down, it needs to be encouraged. +1

herkles

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 05:44:41 PM »
I think this server born due to the interest and love in the setting of Barovia. The werewolves, the mists, the night, witchcraft, xenophobia, and of course the vampires. I often see the rest, outside this Barovia blob, as a bonus, something extra, thus, I don't tend to expect much effort there, even though there are many efforts to make those places happen.

Yeah - I have to admit myself, that I really don't know a more archetypical and better domain to start in for new players than Barovia.

Mordent! Mordent is awesome and really gothic horror. Ghosts, mists, the night, ghosts, xenophobia, hell even werewolves vampires and vampires  fit in Mordent. Mordent is one of the best domains IMO; I love that place. It is in the top domains for me. hehe

Unfortunately, I can see it being difficult to start anywhere else with a PC intended for adventuring.

However, taking Port for example, it's a much more RP-driven environment, IMO, than adventuring one. I know a few characters who permanently reside there, and I have Inari there as much as possible (she 'lives' there after all, and works for the Theatre). The characters who do reside there are very story-driven and I think Port has benefited from that immensely. There has been discussion on the Theatre forums regarding how to merge some of the activity around a certain establishment in Vallaki with the Theatre, and there's often DM activity in Port, so, with all due respect, I disagree on the DM and Dev team not taking this seriously.

 Rather, I think they're on a different page than setting up environments as friendly as Vallaki in other domains. I do believe other domains could use some attention to draw mid- high-level PCs from Vallaki because it's immensely more convenient for crafters to base there, but I think the relatively exclusive friendly environment for low-level PCs is an OOC boon; it gives new characters a chance not only to develop in levels, but depth as well, with the relative density of players in Vallaki.

This is something that should be kept in mind dementlieu is an intrigue heavy domain. That is the nature of the land and it makes for some neat rp; On its own it does not favor adventuring but what could be done easily and I am surprised it has yet to happen is for groups, say the univiersity to finiance adventures to distant lands. The port could easily be the startin point. the port of call for adventuring if you will.

Players congregate; this is unavoidable, I think. The attention and work required to make other domains as friendly as Vallaki is to low-levels would not benefit the server overall, IMO-- the time that would be spent accomplishing this could be devoted to other things on what is undoubtedly a long to-do list already, for the Dev team.


What dementlieu could use is some more dungeons but not for low levels IMO but for higher levels oddly enough. While I think the thugs could be made lower level; I also think and support there being more higher level dungeons in dementlieu.

It is a valid concern in my eyes on the plausibility of having new characters created with the intention of having them reside somewhere besides Vallaki. Is the difficulty of this too off-setting for players to even start characters with no intention of adventuring much? If so, a radical suggestion I would put forth is giving attention more to a new class of AMPCs than to the addition of multiple low-level dungeons in other domains. This new class would be more of an APC (Atmospheric Player-Character), with the only distinction from AMPCs being that these characters aren't necessarily antagonistic, but they are created with the intent of adding atmosphere to different particular domain, be it a desert ranger in Har'Akir, a smuggler or investigator in Port, etc..

In sum, I think other domains stands to benefit the most when players create a character with the mindset of adding atmosphere to a particular domain, rather than being able to level in a different domain. Perhaps this could be capitalized on better?

I love that idea. that idea is awesome! though the problem with aMPC is that they have a 30 day limit but a great idea.


Garland Blackmore

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 06:42:31 PM »
I've already said my piece, i don't have much else other than this:

Even if only one other domain was to recieve a low-level dungeon, some better crafting stations, and a few more resources, i can honestly say i think it would have a dramatic effect on the overall "horror" of the server.

I mean, all that crafting... who buys it?

It's the lowbies, really.

And having a whack of newbie characters starting up in port is going to dramatically encourage crafting trade there, to a point i believe can be on par with Vallaki. Sure, doing this will inevitably reduce crafting trade but... it's going to create at least two distinct modes of roleplay. My personal choice would be Port to be selected for this; It's wonderfully huge and has much more life to it than Barovia. We'll create a juxtaposition between the In-Your-Face-Fear-The-Night kind of horror, and then there's the demented-and-subtle brand of horror that Port is all about.

Hell, we don't even NEED another lowbie dungeon in Port; Just scale the levels down on the thugs at night.

And i KNOW there's roleplay to be had in Port. I'm aware that we do have some very good roleplayers there. But it's not a constant thing. You can't always go to port and find somebody to roleplay with, where in Vallaki you can. And THAT is what keeps everybody in Vallaki. Not the resources, not the mercantile-ness. It's the fact that we as players know the only place we can assuredly find roleplay in is Vallaki. The only place were going to find MPCs is Vallaki.

Honestly, i think the only way to bring that stuff to port is to make it newbie-friendly.

Besides, who really WANTS 30+ people standing around in the Vallaki Outskirts? It doesn't really do anything benficial and makes it feel like i'm playing Habbo Hotel. How much quality RP can be had when EVERYBODY wants to have their little moment outside the church?

Not only does it undermine the authority of the government/ Vallaki Garda, but it also undermines the ability MPCs have to actually make an impact. The Garda would feel a lot more threatening if there wasn't so many pro-choice, pro-caliban outlanders who are dying to show all the Barovians just how tolerate and decent they are to all of God's creatures. Hallelujah!

And the MPCs would feel a lot more threatening if they suddenly found themselves with 50% less opposition.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 06:51:17 PM by Garland Blackmore »

Ercvadasz

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 09:57:59 PM »


I mean, all that crafting... who buys it?

It's the lowbies, really.

if you even sell it.

Not the resources, not the mercantile-ness.

For me actually it is mostly the resources that bring me back to vallaki.
As a herbalist, it is actually the bleak cup, the crimson lichen and the violet mold, that brings me back. Those can hardly be found at or near the village of barovia.
(wererat caves, undead caves, and a random cave, maybe ants, end of story. Vallaki and around? In a lot of places...)
Same with troll moss, blackwort or grey puffballs. Venture to Dvergenheim and you can allready find more than near the village, not to mention the road to Kburg.
For herbalist western part of barovia is a heaven, while eastern (near village) is not so, beside the spring herb picking time.

And the MPCs would feel a lot more threatening if they suddenly found themselves with 50% less opposition.

With this i cannot agree more.
Is basicly a high level hug-fest these days.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 07:54:11 PM by Ercvadasz »
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Garland Blackmore

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 09:49:20 PM »
Can a DM or two share some of their insight?

Something that always seems to bug is how admins and DMs all too often leave these kinds of threads untouched.

dutchy

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 10:02:55 PM »
maybe go trough the last  topics about this  theres probably an awnser there.

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Amon-Si

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 10:14:33 PM »
maybe go trough the last  topics about this  theres probably an awnser there.

*is unshackled and doesnt have to pretend to be nice anymore right panda?*

Release the Troll!!!!

herkles

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 10:15:22 PM »
maybe go trough the last  topics about this  theres probably an awnser there.

*is unshackled and doesnt have to pretend to be nice anymore right panda?*

Release the Troll!!!!

actually the dms and devs still have to vote for their choice :P


dutchy

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 10:34:36 PM »
maybe there is a reason they didnt respond......maybe thats your awnser then.
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Dread

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2012, 03:21:07 AM »
What if I told you, Neo, that there are players who live in Dementlieu and there actually is a good part of the playerbase that spends most of their time there?

What if I also told you that there are a few people who spend time in the village of Barovia mostly? And that people regularly make endeavors to play in domains like Har'Akir and elsewhere?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 03:26:06 AM by DM Seraphim »

Ingwulf

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2012, 03:37:29 AM »
I think I saw this in a post elsewhere but how about making the Vallaki region not yeald XP for lvl 10 and anbove?

The reason for that people loiter in vallaki is the certainty of RP. This would nicely "force" players to head elsewhere and let the newbies have their dungeons and whatnot. Also this would make the MPCs bloom. Siince the lvl 18 heroes are feasting on their RP somewhere else.   

 As for lowering other areas.

I'm not sure. Well of course it isn't fun for a person that lives in Port not being able to fart without keeling over, But like someone mentioned.. perhaps two zones in Port could be scaled down for the matter.

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Feronius

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2012, 03:52:28 AM »
What if I told you, Neo, that there are players who live in Dementlieu and there actually is a good part of the playerbase that spends most of their time there?

What if I also told you that there are a few people who spend time in the village of Barovia mostly? And that people regularly make endeavors to play in domains like Har'Akir and elsewhere?

While I am currently one of the players in Dementlieu, I must also confirm that I spend a very large portion of my time there on my own at the moment. By far the majority of it.
My character isn't of the designated level for the region, so he truly can't do anything when there are no others around. No crafting, no dungeons or any combat, nothing.

I also tried the Village of Barovia for a while and perhaps it's just the timezone I'm in, but I ran into so few people there I decided I might as well move back to Vallaki, which has a very similar setting anyhow.



People -are- making an effort to create a sort of secondary hub in Dementlieu and on a slightly smaller scale the Village of Barovia, but it's tiresome and definitly not encouraged by the way the server is designed.
For nearly every feature or system the server supports, you're currently far better off in Vallaki. Especially if you are not in the double digits levels, then it's pretty much required to stay in Vallaki if you want to do anything else besides plain text-based RP.

Although I must admit those passive jobs are a good step in the right direction, it gives my low level character in Dementlieu to earn cash for basic things such as drinks, food, a room, dye and props to support his RP (like writing materials.)
But it definitly wouldn't hurt to have a more gradual difficulty curve in zones and a broader scope of levels in other domains.
What I really think is needed more than that though, are portals in the new character zone to areas such as Dementlieu, the Drain, etc. So people aren't forced to always start in Barovia or required to poke a DM for a teleport.
(Although it would probably be wise to place a few "DANGER - Higher level areas!" signs to indicate that Barovia is still the primary zone for starting players to go to.)

dutchy

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2012, 05:25:00 PM »
i honestly only need to go to vallaki if its either plot related thus need to find certain ppl.
or
when i need healing potions badly.

beside those two options i dont have to head that way the village or mist camp provides me plenty, and i am a 15+ lvl  so it's what you make of it and what channels you have created.
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BalorVale

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Re: Again; Diffusion.
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2012, 06:36:10 PM »
I think I saw this in a post elsewhere but how about making the Vallaki region not yeald XP for lvl 10 and anbove?

The reason for that people loiter in vallaki is the certainty of RP. This would nicely "force" players to head elsewhere and let the newbies have their dungeons and whatnot. Also this would make the MPCs bloom. Siince the lvl 18 heroes are feasting on their RP somewhere else.   

 As for lowering other areas.

I'm not sure. Well of course it isn't fun for a person that lives in Port not being able to fart without keeling over, But like someone mentioned.. perhaps two zones in Port could be scaled down for the matter.

Ohoho! My Idea IT Liiiiiiives!!! *Crackles of Lightning* Bwahahaha!!