Raise Dead and how it waters down conftontations

[Dobian]

Last night an AMPC player lamented to me after his encounter with us, how the ability to easily raise someone from the dead can take leverage away from MPCs and other hostile characters in confrontations and especially hostage situations.  In our scene, his vampire had a girl by the neck and was threatening to snap it if we didn't let him leave with her.  My character Tabitha's response was, you kill her, I kill you, we raise her.  Which started the ooc discussion.  And you know, I agree.  I think it might be a good idea to put some kind of penalty in place so that the promise of a cheap and easy raise doesn't take power away from villains in these kind of scenarios.  The point of taking a hostage is leverage, and raises remove this advantage.  What kind of penalty?  Maybe a rule that you are not allowed to raise the hostage right away if they are killed, there needs to be a time period of so many days.  This would put both ic and ooc pressure on the confronting character to not be so brash and daring.  But in the future, I know I will not be so quick to play the raise dead card.

[tzaeru]

It's pretty easy; Handle it like it actually works. Souls only return if they want to and further more, may not be always able to return even if they wanted to.

The spell should also be spiritually very taxing to the caster and hold other high dangers. In Ravenloft PnP, Raise Dead actually calls for a DP check and as per standard DnD, the subject loses a full level which can not be regained by other means but re-earning the XP required.

Even my high level paladin always handles death in a manner where it's more likely the fallen does not return, and considers all successful raises a rare blessing rather than something which is automatic. Whether there's an actual XP loss or DP check involved, I tend to RP all my toons with the mindset that there is, since this way death stays something dire and fearful.

No fear of death, no gothic horror, pretty much.

[Jay]

"Do this or die" is a weak ultimatum on the PotM server. It's a bluff that is easily called.

Confrontations doesn't always have to escalate to that. But it can still be escalated with a  little more imagination, eg "Leave me be, or i will find your faithfull followers in the dark you cannot see, and blind them, one after the other."

That threat is a lot harder to call, and even if they do call it? it leaves a lingering feeling that they've made a bad choice.

I agree Death is cheap and flawed in terms of a serious consequence on PotM but this just means you don't use it as the "coin of the realm" in standoffs.

[HellsPanda]

This doesn't need a general rule. What it does need is that players consider how traumatic an experience this is. Or do like I have done several times before, and that is leavema char dead for several days in real life.


If your char looks at death like. A minor hurdle its only yourself and those you play with you ruin the experience for, seeing the reaction of others is worth alot

[Head Trauma]

This seems to be an issue on any NWN sever you go to. If you have stockpile of gold or other resources at hand, death does not really mean much. You can simply whip out a scroll, pay a NPC (or PC) and bam, you’re back in business.

Maybe some percentage chance that the person is brought back with a deformity, or something just is not right with the person when they come back? Like maybe some sort of mental instability, a split personality or walking nightmares? Probably would be a RPed thing at best.

Maybe the person being brought back is not the one that pays for it? The person bringing them back is? After all, you’re tampering with things that perhaps the Dark Powers don’t want you to tamper with. The land does have a “mind” of it’s own after all and those Dark Powers sure like to twist things around and make the most innocent of actions sinister.

[Emomina]

I would leave my character dead for a long time, I have had Reiko dead months and months after being killed by PCs, she would still be dead if not raised by her murderer.

Rivanon was dead for a long time too, and hers was not even a story generated PvP as much as she tried to intervene on another's behalf and lost.

I hate seeing players pop right back up but they are hurting them and that's a them problem.
Mind you I would not be lenient to the character that lords raise dead as a get-out-of-mortal-danger-free-card.  All involved would be dead and need an actual player group to come after them if they suffered defeat with that attitude. It, like most aspects of the game, is all about attitude and mindset about what are we really all trying to foster here in terms of atmosphere and roleplay context. Be fair to the efforts of MPCs for one.

[Aduial]

Perhaps it is time to think for a sort of timer? Like your spirit can t be raised more than once in "X" days?

[Mayvind]

People treat death RP as OOC which a shame really. I was told OOC when my char in situation inside Citadel that i should have let the Garda cut off my arms and poke a sword through my character eyes insted of struggle and fight it because later when they release me my Character can easy have it FIX. Well that kinda how NOOB RP sorry am no NOOB. My char reacted it as something as no way return, to lose arms and eyes was something that my chars will fough till the end because fear of disaable or even death result of blood lost and all complication of having arms cut off and sword through the eyes. That how my chars would reacted to RP fear and reason. But i will not tell how people should RP it. If the person just shrug that raise death is easy there no fear or consenquence, DM should reward person with Evil points and even some roll in DP check and just move along with RP no need to argue cause just ruin RP. I understand AMPC side but then AMPC was created to be part of enchance story driven not personal driven as MPC. I would suggest as just shrug and let it at that.

But if it was one of my old MPC, it is easy solve in this kind of situation. Kill everyone.. corpses cannot raise themselves.  

[Mark Johansen]

Making a rule that a player can't be raised more then x in y days sounds cool, but does this include "respawn"?.

The reason i ask this is that we do not want to make any restriction on such for new players, POTM is hard when starting out - we all know this .

[Aduial]

Perhaps with a proper script characters under a certain level can be excluded from that restriction.

[Dobian]

This is all good stuff.  I just wanted to raise awareness since last night it was something I was not even thinking of until it was brought up.  From now on in my own encounters, I am going to talk more with the AMPC or whomever about how we should handle consequences for each decision.

[APorg]

Yeah, the Dark Powers can be cruel. Raise Deads should not be reliable.

[HellsPanda]

The diamonds and zombies where added to make raise have more impact

[dutchy]

ive read the op.

its not the raise dead that is a problem its the mindset and attitude.

go ahead kill her we will raise her........thats like sure  il go trough some surgery  that has a slim chance of failing      (you can still fail and die)

never should take death ligthly in such situations that the op posted.

the ampc is right   by saying go ahead il raise the victem  creates piss poor rp cause it takes out the mood and tension created.

[Space Cowboy]

I agree with Dutchy (wtf)

I think Tabitha's argument of 'you kill her, we raise her, but we kill you', implying that MPCs can't be raised because it's closure and so comes off the worse from the encounter, is pretty bad form and is borderline metagaming. You may not have meant it that way Dobian, but it's how it may have seemed to the MPC player.

[puckwolf]

its not the raise dead that is a problem its the mindset and attitude.

I....actually agree with Dutchy too, well sort of 

I don't think anything is necessarily wrong with the raise dead system we have.  It's we the players who need to take it and our MPC encounters more seriously.

[DocWatson]

Im with Dutchy and Spacecowboy

having a Character state in game that death is meaningless when you have your handy dandy cleric to raise them for a bit of fang is a bit of a cop out to any situation.

One of my favorite DM's on this server (DM Macabre) has the unique ability to have your character hanging on near death for near the entire quest, if we were to say it doesn't mater if we die we will just respawn and carry on the quest.

The story would never have given that rush of "i went through all this bleeding to death, we completed the quest and came out alive" death isnt ment to be taken so lightly or else were's the fun in the game. Everyone knows a game is better if you run the risk of death so lets just take it a bit more seriously.

[Dobian]

I agree with Dutchy (wtf)

I think Tabitha's argument of 'you kill her, we raise her, but we kill you', implying that MPCs can't be raised because it's closure and so comes off the worse from the encounter, is pretty bad form and is borderline metagaming. You may not have meant it that way Dobian, but it's how it may have seemed to the MPC player.

Well you see in my first post that I already agree that her argument wasn't great, which is why I started the thread in the first place.  To give this particular scene a little more context, though, you have to weigh in that this vampire had already demonstrated that he is a sadistic sociopath, not simply a vampire who is looking for a snack and then moving on, so she had a strong motivation to not let him leave with his hostage.  And she did give him the option to let the girl go and leave unharmed, which he didn't take.  And the pursuant physical altercation itself was in dice rolls, and was about getting him separated from the girl.  I know MPCs die permanently, and I know my character can kill any AMPC, so in confrontations I keep it to dice rolls or give lots of warning that she is going to attack, so get ready to throw darkness/cast invis/whatever.  But going forward I'm going to play hostage scenes where raise dead is not part of the equation, to keep things intense.

[DocWatson]

and I know my character can kill any AMPC

Sounds like a challenge
AMPC's Rise up!!

[Dobian]

and I know my character can kill any AMPC

Sounds like a challenge
AMPC's Rise up!!

lol...I wasn't trying to sound arrogant    just ummm...saying that I try to be nice to AMPCs I run into.

[Dhark]

The fault was not entirely yours as the AMPC gave you a no win situation, what ever you did she would have died (vampires kill people by drinking their blood right?)

Maybe the AMPC should have given you, Ravenloft gold.....a moral dilemma ...eg attack me and she dies, or you may take the girl now & I will drink from her at my leasure another night.    Do you sacrifice the girls life for the greater good? or do you protect the sacred life & allow the evil to continue, with hopes of gaining more knowledge about said evil.

 

[Paragonville]

'Ya got no clue how annoying it is to have an event to execute a player as the Garda, or the Garda manages to take down a dangerous criminal, and suddenly that character is back from the dead.  The Garda rarely get any wins, it seems!

[Dobian]

The fault was not entirely yours as the AMPC gave you a no win situation, what ever you did she would have died (vampires kill people by drinking their blood right?)

Maybe the AMPC should have given you, Ravenloft gold.....a moral dilemma ...eg attack me and she dies, or you may take the girl now & I will drink from her at my leasure another night.    Do you sacrifice the girls life for the greater good? or do you protect the sacred life & allow the evil to continue, with hopes of gaining more knowledge about said evil.

 

Sure, that's a good way to play it.  The AMPC player is great at playing these monsters, btw, his other one tortured Tabitha once.  This is just a learning curve for playing these kind of standoffs better.

[DocWatson]

'Ya got no clue how annoying it is to have an event to execute a player as the Garda, or the Garda manages to take down a dangerous criminal, and suddenly that character is back from the dead.  The Garda rarely get any wins, it seems!

This is why we have the vault of the dead or charnel house it just makes it harder for them to come back

[dutchy]

was simply suprised at the post i should mention that, especially from a player like dobian who is far from new by now.

but you live and learn  am actually glad you posted it cause for other ppl it gives a reminder and such aswell.

also we should look for flying pigs and someone check with hell.
ppl are agreeing with me....well that was my 1 post that makes sense a year qouta beeing reached    i can now be an incoherent troll for the remainder of 2012.


remember folks the bar is as high as you put it yourself  

(and mine is at arms reach so i can rest my glass of beer on it aswell as an easy accesable tap)