Author Topic: A proposal on removing Lizuca  (Read 31548 times)

Honoun

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #200 on: August 31, 2012, 09:33:34 AM »
I've been more or less active since 2006, and never made a character high level. I find max 12 levels much more interesting than having a big hero all around. :P But yeah, like I said, there are some who actually know how to affect the issue.
Taking away something is never the right solution for people above age 15. That's when you should motivate them through positive means. In this case, play with them.

Guess you don't know what the feeling is like in other domains when you venture with your high level and still get owned by AI driven critters... Its a whole new ball game it is  :mrgreen:

JerrodAmolyan

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #201 on: August 31, 2012, 09:57:59 AM »
Well, still, to end the sidetrack here: Removing Liz doesn't resolve the problem. Being around low levels and helping them will resolve it. That's how I see it, atleast.
I used to play Benjamin Black-Hand, aka. Crow.

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RedwizardD

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #202 on: August 31, 2012, 11:19:17 AM »
Well, still, to end the sidetrack here: Removing Liz doesn't resolve the problem. Being around low levels and helping them will resolve it. That's how I see it, atleast.

This. This exactly.

Honoun

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #203 on: August 31, 2012, 11:31:02 AM »
Being around low levels and helping them out does not require Liz to be there or not.  ;)

RedwizardD

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #204 on: August 31, 2012, 11:36:34 AM »
The low levels cannot survive without a dedicated resurrection capable cleric there when there are very few high level clerics around. Most of the ones I'm aware of in the outskirts on a regular basis are Ezrites. who are supposed to only help other Ezrites.

Honoun

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #205 on: August 31, 2012, 11:46:33 AM »
Granted, but the point was to hang out with low levels and help them out. Having Liz there or not is beside that point. Such that I'm not sure why the point was made. You however have provided a IC reason why some players don't help low levels so again the point is rather moot in that light as well.

And now I'm getting confused.... What were we talking about again?

PsychedelicShroom

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #206 on: August 31, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »
moots or something...

RedwizardD

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #207 on: August 31, 2012, 12:02:17 PM »
Let's talk alternatives. How about finding an incentive for non-Ezrites to stick around? I know there were a number of Morning Lord priests a while back but I don't see them in the outskirts as much anymore.

armybrat69

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #208 on: August 31, 2012, 01:58:01 PM »
Really though... Being a new player / making a new character is climbing assforward into a tree as it is. It's because of YOU people, yes, YOU people, have high level characters and are almost never present in the vallaki area. :D That's why new players / characters need Liz to be there to raise, cure disease and whatnot. There's still plenty of things she CAN'T do, for one: Remove curses or drains. For that, you need the so-much-spoken healers... who are never there. Most of you play a mage anyway... in a mage-despising environment... ;) I'd say until that is more carefully monitored, pounding the new players isn't fair either.

Someone mentioned "not fair for monster players" ? Really? Monster players in Ravenloft -REPRESENT- "not fair" in all it's meaning, being so OP, that a lvl 20 fighter has a hard time beating lvl 10 wraith. Just saying...
And one of the points I wanted to get out, was that you keep shouting out "go in a group". Do so, when you guys are playing exclusively lvl 10+ to 20 characters, and not that many low levels to go fiddle with the sewers for example, remain.

MY vote, considering all these harsh truths, would be to make the cooldown between heals longer indeed.
It's easy for veterans to complain about having a NPC "bot" do stuff for newbies, and forget that they too did use the same bot to help get them to that veteran level. Claiming otherwise would be a big fat lie, and you guys know it :P
Before complaining, think of "what if this stuff happened to me, and I was new here?"

Sad to say that while there are nice people in the community, there's alot of thick headed high level players, who really don't make a newcomer feel very welcome.
If you want to do something about the mindset of botrunning allaround, make a new low lvl character to SUPPORT the group play of newbies, and help them get acquainted with the server and stuff.
That's what I do. I always keep a few lvl 2 - 6 characters with me on the vault to help beginners.
That's how you'd -really- resolve this problem. And you know I'm right. ;)

There is a reason why high lvl players do not linger in the vallaki area. First of all it only kills xp for the lowbies that try to dungeon. Another thing, I have seen too many lowish lvl mpcs try to add fear/excitement by attacking the outskirts and only to become hunted by us high lvl chars. Sometimes I will hang around in Vallaki if there is an rp reason for it, and if I see someone in need of healing/restoration/etc I will help on my ML char. Try not to focuss on those thick headed players and give more praise/ compliments to the ones that help you out. Besides let the high lvl guys complain Liz isn't   going anywhere.
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JerrodAmolyan

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #209 on: September 02, 2012, 04:37:52 AM »
Well, with my minirant there, I tried to make precisely the point I stated after. Removing liz doesn't resolve the problem. (And this goes for Honoun's comment too: What you said, was not my point. Even with the few of us hanging around outskirts, many are on different timezones. Like I've said, Liz mustn't be removed, 'cause currently she is -needed-. but get her healing rate decreased in time. make it 20 minutes IRL or so, until she heals you again. Is my vote.)

Being around low levels more, instead of always playing your high lvl characters, make a new one for support. ALSO, don't make an overly touchy character that get's pissed off at the slightest little insult someone makes, and refuses to help then. Swallow your pride and grow as a person, is what I do :P And besides having an overly touchy female character who is super feminist, is so last year's anime, I find such characters rather dull to be around. Anyway! Don't remove things, try and ADD things that are helpful and interesting by yourselves. It doesn't help if you make a character who only helps those that are "Nice guys". Try making a "I don't care what you think of me, I'll still make sure you won't kick the bucket." character, 'cause those -really- help :)
I know this one will get alot of b-ing from players of sensitive characters :D But I'll just say this: Before you complain about this, think of what I really meant. I'd like to think I'm among'st adults here. :P If you still would persist in complaining about how your overly sensitive char is so interesting... Also then explain how exactly would he/she be of help to the low level characters who actually have a personality, other than "I am happy and I love equality" robots.

I'm sure many of you are dying to know what do I base this stuff, and I'm glad you didn't ask, because now I can tell you anyway: Experiences and experimenting on MY low level character Cord Skinner. That's where I base my words. Not giving any names, because that'd be immature, I'm going to give an example of how you precisely do not help the other lowbies on the server: He comes from a world where females have their traditional place in the society, and the mindset is "Men hunt, wives prepare the food."
When he said so out loud (He's also a bit of a smartmouth) and a certain someone outright refused to come and help his group at all. That sort of sensitivity, I'm sure, is very original and fun (Only that it's every female character I've ever run accross in the servers.). But that doesn't really help lowbies to survive. If your character wants to be like that, alright, but why not try an alternative: Engage in IC argument and tag along just to annoy this sexist fellow, and prove him that women belong in the adventure just as much as men do. I mean... if you're good enough in RP, IC battles of words between characters can be -very- rewarding to both parties involved. Some of my personal favorite moments have been IC arguments. What about that? You get insulted by a country hick, why wouldn't you tag along just to make his life miserable? OOCly, you'd make the players in the party have more fun, if you can handle it, and also make sure they don't all just croak.
I'm sure this divides alot of opinions. But I think this would solve the problem rather than removing Liz. If you help, the lowbies won't have to use the "Pocket healer" so much. To me it makes sense, at least.

EDIT: Really, I'm not trying to insult anybody here, and if I did so, I'm deeply sorry. This is my opinion, and by no means, do I declare it as ultimate truth. It is open for discussion, and a good argument against, can and will and might change my opinion overall.
Be a sport.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 04:40:26 AM by JerrodAmolyan »
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Budly

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #210 on: September 02, 2012, 05:32:14 AM »
Make a support? Do not have bitter characters? Its a roleplaying game not a MMO  :lol: Seriously.

Do not judge peoples roleplay just cause they won't follow you into a dungeon, thats a pretty low blow mate.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:34:01 AM by Budly »

Dukica

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #211 on: September 02, 2012, 05:49:09 AM »
I once offered to heal instead of Lizuca on one occasion where she went away. I barely healed anyone. One of the problems was that I didn't prepare a "cure disease", but that was the only issue.

Ercvadasz

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #212 on: September 02, 2012, 06:25:30 AM »
I once offered to heal instead of Lizuca on one occasion where she went away. I barely healed anyone. One of the problems was that I didn't prepare a "cure disease", but that was the only issue.

On my morninglordian, who is still fairly low level, despite being allmost a year old char i have all the helping spells memorised, along with cure disease, and i have on restoration on him.
But even then hardly anyone came to him for help, because with him you need to interact, with Liz just click fast.:P

Let's talk alternatives. How about finding an incentive for non-Ezrites to stick around? I know there were a number of Morning Lord priests a while back but I don't see them in the outskirts as much anymore.

Well because, they walk over to Liz, totally neglecting your char that is in the church as well.(as i said they need to interact with you, and not just click like they do on Liz)
Also many a times other players will take away the opportunity of them to do a thing. Like the good old bandagers, who can cure someone up fully with a bandage. (I used to have a char that could bandage up around 110 or so points of damage!). Or they just hand a potion over to him.
On my cleric, so far the ~best~ experiences were, that i walk over to a wounded char, preparing to rp out the healing, whereas char A jumps in drinks a few potions on him, then bandages the remaining, the other, i stand beside Liz, man needs restoration, before i could even offer my help, potion was given freely.
Both are perfectly fine solutions to the problems, however what they need is a bit of clicking(and likely no rp at all), and sadly it is seldom followed by rp.

The faction currently has quite a number of members, however there are other things they are involved in as well. Plots, subplots, info or lore gathering, whatever.
Allthough i would be more than happy if i would see some of them dungeoneer a bit less. There are ways to make mention of it IC.

Also a lot of times for morninglordians it becomes quite boring if every outlander, local, native, whomever comes over to them, and only wishes to engage in theological debates, or wishes to find out what the limit is, they can do within the temple walls, even though the rules are visible now on the forum. (Announcements and Notices thread, rules of the temple)

I hardly logg on my morninglordian, because of my other characters things. Do not forget that most of the morninglordians have a few alternative characters they wish to play as well, and sometimes you can only play on one, according to the rules.(especially if they are opposed!)
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JerrodAmolyan

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #213 on: September 02, 2012, 08:55:54 AM »
Make a support? Do not have bitter characters? Its a roleplaying game not a MMO  :lol: Seriously.

Do not judge peoples roleplay just cause they won't follow you into a dungeon, thats a pretty low blow mate.

That is true, and you also missed my point, because you went tl;dr :P but is your creativity so restrained that you can not make a character that would support other people ?
It is true that this is a roleplaying server, but Liz is needed there for lowbies. Death and dying is hard enough as it is, in PotM, and removing Liz would just discourage new players.
People tend to forget that they were "LoL these noobs" themselves in the past, before they grew to know how to RP. Let's rather encourage the growing of noobs, than these "hardcore" desires of vets.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 08:58:52 AM by JerrodAmolyan »
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Zhernebog

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #214 on: September 02, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »
That is true, and you also missed my point, because you went tl;dr :P but is your creativity so restrained that you can not make a character that would support other people ?
It is true that this is a roleplaying server, but Liz is needed there for lowbies. Death and dying is hard enough as it is, in PotM, and removing Liz would just discourage new players.
People tend to forget that they were "LoL these noobs" themselves in the past, before they grew to know how to RP. Let's rather encourage the growing of noobs, than these "hardcore" desires of vets.
While it sounds like people dislike the abuse of having a healer early on in the game, it'd be good to note without any prior knowledge of how to get anywhere or do anything in potM, you just explode. Like literally explode. Without the ability to bring characters(Especially new ones) back so conveniently, the outskirts would be filled with the wayward bodies of people who tried to get away from the death trap of the crypts.
Removing such a pivotal npc is a cancerous idea. The only possible end result is less to no new players due to frustration in having to rely on high lvl clerics who may or may not be in your time zone, may or may not have any rp reason to assist you, and may or may not even take the effort to expend the diamonds and resources.

JerrodAmolyan

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #215 on: September 02, 2012, 10:44:16 AM »
That is true, and you also missed my point, because you went tl;dr :P but is your creativity so restrained that you can not make a character that would support other people ?
It is true that this is a roleplaying server, but Liz is needed there for lowbies. Death and dying is hard enough as it is, in PotM, and removing Liz would just discourage new players.
People tend to forget that they were "LoL these noobs" themselves in the past, before they grew to know how to RP. Let's rather encourage the growing of noobs, than these "hardcore" desires of vets.
While it sounds like people dislike the abuse of having a healer early on in the game, it'd be good to note without any prior knowledge of how to get anywhere or do anything in potM, you just explode. Like literally explode. Without the ability to bring characters(Especially new ones) back so conveniently, the outskirts would be filled with the wayward bodies of people who tried to get away from the death trap of the crypts.
Removing such a pivotal npc is a cancerous idea. The only possible end result is less to no new players due to frustration in having to rely on high lvl clerics who may or may not be in your time zone, may or may not have any rp reason to assist you, and may or may not even take the effort to expend the diamonds and resources.


My words in other words, exactly :P Thank you.
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Budly

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #216 on: September 02, 2012, 11:28:37 AM »
Make a support? Do not have bitter characters? Its a roleplaying game not a MMO  :lol: Seriously.

Do not judge peoples roleplay just cause they won't follow you into a dungeon, thats a pretty low blow mate.

That is true, and you also missed my point, because you went tl;dr :P but is your creativity so restrained that you can not make a character that would support other people ?
It is true that this is a roleplaying server, but Liz is needed there for lowbies. Death and dying is hard enough as it is, in PotM, and removing Liz would just discourage new players.
People tend to forget that they were "LoL these noobs" themselves in the past, before they grew to know how to RP. Let's rather encourage the growing of noobs, than these "hardcore" desires of vets.

I did read and I think what you wrote is offensive.

First you ask for the higher levels to drop by to help the lower levels, then you change it to older players having to make supports just to help lower levels?

You do know, I have supportive characters but they are IC and not running into a dungeon with stalward crazy hat adventurers.

The whole problem is that it is abusive ICly and very weird, she seem to be more or less the Barovian Diety of Healing and Life the way she is able to heal and raise people. It has nothing to do with low levels or new players. Do not seperate us into groups, we are one community, with many individuals but we are one community and should not seperate ourself into groups. We gain nothing from having groups of "New and old" "Good and evil playing players" and what else we can have for groups.

I see your point, but your point is for old/other players to make support characters so that Lizuca will not be so used? She will be used anyway since there is a bunch of clerics about. Some people prefer quick healing and running back down then RPing with a Cleric PC or DM controlled NPC healer.

Ercvadasz

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #217 on: September 02, 2012, 12:15:55 PM »
Some people prefer quick healing and running back down then RPing with a Cleric PC or DM controlled NPC healer.

The most important part.
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VeeTpl

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #218 on: September 02, 2012, 01:31:33 PM »
Very agreed on the quote above.

Ravenloft just makes modest attempts at being appealing to more than just hardcore role-players.
Which is fine. And I think Lizuca is just the right option that should be there and remain available.

Death penalties and overall difficulty are hard as they are. And that is fine, too. A challenge that should absolutely feel like one instead of sacrificing some convenience for atmosphere. And as long as I appreciate the overall mood of the setting in POTM - too much obstacles is just annoying. Not immersive.

But for the vast major part and mechanics-wise I have no problems with how the server handles. With Lizuca included.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 01:33:49 PM by VeeTpl »
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EberronBruce

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #219 on: September 02, 2012, 02:09:38 PM »
Even though being able to RP with a PC cleric is nice and all it isn't always and option for people. I have been one when there are no other PCs that are cleric let alone having more PCs on that I can count on one hand.

Lizuca is one of those things that is a stable on the server and as such she is more reliable than any PC. She is there 24/7, so it doesn't matter if you are in New York or Tokyo, you can intact with that NPC. Some people may only have like 1 hour to play while others have more time.

Now as a ML player, I think it is possible to move here away with the faction tool, Im not sure since my faction tools is broken. If you can't then ask for DM assistance if one is available to help you. Then you can fill in the role of Lizuca for awhile and force PCs to interact with a PC ML for once.

I think she should stay or maybe swap with another NPC that does the same thing. At least you may get a different face and name.

Ercvadasz

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #220 on: September 02, 2012, 02:40:53 PM »
Even though being able to RP with a PC cleric is nice and all it isn't always and option for people. I have been one when there are no other PCs that are cleric let alone having more PCs on that I can count on one hand.

Lizuca is one of those things that is a stable on the server and as such she is more reliable than any PC. She is there 24/7, so it doesn't matter if you are in New York or Tokyo, you can intact with that NPC. Some people may only have like 1 hour to play while others have more time.

Now as a ML player, I think it is possible to move here away with the faction tool, Im not sure since my faction tools is broken. If you can't then ask for DM assistance if one is available to help you. Then you can fill in the role of Lizuca for awhile and force PCs to interact with a PC ML for once.

I think she should stay or maybe swap with another NPC that does the same thing. At least you may get a different face and name.

There are certain rules that apply to faction NPC member useage, however i do not think any oppose of removeing her.
But! Firstly you can only order an NPC that is of lower (maybe equal as well?) level than your morninglordian character. She is a dawnbringer, and likely the second most important NPC around Vallaki, so it is highly unlikely that anyone beside the Vicar and the Dawnspear may order her around. (If others can, then there may be a slight problem with the Ranking system, i never tried to move her so i do not know.)
Secondly!If you remove her, the problem may be that you take her someplace where the others do not know where she is, and if you do not have time to return her to the temple some problem may arise. Also if she is at a different place and in a not faction ~governed~ building she may be in danger, she may cause danger, etc.
Thirdly! The faction tool is broken, Soren said to use the faction feat, which is available on your radial menu. It was working perfectly about 3 or 4 weeks ago, beside that again you could not remove the NPC from your party without relogging. (Also since you are a light carrier, you may not even be ABLE to order anyone around, or ask them to join you, because of your current rank in the faction.)

The different face and name i think is a fitting one. Actually there should be a day-time priest and a night-time priest, and make their spells be a bit different as well.
(It would be nice for the night-time priest to cast only CLW(though maxed) so folks would not be that sure to challenge the night.)
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Zhernebog

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #221 on: September 03, 2012, 01:32:38 AM »
My words in other words, exactly :P Thank you.
Let's keep deferring to one another when we agree, that'd be crazy funny.

Back on topic, why fix what isn't broken? If you don't like the way someone is non-disruptively enjoying ravenloft, it might be time to go outside.

If your character finds an action the other does offensive, handle it ic.

JerrodAmolyan

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Re: A proposal on removing Lizuca
« Reply #222 on: September 03, 2012, 03:38:38 AM »
I will say this one more time: I do not "request" all vets make support characters for lowbies.
I am saying, instead of whining for someone's behavior with NPCs (And whining about the abuse of those NPCs), do something about it yourself. Try to interact or something.
If you have the nerve to complain and wish for the removal of something that is just there to make life a little easier(Regardless of having her around, many corpses are all the time in the church floor etc.), Then you ought to have the nerve to either tell the "offending" player so, or REALLY do something to help them. Complaining on the forums about "this guy did that, and that guy did this" won't really get anybody anywhere, it is sowing only various feelings from the other players, and the conversation might change from civil to uncivil in a blink.

I will stand by my opinion. Do not remove Liz. She is necessary.
I used to play Benjamin Black-Hand, aka. Crow.

Current characters: Alejandro Esteban Torres, Dietrich Ritter