Author Topic: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely  (Read 37220 times)

Misted_Horror

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Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« on: July 29, 2012, 12:10:06 PM »
Items and gold are rediculously easy to get, most of the true-seeing monsters can be mechanically bypassed by 90% of the current ninja-looters and before anyone says anything, it's how pretty much everyone gets their stock. At the moment, gold prices will just go up and up due to inflation. Playing the game normally, doing a dungeon might need you 5k, and maybe one sub-par item if you're lucky enough to get a dungeon before it gets grinded out.

Ninja-looting, you can make roughly 20-40k an hour in sellable trinkets, and another 5-10k on top of that from items that are found. Not to mention most 'merchant groups' have dedicated ninja-looters to get them items. I can guarantee you, if this happened, less people would be looked at as loot batteries and a LOW-MAGIC server would remain LOW-MAGIC.

One thing I will use to prove this, is the magic levels of NCW. The amount of stuff floating around due to ninja-looting was rediculous, I myself even found that ninja-ing during NCW was profitable as hell. I know, it's an old, beaten horse.. but the fact it's still around is.. odd, I think.

Not to mention it bypasses the mechanics of lowering the ECL of the dungeon. So you can just wait for the respawn timer and go at it for round two. If the dungeon was actually cleared, you can bet it wouldn't reach max-spawn again, because it'd be getting farmed out.

HellsPanda

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2012, 12:18:25 PM »
The issue isnt actually mechanics, its mindset of players. And nothing the script or rules can do will ever change this. If we make the server to restrictive in rules by completely banning stealth looting, we will have to make rules against every action certain players dislike. Its better if the players took personal responsibility.

BalorVale

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2012, 12:48:08 PM »
The issue isnt actually mechanics, its mindset of players. And nothing the script or rules can do will ever change this. If we make the server to restrictive in rules by completely banning stealth looting, we will have to make rules against every action certain players dislike. Its better if the players took personal responsibility.
Agreed. People will find a way to get the best loot possible with the least amount of work, this does inflate the economy, but it is too widespread to stop. DM's will just have t constantly police characters and this act will continue anyways, and arguments may crop up "My Character is a master thief, that's his character I'm just playing my Character" It's a can of worms, it is a mindset.

Strigoi

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2012, 12:56:17 PM »
in every multiplayer game online, your find people who are going to exploit systems if they can.

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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 12:58:43 PM »
The loot of the NCE was craptastic, except for the loot generated by players who were exploiting the MPC template and received bans for it.
Ninjalooting is a boon to every dungeoneer as it protects spawn levels,  EXCEPT the places with Blasphemes or Ooze/Jelly or their ilk, which absolutely force you to avoid the place entirely or kill them first (which ruins the spawn of course).
Its all about perspective. The actual practice itself is not nearly as widespread as you apparently believe anyway. At times I can be a prolific dungeoning player, and I can not ever remember seeing a place with monsters but no loot, ever. In years worth of playing.


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APorg

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 01:13:18 PM »
The loot of the NCE was craptastic, except for the loot generated by players who were exploiting the MPC template and received bans for it.

+1

Ninjalooting, especially places which are worth it, are not without their risks.

Quote
Ninjalooting is a boon to every dungeoneer as it protects spawn levels,  EXCEPT the places with Blasphemes or Ooze/Jelly or their ilk, which absolutely force you to avoid the place entirely or kill them first (which ruins the spawn of course).

Another exception is that some dungeons have spawns that kill each other if they get into sight.
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BalorVale

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 01:14:50 PM »
As Crimson is saying, it is also fair to say that ninja-looters are at a constant risk, if they die, it is most likely they went alone, and now they are dead. Losing all of thier "Earned" coin and possibly a chunk of experience points to revive themselves at the mist.

Budly

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2012, 02:21:37 PM »
As Crimson is saying, it is also fair to say that ninja-looters are at a constant risk, if they die, it is most likely they went alone, and now they are dead. Losing all of thier "Earned" coin and possibly a chunk of experience points to revive themselves at the mist.

You are also at risk from stealing in real life. It do not justify it.

Daboomer

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2012, 02:29:53 PM »
come now, it's just a game. I'm no fan of looting trough area that wayto gain money though. But i do confess i at times do such at say the von zeklos crypt but the only thing i take then is herbs growing beneath.

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 02:51:41 PM »
So what is the In Character reason to justify no ninja looting ? If we start banning behavior we OOC don't like then for IC then it will be lots of banning. Ninja looting all function with in the game mechanic and it is IC behavior as well as OOC. If you find someone ninja yours loot while you are doing the dungeon Kill that say person or spread his infamy through the realm IC way. Using OOC method just not the way to do it.

Then you start banning soloing because he getting the loot all by himself and not sharing.  Frankly i don't care people ninja looting, i prefere they let the spawn alone and let it grow so that i can come and harvesting it and loot be damn i want XP !!. And yes i solo and proud of it. I also ninja 2 or 3 times in 6 moths RL just to check if there new loots in the tablet. But mostly I prefere buying items from another Ninja iam so happy that there are players that selling it insted of hoarding them. And no i don't Share my stuffs with any noobs so no worries about economics there i like hoarding as well  8).

Winter83

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 02:57:06 PM »
I am always a supporter of solutions which are handled in IC creative ways as a reaction to certain Mechanical properties.
Would my character be bothered at the lack of quality loot, I would start investigating, how comes that lately the 'monsters' fail to rob enough magical items, they usually do.

Start a movement against the looters, petition against Grave robbers. And yes, it can easily can merchants to have their wares inflate. Even better, more quality RP conflicts it can cause.

Furthermore I don't mind when thief-ish characters walk on this pass, however they will never beat anyone who's using invisibility. Which is very easy to acquire and abuse. Invisible people are better scouts, thieves and when finally a Thief reaches effective level to be able to loot freely it's around Level 10-ish. (Without invis I mean)

Perhaps opening chests to break the invisibility might solver issues, as removing loot from boxes whilst in stealth is in itself rather risky, giving a huge detriment to stealth, alerting mobs.


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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 03:12:35 PM »
I most 100% definitely agree with Misted_Horror about how powerful ninjalooting is. I use to be an avid and frequent ninja looter, in the times of the day where I didn't have anyone to play with and I was bored as hell. I will go over my arguments on why Its completely ridiculous, and the arguments on what people give on why it should stay, from the perspective of a ninja looter.

:arrow: "There is a risk involved in ninja looting."

Sure, there is a risk in ninja looting the high-end dungeons for the best loot, but most of the time that isn't what I'm after. There are several average level to mid level dungeons that drop some pretty valid options for equipment, and most importantly, players would want to pay for them. If they don't, I could still fetch a nice price for an item at the Mist Camp. To prove a point in this regard I made a character, level 3 wizard with 6 hit points at the time, and managed to make 100k in roughly a few hours of an average persons playtime by ninja looting a few certain dungeons. I died once because of a silly issue, but I just respawned (with no XP hit because I was level 3) and returned to the dungeon and collected my lost gold. The specific dungeons you want to hit as a ninja looter, have excellent profits and little risk for any character or level.

:arrow: "Ninja looting doesn't hurt the spawnrates, no one else is getting hurt."

Gold doesn't mean anything to the people who ninjaloot frequently. It means as much to me as a counterfeit bill does to a crook.. It only takes the time to run my printing presses to get something I want, whether that be potions from other players, scrolls from other players or the NPC shops, items from PC merchants, you get the idea. Items that other players, who rightfully earned their gold by doing the dungeons themselves, can't have. This makes gold less valuable to other players, because they have less to spend it on.




I just had a brain fart, I definitely had other reasons to say but I didn't want to forgo what I've said already. I really hate what ninjalooting can do to the setting, there isn't any sort of IC justifaction to combat ninjalooting. It needs to be a strictly prohibited act on the server that DMs make a stand against.

APorg

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 03:39:50 PM »
I think prohibiting it OOC is going to open up a real nightmare for the CC and DMs. I would really prefer it that the DMs spent their time running scenes and the CC spent its time reiewing positive apps from MPCs and stuff than to turn into a looting police. That's just going to suck for everyone involved.

If Ninjalooting is so bad, then let's continue developing IC ideas to make it harder and riskier than it is. Breaking invisibility for using a crowbar was a good start. Any other suggestions?
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HellsPanda

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2012, 04:15:54 PM »
Rhymo, as I said its a matter of mindset. The alternative would be that players started grinding those same dungeons solo, which would do far more annoyance to the community as a whole

Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 04:17:21 PM »
I think the profitable places that used to be done over and over by people making money are either.....    nerfed to sucky xp and loot so no longer done at all (Shadow Caves, Ice Palace)  or have had monsters added that see anyone straight away (Vampires of Baratak)    I have been lately doing the shadows of sullen woods, not for money, but for their actual carcasses...  and sure the loot drops are easy to get to invisible and nothing will see you but its the most craptastic stuff you can find unless there are Greater Shadow Fiends, who do pose a risk anyway so balance is restored...     Har'akir has potential of exploit, but there are   a) keys obtainment needed and b) traps galore.  Around the village, there is the one way death trap endurance run of the well (no one will ever ninja loot that place, even for the key, its just too chocked jam packed with enemies to squeeze through)  there is the Ivlis Marsh...  (leeches and elder crystal oozes see you straight away, the best stuff is actually on the hag when she is killed anyway)  Forest Fane  (can be done, but any movement and the Hag TSs her self and then debuffs the ninja looter who is immediately spanked if not reacting quick enough to run all the way out, again the best stuff is actually on the hag's dead body). There is Chernovog, which is completely not doable as the demons have unnerfed TS.  Hm...    I mean. Its possible to get rich ninja looting, but it takes repetition and good spawns like any other method of making money. Its not "easier" other than you don't have to go about finding a group. None of these places are hard, I start killing hags at level 7-8 if i care to and/or have a good partner or two. Making money is easy easy easy easy easy,  by any which way you want to.  I make 20k game session by standing in the same place just by selling potions and varnish if i want to.  If too much money is the issue you want to combat (i dunno why to be honest, if you ask around there are players who actually think its soooooo hard to afford nice things or find them, just ask around) there are many other things that need to be done to "fix" what is not really a problem. I just prefer to sink the money into other PCs played by other people by paying them for things. Put all your massive earnings into something if you have too much money.


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Winter83

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2012, 04:30:17 PM »
Hard and easy are rather relative terms. It's just like the same as assuming 'Disjoiner potions' are common on PCs.

Some builds get easier access to loot and stuff, while others don't. For instance my character has absolutely no IC reason to do dungeons unless necessary, thus making money is straining. Even though he'd be able to sell herbs and varnishes all day long, but ICly I keep cautious selling 'near-vraja' material on the outskirts other than pure medical pots.

I could of course just ninja-loot places for the coins, but that would be so OOC (Like fading into another not Character dimension to support Character needs), so I rather stick to hunting minks.  :lol:


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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 04:44:05 PM »
Rhymo, as I said its a matter of mindset. The alternative would be that players started grinding those same dungeons solo, which would do far more annoyance to the community as a whole

If they started solo grinding those dungeons, it is at least balanced out and the economy does not suffer from the 'counterfeiting' aspect that ninjalooting offers.

HellsPanda

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2012, 04:47:10 PM »
true, but you would never ever see a dungeon thats interesting to do again, I have seen what happens when people go into solo grind mode, and its that anyone who takes the time to gather a group and RPs dungeon trips, will never see a dungeon

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2012, 05:41:35 PM »
Rhymo, as I said its a matter of mindset. The alternative would be that players started grinding those same dungeons solo, which would do far more annoyance to the community as a whole

If they started solo grinding those dungeons, it is at least balanced out and the economy does not suffer from the 'counterfeiting' aspect that ninjalooting offers.

If I wanted to earn money, it certainly wouldn't be through ninja looting.

Gilad Abrams

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2012, 05:48:02 PM »


I could of course just ninja-loot places for the coins, but that would be so OOC (Like fading into another not Character dimension to support Character needs), so I rather stick to hunting minks.
[/quote]

How's it OCC to need money and be broke? It may be somewhat out of character, but the need for money drives many people IRL as easily as IG
To do things out of character or that are not part of your normal routine.

Winter83

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2012, 06:37:08 PM »


I could of course just ninja-loot places for the coins, but that would be so OOC (Like fading into another not Character dimension to support Character needs), so I rather stick to hunting minks.

How's it OCC to need money and be broke? It may be somewhat out of character, but the need for money drives many people IRL as easily as IG
To do things out of character or that are not part of your normal routine.
[/quote]

OOC for my character. I try not to treat dungeons as ATM machines, giving out cash if I am low on it. "Hey I can't afford tsuika? Let's kill a lich, he always respawns, and strangely makes all his loot respawn also"


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Ingwulf

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2012, 06:42:05 PM »
This is something that the player that does the looting has on his hands. No one else can change this like there has  been mentioned in this post many times now it is a mindset, a choice to play like this.

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Vaku

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2012, 06:43:28 PM »
A solution that comes to mind is to simply introduce creatures that can spot intruders into dungeons that have been listed as having poor security. Is that not sensible?

Moreover simply modifying existing spawns to be able to spot intruders is a viable option.

If a good number of us are saying it's too easy, it's time to make the encounter more challenging.

As for myself, I'm anticipating Sithicus to learn what sort of paradigms will be shattered going into that place.

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2012, 06:47:02 PM »
Rogues and Invis character's can ninja loot correct?

Have you seen the heath bars of those characters. A level 11 rogue can ninja loot the village of barovia ML temple easy but they can fight the monsters, A level 11 paladin could kill the undead they live there and get the loot + exp. on the whole it balances out.

Stop making it harder to play rogues on the server.

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LawfulJoe

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Re: Outlawing Ninjalooting - Completely
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2012, 07:19:54 PM »
Rogues and Invis character's can ninja loot correct?

Have you seen the heath bars of those characters. A level 11 rogue can ninja loot the village of barovia ML temple easy but they can fight the monsters, A level 11 paladin could kill the undead they live there and get the loot + exp. on the whole it balances out.

Stop making it harder to play rogues on the server.

+1 this Rogues are weak physically, the abilitiy to sneak in... undetected... and STEAL loot, is that not what a rogue does? If detected, it becomes a flight and fight for your life. Rogue are also usually solo operators, so if killed while dungeoning alone (and by my game play philosophy, this is a perma-death for any of my pcs) there is noone to save you, noone to "Happen by", you are now just like those placeable bones you see in caves and dungeons. They have to come from somewhere, I would guess botched looting attempts.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 07:25:17 PM by LawfulJoe »