Raise Dead and how it waters down conftontations

[Amon-Si]

All deaths. Make them Perma. 
Then we will see fear and wailing like never before!

[dutchy]

All deaths. Make them Perma. 
Then we will see fear and wailing like never before!

readjusted it for you

[Dread]

I spawned some monsters outside yesterday in the Outskirts in the hopes that some people would slowly head inside, so that I could run something else in either the Lady's or the Sanctuary; instead, the group of players in question kept coming back outside after getting a healing or a raise from Lizuca. This happened over and over and over again.

I might just remove Lizuca from the Sanctuary every now and then.

[Amon-Si]

All deaths. Make them Perma.  
Then we will see fear and wailing like never before!

readjusted it for you

Challenge accepted.
From now on, apart from Eliza, all my PCs are subject to permadeath upon any death. (Eliza is already committed to die in a particular way)

[Ercvadasz]

I spawned some monsters outside yesterday in the Outskirts in the hopes that some people would slowly head inside, so that I could run something else in either the Lady's or the Sanctuary; instead, the group of players in question kept coming back outside after getting a healing or a raise from Lizuca. This happened over and over and over again.

I might just remove Lizuca from the Sanctuary every now and then.

This has actually happened a few times before.
Something dire and sinister was outside and a few of those things came in, so the morninglordian clergy took shelter in the crypts:D

I as well agree with dutchy on his oppinion.

About Tabithas reaction, well if you allow the AMPC to kill her why interfere? If you interfere then should you not do everything so she does not die certainly?
Moral choices. Don't know about your allignement, but saying something like this if you are a good alligned char(ng my guess) then this is a bit quite contradictory how you acted. Interfere to save her, but tell she can be killed?

[puckwolf]

'Ya got no clue how annoying it is to have an event to execute a player as the Garda, or the Garda manages to take down a dangerous criminal, and suddenly that character is back from the dead.  The Garda rarely get any wins, it seems!

Actually guards have it much easier than their enemies.  Most guard PCs are closured by the decision of the player.  Enemies of the guard, on the other hand, aren't so lucky.  This is because the guards tend to have the count on their side.

Don't feel bad for yourselves my fellow garda, we have it pretty good!  And try not to think of it as winning or losing, we play cooperatively with our enemy PCs.  Everyone should be the winner.

[dutchy]

heh seraphim is right  i intentionaly removed myself from the scene so he could do something.

got curious at times popped out to look but didnt act upon anything.

was nuts really  3 folks died the rest doesnt run no they attack instead    then they ran came back healed got those fallen  the fallen where rezzed then got back into the fight aswell.

was painfull to see.

i was actually thinking this isnt seraphim..cant be he knows better then trying this (cause he did keep trying to spawn something strong enough to make them shit thier pants)

[Dusk]

I spawned some monsters outside yesterday in the Outskirts in the hopes that some people would slowly head inside, so that I could run something else in either the Lady's or the Sanctuary; instead, the group of players in question kept coming back outside after getting a healing or a raise from Lizuca. This happened over and over and over again.

I might just remove Lizuca from the Sanctuary every now and then.

My solution to this would be the creation of two different NPCs. One, the default, which is already created (default Lizuca). She spawns normally and is there unless a DM is holding an event like the one you intended. In a special event situation, default Lizuca would be sent on a vacation to Limbo, and the aforementioned second NPC would be spawned in her place for the duration of the event to prevent this choice -- exploit, I would even call it -- from happening. As for the second NPC in this specific situation, perhaps just have it as a Lizuca clone in which requests to heal a character's wounds are denied on the basis that she must conserve the blessings the Morninglord is able to provide in defensive of the church? Same would go for requests for Lizuca to raise a character.

So essentially, for any problem like this, there would be the existence of two NPCs: One that is default, and one that a DM can replace the default with, when the time calls for it.

[herkles]

I spawned some monsters outside yesterday in the Outskirts in the hopes that some people would slowly head inside, so that I could run something else in either the Lady's or the Sanctuary; instead, the group of players in question kept coming back outside after getting a healing or a raise from Lizuca. This happened over and over and over again.

I might just remove Lizuca from the Sanctuary every now and then.

I honestly think removing Lizucra permently would be a good idea. This could allow the ML people to have a cleirc there doing stuff, or you know use the temple inside the city, you have to go and fight some rats but generally there are not any major wererats in between the place at night. This also provides a buffer of area between the places IMO.

just a thought, I hope you do this.

[Dobian]

About Tabithas reaction, well if you allow the AMPC to kill her why interfere? If you interfere then should you not do everything so she does not die certainly?
Moral choices. Don't know about your allignement, but saying something like this if you are a good alligned char(ng my guess) then this is a bit quite contradictory how you acted. Interfere to save her, but tell she can be killed?

Tabitha is not good, she is CN.  Aside from the people she loves, her actions are based on what is expedient and gets the job done, and damn the consequences.  People who know her know this about her.  She is also very brash and impulsive.  (just ask Inari)  She knew this vampire was a sadist, and if he got the girl alone he wasn't going to simply feed but do something sick.  She knew this because outside just a short time earlier, he had harassed her and Chali, saying some sick things.  And Tabitha drove him off, but he followed them into the Lady's a few moments later.  And in there, he tossed her a vial of Carina's blood.  So he's a real sicko, not a "civilized" vamp.  He also threatened to snap the girl's neck and rip her spine out, so letting him take her away alone wasn't really an option.  So instead of just letting him lead the girl off and hope to track him, she did the impulsive thing and forced the issue right there, calling his bluff.  She wasn't trying to get the girl killed, she was trying to make him fearful for his own fate, even telling him, "why do you want to end yourself over this girl, you seem to enjoy your undeath".  Let him think that she is just as vicious a killer as he is, so maybe he should pack it in.  All to get him off the girl and leave.  And then maybe go hunt him after he left.  My mistake was playing the raise card.  If I hadn't said that, I would have played the scene exactly right for Tabitha.  So no more raise card, that's the point of this thread.

[Ovidiu_Lacusta]

Many years ago on PoTM, death used to mean a short walk through the Near Ethereal, and you could re-enter your body without penalty.

Then you had to get the raise dead spell.  There was gnashing of teeth.

Then more recently, diamonds were added as material component - there was much gnashing of teeth!

It was also made so your corpse could be badly impaired by heavy damage and require ressurection. (gnashing of teeth)

Then it was made so that having Dark Powers lowered your chances of a successful raise dead, and raising in Sinkholes of evil has additional chance of failure.  Failure resulting in Zombied people who then need to be ressurected. AWESOME!

Could death still be made into a more painful affair?

Yes.  The cost of diamonds could be doubled, they could be removed from drops and be gifted on DM quests only, a 48 hour respawn timer could be implemented, a finite number of raise tokens could be given at character creation - all ideas that have come up over the years.

Or. We could roleplay some fear.

Fear of the monsters, fear of death.  Fear.  Problem solved.

[dutchy]

mindset is the key.

we all logon to play a game thats a given and we logon to a server to play the game with others, thus we seek also the social side of the game. (if not you lie cause else you'd play offline games)
that beeing said, the social part at one point might take over as you get to know the chars and rp with them daily you might also get to know the ppl behind them wich in plenty of cases happends, the counter of this is though is that you might be more lenient or that you get into a routine that you would not have been in for lets say first 6 months when all was new and deadly, and when the vetrans where those to look out for and now you know more you know the server, not all vetrans are worth to look out for some are dicks some are scary some rather not socialise with many.
i was talking things over 2 days ago with a vetran and we came to the conclusion that for the two of us potm had changed   yes it has  no longer closure the factions have adapted and so have the players, but we also agreed and saw that we both had seen and experienced so much on the server that the feel that we once had wouldnt return cause of the experience.

we did miss the time of a zhakatan cult led by some idiot named regno (you know damned well why i say idiot) who was terrefying yet a blast to see in action how corpses got stolen from the temple to be eaten by the cannabalistic cult, people truly enjoyed that story it was scary  and people plotted against it but they also did not only go for their own glory it was a 2 way thing.

or for guards for that matter some still mumble noica at times cause those who been around at those times know about the anoying strict never smiling straigth shooting guard who if you messed up came down on you hard, there are still such guards luckely but such chars do set an example or a memory imprint of gosh that was neat.

fifth sect  marle did a good job overall  it created so much rp it isnt understandable why it is no longer around as it should be.

then there was this halfer named lemmy fiddlesticks was a leader of the red vardo he was well not that corrupt but a hunter yet a busnis man who took the money from the guards telling where to find its prey and then quickly hurried to the one hunted to say quickly go away uhhh btw do you need any items?   very clever and dangerous game such a char played and you think meh that isnt so special well the little bugger  had to be closured cause he ended up with max dp's thus maximum dark powers wich means your story has ended , now how much of those do you hear that these days?

our mindset has changed a bit if it for the good or the bad thats for each their own to decide  i don't judge the past always seemed more fun thats why its the past and the future will create more, but if we change our mindsets a little bit more to the dark side we all might have even better stories more horror more fun and the dm's can even  do more with it, so a raise dead is not the end of it but  things like that makes you lazy  meh  can be raised mehhhh il use a potion mehh  who cares my ocr will go down  its a week of avoiding  npc's    thats lazy thinking   *and im not innocent either*

i simply think this should be conciderd

dutchy,

[Kendric98]

ROLEPLAY tokens for reses needed to raise somone would stop all this with the quickness. DMs see rp going on give the respective token to them discreetly and next time they die and get a res they lose a token. Also tokens should be no drop no trade.

[DocWatson]

ROLEPLAY tokens for reses needed to raise somone would stop all this with the quickness. DMs see rp going on give the respective token to them discreetly and next time they die and get a res they lose a token. Also tokens should be no drop no trade.

Good idea but dms can watch everyone all the time, and what about the new guys.

[HellsPanda]

The problem with tokens/diamonds being dm rewards is that we have to few dms, it would just create an atmosphere of favouritism we do not want

[Longevitus]

I need to post this because Dobian is taking a lot of the brunt here on her actions the other night. I was the Vampire in question that the op was about.

Let me start with this in front of everything. I spoke to Dobian after the event and understood why she did what her character did and can not fault her for that. I even helped put her in that mindset with my Ghoul Caven.

I also am aware that starting an event in the Inn is not the best choice and I was looking for a DM but none were on, so I knew that if anything was going to require IG "physical actions" we had to move outside as to not "ignore" the npcs. Due to circumstances I was not able to make it outside but that is ok too.

Let it be made clear that I did not feel, "cheated" by what happened, because all of the RP that happened there was done beautifully. I was merely shocked by a few things, which may have been missed by those watching.

At the time of the incident in question I was surrounded, the door was closed and I had about an inch of each finger sinking into the player's neck, not to kill them but to show my character meant business. The first thing I was shocked at was that during this time when this girl is being gripped violently and slowly dying and bleeding to death was that the other characters were more focused on my character than trying to help the girl. I believe that the girl, who did a wonderful job btw, even fell limp and possibly dead once during this and no one took notice, I think I had to shake her awake/alive to bring back the fact that she was in peril.

During my scenes I always try to shift the focus of the rp away from my character and onto the characters involved, letting them make the choices, deciding the options and what the outcomes of the emotes are and what follows afterwards. I do this because I believe that by creating the scene but then allowing the other players evolve it in the direction of their choosing it opens up many paths for each scene to take. A simple hostage situation could turn into a vengeful monster hunt, a barring of doors to prevent future occurences, or perhaps an easy way to get rid of a character that those involved did not like and let the Vampire take them away and eat them. I leave it up to them as best as I can while inserting diverging paths from what they are deciding on to give them more options (whether they are good or bad for me) that the characters could take if they so choosed to.

I will not speak on the seconde thing that shocked me because Dobian and I spoke of it at length and discussed it thoroughly and I came to understand why Tabitha did what she did and have no hard feelings towards her for making those choices. I was merely shocked that my assumptions were wrong and that I had banked on something I thought I could at least use to get outside. So in the end this whole thing was actually my fault and I apologize for any ill will it has caused.

I was wrong to assume, because you know what that does....it gets you slapped in the face by Radu's big F***ing mace when you have to spontaneously cast, "Darkness" to escape a situational-noose you wrapped around your neck.

I disagree partially with increasing the penalties for Raising the Dead, for multple reasons. If this were a, "Hardcore" Diablo server Cohiin would never have made it past her first mink hunting trip (them otters are mean in a pack) where she was killed by lag and persistant otters but then was able to be raised. Being raised is a god-send to new players, who for various reasons may have a hard time living to see lvl 3, whether it be lag, poor judgement, or readjusting to this server from a different one and we should not punish them for it. Well, unless they "really-really" deserver it.

Also in a sidenote though, if raise dead / the fear of no death becomes to much of a, "Get out of Jail Free" problem, know this....

I have no problem roleplaying with bound and chained corpses that I must marionette when it comes time for them to react to me . Either that or I am just in serious need of professional help that the first psycologist couldn't offer me.   


TL;DR = Dobian, in my belief played the scene right. I played it wrong by assuming too much and will adjust future scenes.

I am not the best RPer but I shall do my best to uphold the guidelines and help increase the other player's experiences here while I still can.

Longevitus

[Dobian]

There's no ill will at all.  I get a big kick out of your monsters, they create a lot of fun.  I thought you had a valid point about the misuse of the raise card, so I started the thread.  We can all learn things from scenes like this so we can improve them the next time.  I learned a few things from this one.

[Kendric98]

ROLEPLAY tokens for reses needed to raise somone would stop all this with the quickness. DMs see rp going on give the respective token to them discreetly and next time they die and get a res they lose a token. Also tokens should be no drop no trade.

Good idea but dms can watch everyone all the time, and what about the new guys.

They watch us alot more than people know. Also i dont think there will be favoritism, is someone is in rp and it seems relevant or in keeping with the setting just give them a token. It seemed to work ok on other servers. As for the new guys it will encourage them to rp rather than run out dieing and being dumb. Or if they are under level 4 raises could be automatic. Needing tokens after a certain level could make it alot riskier to run out and get killed.

[Winter83]

Vamps don't kill with feeding unless they intend to. Killing a victim through feeding is a way to create a vamp spawn, which they usually avoid, as every and each new underling raises the risk of rebellion or accidentally / intentionally giving out the master's secrets.

[Mayvind]

mindset is the key.

we all logon to play a game thats a given and we logon to a server to play the game with others, thus we seek also the social side of the game. (if not you lie cause else you'd play offline games)
that beeing said, the social part at one point might take over as you get to know the chars and rp with them daily you might also get to know the ppl behind them wich in plenty of cases happends, the counter of this is though is that you might be more lenient or that you get into a routine that you would not have been in for lets say first 6 months when all was new and deadly, and when the vetrans where those to look out for and now you know more you know the server, not all vetrans are worth to look out for some are dicks some are scary some rather not socialise with many.
i was talking things over 2 days ago with a vetran and we came to the conclusion that for the two of us potm had changed   yes it has  no longer closure the factions have adapted and so have the players, but we also agreed and saw that we both had seen and experienced so much on the server that the feel that we once had wouldnt return cause of the experience.

we did miss the time of a zhakatan cult led by some idiot named regno (you know damned well why i say idiot) who was terrefying yet a blast to see in action how corpses got stolen from the temple to be eaten by the cannabalistic cult, people truly enjoyed that story it was scary  and people plotted against it but they also did not only go for their own glory it was a 2 way thing.

or for guards for that matter some still mumble noica at times cause those who been around at those times know about the anoying strict never smiling straigth shooting guard who if you messed up came down on you hard, there are still such guards luckely but such chars do set an example or a memory imprint of gosh that was neat.

fifth sect  marle did a good job overall  it created so much rp it isnt understandable why it is no longer around as it should be.

then there was this halfer named lemmy fiddlesticks was a leader of the red vardo he was well not that corrupt but a hunter yet a busnis man who took the money from the guards telling where to find its prey and then quickly hurried to the one hunted to say quickly go away uhhh btw do you need any items?   very clever and dangerous game such a char played and you think meh that isnt so special well the little bugger  had to be closured cause he ended up with max dp's thus maximum dark powers wich means your story has ended , now how much of those do you hear that these days?

our mindset has changed a bit if it for the good or the bad thats for each their own to decide  i don't judge the past always seemed more fun thats why its the past and the future will create more, but if we change our mindsets a little bit more to the dark side we all might have even better stories more horror more fun and the dm's can even  do more with it, so a raise dead is not the end of it but  things like that makes you lazy  meh  can be raised mehhhh il use a potion mehh  who cares my ocr will go down  its a week of avoiding  npc's    thats lazy thinking   *and im not innocent either*

i simply think this should be conciderd

dutchy,

Dutchy you purposely left out Yves and Morag ! I feel hurt ! I though i did a good job back then keeping everyone inside as well as population control ! And here i was cheering on the Orange team twice and got nothing but disapointment !

[Winter83]

About the 'good spooky ol' days' sentiments... If i recall there were different PvP rules back then, as well as faster XP progression. So before we blame the change of people's mindset let's examine the different circumstances also.

I heard it from 'veteran' players, that back then corpse hiding, and PvP without much RP was far more common, thus closure was often forced, and yes the world was more dangerous because of this. [nod]

We have hordes of awesome RP-ers today online on the server, who have a good mindset for horror, and spookyness, or to twist and turn stories and plots. The circumstances are rules however make everything a bit different than it was.

R

[Mayvind]

People Whine less in the good old day, And What with faster XP progession have anything to do with anything ? People assume there alot level 20 back then then they are now? never notice them frankly always been on the top of the food chain. I think the mindset is this RP as you want to RP and have horror/ fun while doing it. But if things don't go yours way whine less .. Or in my case whine as much as you want, but keep it IC and OOC apart. You might hate it OOC what yours character going through and be forced to,. Just gut it up and  take it like a MAN. And not doing role back all the time to get the result you want.

MPC or AMPC don't expect everyone to play it yours way same goes with everyone. Expect Meta, expect fearless hero and beardless dwarf and just RP through it. I seen to many Good RP situation end up in argument that break into OOC argument. Be it rules, pnp, canon, mentapause, burning house, dice rolls, 5 mins RP turn to 1 hour of OOC argument.  Then to make everyone happy DM force a roll back and it never happend and everyone walk away feeling cheated and unhapppy. That worse kind in my book.

Of course everyone cannot get along with each other i have my fair share of haters, but that is part in community. Do it like me, even though iam Greatest RP that ever live, most might not agree with me just *shrug* and move along cannot mind force people to agree with me all the time. Just Roll with it and let them shine once in awhile.

-Do i even make sense sometime ? 

[Strigoi]

I agree with Dutchy (wtf)

I think Tabitha's argument of 'you kill her, we raise her, but we kill you', implying that MPCs can't be raised because it's closure and so comes off the worse from the encounter, is pretty bad form and is borderline metagaming. You may not have meant it that way Dobian, but it's how it may have seemed to the MPC player.

truth,

its the wurst thing you can say to a MPC or AMPC player. "we can kill you, but we are invincible!" is not very respectful to the AMPC player.

[Mayvind]

Ok some might missing the point here so let me point out something.

1. Tabitha or what ever is the one post this thread. Not the AMPC and she/he already agree to improve her RP on next encounter.
2. The AMPC in question was cool about the situation. And felt that it was done beautifully
3. It is IC, the characters involve might be evil aligment that do not care if the Girl in question lives or dies they just want to kill the opponent.

The important part was that both party came out happy about situation. Though they might think for future referance the RP can be improve by add fear of death or  treat it as no return or atleast respect it RP wise. To creat a better horror RP next time. No one is at fault here is that OOC we know we can get ressurection if we die in safe area with friend around, which some time effect us subconciously do things fool hardly like charging superior beign with no fear.

[Winter83]

As I was not part of the "good old days" surely I don't have comparison if people 'whined' more or not. The fact that XP progression is slower, makes one care more for his character, as there are years of rp put into it, just to reach a moderate level.
However I do not see that the current player stock would 'whine' more, but here you'd need to define 'whining'. Back to the argument, mindset is indeed important, when you have tons of ways to cheat death, and get back on your feet kicking things again. Inflates death which can be only countered with RP, since mechanic modification bring a lot more difficulties.

I approve the OP's call that he/she brought up the issue for players to think about "death consequences".