Raise Dead and how it waters down conftontations

[Mayvind]

As I was not part of the "good old days" surely I don't have comparison if people 'whined' more or not. The fact that XP progression is slower, makes one care more for his character, as there are years of rp put into it, just to reach a moderate level.
However I do not see that the current player stock would 'whine' more, but here you'd need to define 'whining'. Back to the argument, mindset is indeed important, when you have tons of ways to cheat death, and get back on your feet kicking things again. Inflates death which can be only countered with RP, since mechanic modification bring a lot more difficulties.

I approve the OP's call that he/she brought up the issue for players to think about "death consequences".

Want to point out something,  XP progression was slower in the old day then currently (But there where more challenging dungeon with Boss giving better XP, where currently more dungeons but less XP cash out due to constant nerfing). It was changed that level 2 to level 10 is faster then it used to be, and that adding more feats as well. It is from 10 and up that it become " Normal" old day progression. So maybe you heard it wrong from gossip circle. It was done to promote willingness to DIE/PERMA. And iam not saying currently players are whiny. But the current rules and illusion of none perma was set because there has been whiny and OOC drama, and as time progress people realize it came from same source or person. And for some of the people good old day are different depend of POV. I been one of the longest my good OLD day date back when Heretic was a noob dwarf try to get Yves excute and calling DMs biased because Vallaki authority did not excute Yves for be a Witch.

Also good old day is something you heard yours old grand dad or mum or parents said. IT might not be true but to them compare to currently it was better. Some actually said that GOOD OLD DAY with out mobile phones or internet is better. People are more into outside activieties. Is all POV but we love to say them because it reflect our experience. Also our expectation higher cause we have seen better, or that we having less fun on RP sistuation we seen or have felt repeatedly over the years and our sense dulled and only recall the old feeling we felt when we first play here which might as well be qually good now if we are new here. But to me Good Old Day still better and it just my POV. it is curse i bare for be long time player and refuse not quit yet , just to make some people unhappy.

P.S Jeezus am Booored .. never posted so much in one day. New record .. this go into my Good Old Day Forum posting

[Merrien]

The problem with tokens/diamonds being dm rewards is that we have to few dms, it would just create an atmosphere of favouritism we do not want

I have to agree with HellsPanda on this one.  Amia gives out RP rewards (dream coins), and while it isn't a bad system of reward (there's pros and cons to most things), there are always folks who complain of favoritism on this end.  It has much more to do with luck of the draw as far as if you're in the right place/right time and actually doing some RPing at the time, but with limited # of DMs who have lives as well (le gasp), it inevitably leads to griping.  ("I did this great RP and didn't get a token!" "I hear this player has 23 tokens" "that DM only gives them to his/her friends/faction"... the list could go on).  

I try to play it with fear.  Otherwise, why be on a gothic horror server?  Playing a game with 30+ uber heroes who fear nothing reminds me more of WoW.  (And no slam to WoW either; it's fun for what it is... I enjoyed playing it for the quests and crafting.  Just... zero RP obviously).  

Even though my girls have (so far) been fortunate enough not to be eaten up by AMPCs, they all just about pee their pants if they have even a minor encounter.  

Longevitus, even though Moira kept closing that inn door on your vamp, she was scared to pieces and your RP there just reinforced to her that she is in a bad, bad place and has to be exceedingly cautious.  In other words:  yay was fun.  

[dutchy]

i have some pichforks and torches left     all we now need is ppl willing and dobian running 

[HellsPanda]

I suggest we take those pitchforks and torches and chase down dutchy instead

[Ercvadasz]

I suggest we take those pitchforks and torches and chase down dutchy instead

and after that all of HP-s chars, just because he suggested it:)

[monsinyana]

Thats why i always liked the book penalty of loosing one constitution permanently each time you die. it gives your character a finite lifespan.

after level 10 i think we should start loosing con permanently

many would bitch though


i think dangerous dm events they should also enforce perming as well. dont like it? dont go

ive seen a lot of characters munchkining and coming back when they really should retire because it makes for a better story

[XeoKai]

I try to play it with fear.  Otherwise, why be on a gothic horror server?  Playing a game with 30+ uber heroes who fear nothing reminds me more of WoW.  (And no slam to WoW either; it's fun for what it is... I enjoyed playing it for the quests and crafting.  Just... zero RP obviously).

This is the way I look at it: My character(s) have been through the Terg crypts many times, even face down Elite Vampires. They've been to Perfidus and killed Pit Fiends. They have beheaded Liches. And you want them to fear a Vampire? Respectfully, my character has no clue if this thing is a Thrall or not. Why should he fear a Werewolf or a Vampire? It doesn't mean they're suicidal and approach everything with a devil-may-care attitude, but if my character has personally experienced so much, why should I still play them like they're a greenhorn on their first excursion?

Just my two cents.

[EO]

I try to play it with fear.  Otherwise, why be on a gothic horror server?  Playing a game with 30+ uber heroes who fear nothing reminds me more of WoW.  (And no slam to WoW either; it's fun for what it is... I enjoyed playing it for the quests and crafting.  Just... zero RP obviously).

This is the way I look at it: My character(s) have been through the Terg crypts many times, even face down Elite Vampires. They've been to Perfidus and killed Pit Fiends. They have beheaded Liches. And you want them to fear a Vampire? Respectfully, my character has no clue if this thing is a Thrall or not. Why should he fear a Werewolf or a Vampire? It doesn't mean they're suicidal and approach everything with a devil-may-care attitude, but if my character has personally experienced so much, why should I still play them like they're a greenhorn on their first excursion?

Just my two cents.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is detrimental to the setting. You can justify how your character would act or react, but in the end, you, as the player behind the character, dictate what your character does and doesn't do. To respect the gothic setting we are in, some things are expected of players (much as they are from Dungeon Masters and Developers). A key part of the gothic experience is fear, fear of the unknown, fear of the dark, fear of the "creature", fear of corruption of the soul. If your character is fearless, then it is detrimental to the atmosphere of dread required by a gothic setting. You do not need to roleplay deeply to portray basic fear, though more elaborate characters with weaknesses and strengths are immensely more interesting than brave fearless villains and heroes (though a well-played zealot can be amazing as well).  Here are some helpful posts (and some guidelines/rules) regarding fear and the expectations of playing in a gothic setting:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=24287.0
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=18624.0
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=11766.0

[Winter83]

Hrm....It's kindof like a -really really- dangerous hobby. You managed to do it a few times, you know your survival partly depends on your skills, but you -NEVER EVER- can be certain to survive the next encounter, or get out intact, not crippled for the end of your life.


As a player I'd not mind if highly mysterious, magical, and horror-overdose places/creature like Perfidus, Lich stuff would be removed or be accessible through DM quests only. Instead more higher level but mundane like enemies I would welcome, like lvl 18 bandits and highwaymen (outlanders!!!), falkovian raiders, invidian invaders (all higher levels), or sithicus with angry elves.

For me its never easy to face a stress-overdosing, super-duper magical maddening places like Perfiduse or Lich tower and get out sane, bragging about it.
They are pretty awesome for the thrill, but yeah inflates horror.

More mundane stuff all around makes encounter with an elite vamp more deadly. Actually I'd raise the difficulty of the terg ruins to lvl 17-20. And the wwolf lair also. To have werebeast and vampires the über-boss monsters in Barovia.

EDIT : Lol, but if it was up to me I'd max out magic classes on level 10 also  . So super-duper magic heroes dont overrun the domains. But yeah I am hardcore. 

[Cursed Ink]

Actually I completely agree with Winter, I realised the other day that while its not a mechanical issue, my main issue with the "horror" setting at the moment is pretty much the casual way people discuss werewolves, werebears and such, I know its probably the outskirts and how there is an MPC out there every night (No real offense intended to you guys, I know you're looking for prey and thats where we are)

But its things like someone walks up to the inn rooms injured, someone asks whats wrong. "Oh, just ran into some wererats" In the gothic horror I've read people are afraid to speak about such things incase theyre called out as madmen and lunatics. Its not a mechanical thing its just something I've been musing on.

[Vespertilio]

I've always been perplexed by the jaded regard some experienced pcs seem to develop for most situations.  If taken icly the threat of becoming a lycan, undead or being a character that has lost pretty much everything is always something to fear regardless of level imo.  The higher they are the harder they fall is just one of many aspects to this fear at higher levels.  Again, I don't think the mechanics are to blame, it's ic fear being trumped by ooc knowledge and a tendency for many to see their pc as the exception to most situations that elicit fear for whatever ic reasoning.

[Winter83]

Mechanics are not to be blamed but they -DO- affect roleplay in every level. I remember before the spear weapon was two handed, none used it, even though it would had been very in-character to use it. Since it was made one-handed, a ton of PCs are using it. And as such it affects relationship between character - and weapon.

Just a little example that came to my mind.

[dutchy]

*sighs*   

I understand that the fear eventually fades away, cause you are stronger then the monster that scared you, instead of fearing it it should be replaced with caution.

Lets go for an example shall we.
Now allot of ppl on this little sphere we call earth piss there pants when they see and or hear thunder, as children most of us where afraid of it.
But we grew up we either grew over it understanding it or supressed it.
Now you aren't scared anymore of the lighting and roaring thunder, but I highly doubt you would go stand under a tree when it happends or waving you're umbrella at it, no I even doubt you would walk into a large flat area where you are the higest point.
WHY?
Cause you respect it you know you can beat it by staying near ligthing rod conducters, or staying safely indoors,   but you KNOW that it can kill you.

The mechanis have nothing to do with this, it is an attitude issue   you don't respect it then you don't portray it, I doubt half of the players realise it as it is the usual going of the roleplay events and interactions.
Well Untill a dm pops up then suddenly everyone knows how to rp fear 

ps/ if you wonder what the..... is dutchy using  punctations and has an actual build up........well no worries folks that happends when i take actual time to type things 

[XeoKai]

I tried not to comment to EO, as this is a post on Raise Dead. But, i'll go ahead and throw another, short quip in here:

I do have Roth/Decimus play caution. They were plenty scared whenever they started their adventures. As time passed on, the things to be 'afraid' of changed. Notice how I never said my characters were fearless? They're not. They just fear other things. Vampires and Werewolves are not something they fear these days. Pit Fiends and Liches, as example, are something they do...despite the fact they have killed them. Because, often, such encounters are insanely dangerous and sometimes fatal.

Raise Dead

I think Raise Dead is fine the way it is, players should maybe just enact a different mindset to their characters about it? For instance, when Decimus casts Raise Dead on a body, he become immediately tired and exhausted because handling such divinity is, in my opinion, very taxing on his own soul. Last night he had to do two in a row, I immediately RP'd him passing out when left him pretty vulnerable considered they were in the middle of the catacombs in Barovia.

 

[monsinyana]

so how come we dont have DMs overseeing PCs raising dead for a DP check
and level loss every rez?

another possible solution is automatic DP checks

zonker created an automatic DP system (and fear and horror checks) for our nwn ravenloft Core codes. anyone on the dev team want to look them over ? and see if you want to implement them?

it went all the way up to becoming a darklord and forcing your player to retire as well as some crazy random possibilities we had during play testing..

the most tragic/ironic happened to Lady fate one of our developers/testers. she ended up gaining a power where she would auto resurrect on death BUT also excreted acid fog which she was not immune to.. so she constantly kept dying and resurrecting.. (basically permed the character)

there were a few paths fully coded but it was done in such a way that it could be expanded

 if anyone is interested in looking at the codes let me know 

death should be crippling. its crippling on most nwn servers

[HellsPanda]

The DMs/Devs have always stated we do not want automatic DP checks, since that only encourages DP fishing

[DM Macabre]

Perhaps it is time to think for a sort of timer? Like your spirit can t be raised more than once in "X" days?

We had a decaying system in the times back as far as I remember. Thus corpses that were not severly wounded decayed over time, having the need to cast ressurection after a given time instead of raise. I don't know if the system is still on the server. But it was great imo.

[HellsPanda]

I think it is still in effect, but rather rare to see anyone wait that long to be raised

[Crimson Shuriken]

I still feel the same way I did on page one of this thread, deaths via player should be supported by player of the deceased in the way of keeping your pc out of play for as long as it takes for the others involved involved to resolve it, if ever.

I love that premise Mac. It does make it a monetary incentive to get things resolved quicker though, which can sometimes preclude letting all involved make a story out of it. Goods and bads on everything though.

[monsinyana]

The DMs/Devs have always stated we do not want automatic DP checks, since that only encourages DP fishing

we coded a balanced system. you got power but with a price. it wasnt really something you -wanted- to get

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

I'm entirely of the position that if you feel the effects of death are "trivial," then simply roleplay the hardship yourself. If death doesn't have crippling and lasting mechanical consequences - impose them intangibly upon your PC. You can roleplay your PC as being crippled and I rather doubt anyone is going to take opposition to that. To my knowledge, nothing stipulates that anyone is obligated to come back from the dead. If you feel your PC should be dead for more than the five minutes it takes to get back up - stay down.

Players (more or less) have absolute reign over what happens to their PC after being killed (barring DM events, etc). DMs can't even perma PCs without their permission (read: normally). If people view the system as "Oh well, I got killed by [darklord], I'll walk it off in the morning," that's what degrades the experience. The system only permits people to take certain actions. It doesn't mean we have to take them.

[respawnaholic]

This is actually a pretty old issue. I remember an almost identical encounter where Morticia Corpori had a hostage and threatened to kill them if the group surrounding her didn't back off. Needless to say they promptly rushed her. She killed the hostage, ganked a few of the lower levels and wandered off finally bored with the banality of the encounter. Trying to RP it as my cleric I asked why the party didn't stay back until we could find a way to get the hostage free. They responded by pointing out that she was just raised by Lizuca and why it was such a big deal. Glorious victory for the good guys.......really.

That's how they saw it. Its nothing new and adding incremental hurdles to death and re-spawning isn't going to fix it. I would even argue its exact opposite would happen. People would just go to more and more OOC lengths to get their PCs back in play because dying gets that much more tedius. Despite the whole diamond = resurrection thing supposedly adding an element of RP into raising the dead  I can count the times I've ever seen it done on one hand as anything else besides "drop a whole bunch of diamonds, cast raise dead, rinse, wash, and repeat." Adding additional in game mechanical hurdles to things wont fix a lapse in Rping behavior. Possibly REWARDING good rping might be a way to help address it, and if that carries the risk of favoritism then I say this as someone that almost never interacts in DM supported events.

There used to be a tool on another server where each player could "use" it on someone and reward them with a small boost in exp for good RPing. The server is already clickish enough that I dont see any harm in giving players this option to use.

P.S. I wound up here because I'm looking for a place to post a request for a prestigue class and I couldnt find one.

[Dread]

Here, respawnoholic: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=4659.0

Fill that out and then send one of the Community Council members like HellsPanda up there a PM.

[Norture]

I'm entirely of the position that if you feel the effects of death are "trivial," then simply roleplay the hardship yourself. If death doesn't have crippling and lasting mechanical consequences - impose them intangibly upon your PC. You can roleplay your PC as being crippled and I rather doubt anyone is going to take opposition to that. To my knowledge, nothing stipulates that anyone is obligated to come back from the dead. If you feel your PC should be dead for more than the five minutes it takes to get back up - stay down.

Players (more or less) have absolute reign over what happens to their PC after being killed (barring DM events, etc). DMs can't even perma PCs without their permission (read: normally). If people view the system as "Oh well, I got killed by [darklord], I'll walk it off in the morning," that's what degrades the experience. The system only permits people to take certain actions. It doesn't mean we have to take them.

Let's face it though. Like every other similar issue people post about, people want consequences/harsher death/permadeath/more DPs for OTHER characters, not their own.

[tzaeru]

I'm entirely of the position that if you feel the effects of death are "trivial," then simply roleplay the hardship yourself. If death doesn't have crippling and lasting mechanical consequences - impose them intangibly upon your PC. You can roleplay your PC as being crippled and I rather doubt anyone is going to take opposition to that. To my knowledge, nothing stipulates that anyone is obligated to come back from the dead. If you feel your PC should be dead for more than the five minutes it takes to get back up - stay down.

Players (more or less) have absolute reign over what happens to their PC after being killed (barring DM events, etc). DMs can't even perma PCs without their permission (read: normally). If people view the system as "Oh well, I got killed by [darklord], I'll walk it off in the morning," that's what degrades the experience. The system only permits people to take certain actions. It doesn't mean we have to take them.

Let's face it though. Like every other similar issue people post about, people want consequences/harsher death/permadeath/more DPs for OTHER characters, not their own.

That's an exaggeration and kind of unfair towards people who really have sincere motivations for wanting harsher consequences.