Optional Perma Death

[dark_majico]

So Amon and a few other members of the community have spoken about how they would accept death of certain characters whenever it happend. I am toying with this idea, but it would be helpfull if in the new character creation area we had a lever or a button that created a none return token on your character, meaning respawning was not an option, wandering as a ghost however could be an option if you wanted to continue to roleplay as a ghost, maybe via this token the only way to cxome back to life was a resurection spell, as apposed to a raise dead, there could be a timer on the resurection to make it even more authentic. I think there is a lot you can do with this idea.

[Winter83]

That's a pretty neat idea. There is a system on Arelith which is optional, you can choose to play hardcore, giving you a certain ammounts of lives. When it's gone, your toon is gone forever.

More lives than one is useful as accidents do happen, like griefers, transition gank or other unintentional stuff. So that's there the 10 lives option. I can tell you that option made peaple extra careful.

Maybe a 5 lives option, and add some bonus to char XP gain or something to encourage ppl using it.

[Badelaire]

You could just have some self discipline and decide "this character's story is over" and just not respawn. A good roleplayer doesn't need a mechanical system to make them decide when their narrative is over. No one is forcing a player to perma/not perma their character, it's entirely up to them. The systems on Arelith might sound interesting but I'm sure more players here would be irked as hell if they lost a "life" due to something silly and out of their hands like lag, faction bugs or a griefer as mentioned.

I liked City of Arabel's "vault clean" service where, if dying, you decided that your character's story was over and had no intention of reentering them back into the game world you chose a line of dialogue in the Fugue Plane from an NPC (essentially moving on to their chosen god's realm) and the character was earmarked for deletion from the server vault next reset. Players who had main characters whose story ended with some tragic/heroic death and did that were considered to have some big cajones indeed.

[dark_majico]

Well I for one don't have as much discapline as I would like, and a trip to Oz to see the Wizard to ask him for some is not an option, so it looks like I need some help and a mechanic would be perfect, hense the suggestion. Luckily I'm all set for sarcasm though 

[Badelaire]

Well I for one don't have as much discapline as I would like, and a trip to Oz to see the Wizard to ask him for some is not an option, so it looks like I need some help and a mechanic would be perfect, hense the suggestion. Luckily I'm all set for sarcasm though  

[Sarcastic response]

Done!

[Metal_ash]

I not think it be needed.

When you die you just have to stay dead and not play that character anymore to call it a perm death. Even if raised you not have to pick up your corpse in that way you stay dead.

I for one is happy as it is with the death system.
Characters can be perm death by DM event, IC events that in the end leads to a characters final end, or  the player just think it is over and done with that character and remains dead.


Even if i decided my character next time he dies should be perm dead i sure would not be happy if that death was from a lag or something odd like that, then more or less stand without the option to get back.

I see no reason for such a system.

Anyways, just my opinion.

// Cheers!

[Seniies]

I think something in the lines of preventing the char from living again that's strictly player optional would be great, I don't like seeing suicides walking around again after they told everyone to look at them, gave a speech, then blew there own head off with a pistol from port.

[dark_majico]

That's a pretty neat idea. There is a system on Arelith which is optional, you can choose to play hardcore, giving you a certain ammounts of lives. When it's gone, your toon is gone forever.

More lives than one is useful as accidents do happen, like griefers, transition gank or other unintentional stuff. So that's there the 10 lives option. I can tell you that option made peaple extra careful.

Maybe a 5 lives option, and add some bonus to char XP gain or something to encourage ppl using it.

5 lives, thats another good idea, 10 might be a bit excsesive, I dont agree with an XP bonus, even if it is tiny. My reason for suggesting this mechanic is because once its on its on, and there is a real danger in loosing a PC, which makes it exiting. There just isnt excitment knowing I could respawn, because I know I would! Its like when I tell myself I wont eat all the buiscits I bought to go in the top cuboard, in less than 3 days Ive gotten through both packets, wild horses wouldn't keep me away from them.

[Merrien]

I don't think it's necessary; cheesy returns from death will still be around and those who want to do perma deaths just do them.  I'm not saying it's a BAD idea, but everything you add to the server makes things bigger and often slower, so why add something unless it's a great improvement? 

[RigorMortis]

     The problem with the limited lives or the absolute permadeath is the fact that it would create a larger "winning" mentality, for instead of just being dead, a large inconvinience, you LOSE your character forever. It would increase the amount of complaints the CC and DMs would recieve from players, sure it would be more horrific and atmospheric OOCly, but there is always the fact that people will take it to OOC heart as an attack on their person.

     Imagine your doing a delivery to the fishing lodge, when a were-beast confronts you, not knowing you have permadeath turned on, he attacks you and WHOOPS forgot subdual mode, now because of a very little often forgotten mistake your character is dead, forever.

Another situation I have encountered is when enemies camp transitions, or even a single deadly trap can send your character to oblivion, lives are not going to solve a problem with mechanics, it gives the system five mistakes, not just the person, five mistakes COMBINED. It would just stack up problems for the already addled DM Volunteer team, and the CC.

   As people have been saying; If you truly want your character closured, then don't come back, easy as that.

[Sewerfish]

I'm agreeing with Merrien. It wouldn't fix anything.  I also think we already have an optional perma death system. We are free to end our PCs at any time we like. The way we have it now, no one will get frustrated because they had a bummer/badluck death with their PC. A mechanic that holds players to some prearranged contract seems unnecessary. If a player wants to be more strict with PC death, they can sign up on one of the threads where players list PCs they are playing with a permadeath agreement.

I also agree with Rigor, If players are on this system and their PC is killed in PvP they don't think was fair (in other words, they they loose  ), there are likely to be more hard feelings than we currently have. Not positive.

[Merrien]

And it'd lead to some "hey DM/Dev, can you fix this because I lag-died..." 

[Strife]

And it'd lead to some "hey DM/Dev, can you fix this because I lag-died..."

 These sort of requests happen now, and that goes for many of the other scenarios listed below too.

 I use to be a strong supporter of perma death but have changed my stance to a more neutral postion. Largely due to the fact that while I might support perma death, the person next to me won't and it's much easier for me to walk away from a pc then it is for other to accept the perma death of his/hers.

 

[Heretic]

I can foresee a lot of requests to undo a glitch, bug perma because of this, increasing DM team workload. Best way is to lead by example. If you engage into this sort of dynamic vs groups in world, you should always be open to reach end with your character. It is a thing of mutual consideration, but you should be ready and open to discuss such possibilities with the other player about possible outcomes.

I had a pally whom I closured because of a 1st PvP loss vs Mayvind's character Sharian once. The Paladin had previously decimated the entire Isu blood cult and Sharian had fled. She killed him many months later. It would have been unfair to keep him alive after all the damage he had done, it fit the story (and the risk vs reward) for the other party, than to bring him to an end, was good karma. Discussed with Mayvind best outcomes, she chose to turn him into a Ghoul, keep him as a pet...

I'd love to see more of that, specially with the whole Seniies, Romar situation and not on their end, but on the end of those who are hunting them, its only fair that if those characters would fail, that they consider what I wrote above.

I guess what I am saying is that you should consider focusing on story 'closure', rather than on mechanical one.

[Feronius]

Perma Death is already optional. Not much use in having an option that permakills you and that wouldn't stop you from remaking or rerolling a similar character either.

[APorg]

I'd love to see more of that, specially with the whole Seniies, Romar situation and not on their end, but on the end of those who are hunting them, its only fair that if those characters would fail, that they consider what I wrote above.

Honestly, I think a large part of the caution and reluctance (at least, on my part and on the part of those I talk to) behind those hunting Senies, Romar and Lin has come because they take the threat from those PCs seriously; the phrase "perma death" has never entered the discussion as such but failure in such circumstances, at such high levels of PvP, is by default assumed to have pretty severe consequences. But that's a tangent

[dutchy]

yeah none of us have the balls for it unless we are sure that we win.

so in a way the hunters are trying to be fair i suppose.

but the perma thing a taken would be nice  but i dunno  it is what H said  a new source for bugs that arnt needed, it will add frustration  once a dm doesnt agree that the dead was unjustefied  then it wil be a CC issue   well you catch the drift.

[Merrien]

I can foresee a lot of requests to undo a glitch, bug perma because of this, increasing DM team workload. Best way is to lead by example. If you engage into this sort of dynamic vs groups in world, you should always be open to reach end with your character. It is a thing of mutual consideration, but you should be ready and open to discuss such possibilities with the other player about possible outcomes.

I had a pally whom I closured because of a 1st PvP loss vs Mayvind's character Sharian once. The Paladin had previously decimated the entire Isu blood cult and Sharian had fled. She killed him many months later. It would have been unfair to keep him alive after all the damage he had done, it fit the story (and the risk vs reward) for the other party, than to bring him to an end, was good karma. Discussed with Mayvind best outcomes, she chose to turn him into a Ghoul, keep him as a pet...

I'd love to see more of that, specially with the whole Seniies, Romar situation and not on their end, but on the end of those who are hunting them, its only fair that if those characters would fail, that they consider what I wrote above.

I guess what I am saying is that you should consider focusing on story 'closure', rather than on mechanical one.

+1

[primaloath]

I very much like the idea of giving the characters the option to permadeath after they die, at the pillar of light that normally lets you either respawn or wander around as a ghost before being raised. The permadeath would wipe the character from the server vault, which is something I really, really want to be able to do.

I am worried about turning on permadeath on character creation, or any time before you die, however, simply because bugs, glitches and area transition insta-ganks do happen, and most people don't want to lose their character to them.

[LawfulJoe]

I have to agree with Beladiere, from way back when this thread began. Self Control, yeah sometimes it sucks, so here is the happy medium I use.

I am playing my drow, and say, he is killed by wererats (This has happened).

  First I wait, see if the natural clotting process saves him.
  While clotting I check the player list to see if anyone that makes sense is in the area. I would not ask a guarda pc for help, but if another Caliban was, I would send them a tell that basicly said, "Are you near the drain entrance". Some people might cry meta gaming, but it happens, has always happened, and it was a randomly generated monster that killed him, not part of some DM plot or a PvP situation, just trying to leave the Drain and got hit by wererats, so his death or survival would not change or effect the course of a plotline.
  If noone is on that knows the PC or would make sense in game to be in the area, then the option of a rescue is off the table
  If a clot happens, I do the best I can to survive.
  If a death happens, and noone is around to help, then that is the end of the story, and I play another PC.
  First Rule - If the Death came in a DMed event, then that is were it stands, the PC is dead unless somehow saved, either by other members in the event or some other unexpected event, no assistance will be asked for, it has to be player driven or plot driven, but in this case, dead is dead.
  Rule 2 - If the Death is from a PC PvP and it all makes sense, roleplay was good, then death mean dead, no request to be saved will be made, again unless player or plot driven.
  Rule 3 - Under no circumstances will i respawn, it might as well not be an option

That is it, and that is how I play. How you play is up to you.

LawfulJoe

[dark_majico]

I very much like the idea of giving the characters the option to permadeath after they die, at the pillar of light that normally lets you either respawn or wander around as a ghost before being raised. The permadeath would wipe the character from the server vault, which is something I really, really want to be able to do.

I am worried about turning on permadeath on character creation, or any time before you die, however, simply because bugs, glitches and area transition insta-ganks do happen, and most people don't want to lose their character to them.

Thats another idea, which I like, unsure if I prefer eit that way around though, I suppose I will have to digest that.

The rest of you I think are not giving the player base enough credit where it is due, if a player is grown up enough to decide he wants to have a none respawning character then I think you should assume that they would not ask DM's to ask they fix lag deaths, or a PVP death. We all know PVP happens and not everyone uses the sub duel mode, we all know mobs get lucky shots and we loose a fight, and we all know sometimes (very rarely mind you) that the module gets a little laggy, its a fact of life, like the fact anyone can walk across a road when its on green and a brainless lunatic will skip a red light and run you over.  They can put a disclaimer on that warns you that lag deaths, pvp, and transition spawns wont be rectified, and a second chance to forgoe the mechanic, if you then decide to continue then thats your choice. Also consider not everyone will by default have this on, its perfectly reasonable to assume most people will not give it to there main characters, and may only decide to give it to (temporary) side characters.