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Author Topic: Time Stop and its effectiveness  (Read 28115 times)

Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2012, 05:16:09 AM »
What HP said, as any class really. Time-stop still has it's -very- interesting uses IC if it went back to its PnP usage.

Mayvind

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2012, 05:24:38 AM »
This is silly, and going in circle, Old time stop got changed to new Time stop then new wave player come in ask to get it change back, Stone Skin got changed to take out the visual effect now people asking to have them back so they can Meta when to attack or use disjunction on the Mage, this all was changed for a reason. Stone Skin was changed to prevent people Meta them on Mage and to Stop all the Mage goes around with ugly visual all the time, Time stop 9 secs sucks hardly useful if you are not hasted Mage. Can only cast 1 spell before spell collapse. This all was discuss before and Dev saw fit to change them. And no Timestop scrolls do not grow on tree no matter popular beleive. With dedication some people will have them. And Mage that focus on Transformation and Necromancy might have a win spell. But that all they have cannot fault mages because half the server have Evasion render most damage spell of mage moot and if you one of those pure fighter build that dont have Evasion then you have no one to blame for that build stop with nerf that class because me sucks, also protection from death in a bottle so common, it is yours fault not swallow it before fighting Mage. And those win spell i mentioned are FORT base so if you dont know how to build a FORT chars then you deserve to be kill in PvP. And yours argument that you not POWERBUILD then don't cry if get stomp all over because yours meesly build FAILED saves. Get Amulet of Death jeez is so common amulet now. Stop asking things  to change because your's character sucks.

I have seen all this before. When someone died becase Death Attack by Assasin then start and nerf thread again about why Paralyze duration too long etc..etc..Search for it you will find them and you will notice all been discuss before. Then it will be about GS, then BIGBY  .. and BANSHEE ...going in circle. Is not about build a solid Character more about bend the enviroment to benefit yourself.

My cursed is i been around too long and seen all same argument over and over again. And yes i agree on disagree of different perspective.

Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2012, 05:33:46 AM »
This is silly, and going in circle, Old time stop got changed to new Time stop then new wave player come in ask to get it change back, Stone Skin got changed to take out the visual effect now people asking to have them back so they can Meta when to attack or use disjunction on the Mage, this all was changed for a reason. Stone Skin was changed to prevent people Meta them on Mage and to Stop all the Mage goes around with ugly visual all the time, Time stop 9 secs sucks hardly useful if you are not hasted Mage. Can only cast 1 spell before spell collapse. This all was discuss before and Dev saw fit to change them. And no Timestop scrolls do not grow on tree no matter popular beleive. With dedication some people will have them. And Mage that focus on Transformation and Necromancy might have a win spell. But that all they have cannot fault mages because half the server have Evasion render most damage spell of mage moot and if you one of those pure fighter build that dont have Evasion then you have no one to blame for that build stop with nerf that class because me sucks, also protection from death in a bottle so common, it is yours fault not swallow it before fighting Mage. And those win spell i mentioned are FORT base so if you dont know how to build a FORT chars then you deserve to be kill in PvP. And yours argument that you not POWERBUILD then don't cry if get stomp all over because yours meesly build FAILED saves. Get Amulet of Death jeez is so common amulet now. Stop asking things  to change because your's character sucks.

I have seen all this before. When someone died becase Death Attack by Assasin then start and nerf thread again about why Paralyze duration too long etc..etc..Search for it you will find them and you will notice all been discuss before. Then it will be about GS, then BIGBY  .. and BANSHEE ...going in circle. Is not about build a solid Character more about bend the enviroment to benefit yourself.

My cursed is i been around too long and seen all same argument over and over again. And yes i agree on disagree of different perspective.

All I can say, about the TS scrolls, is that they're meant to be rare, but people stockpile them for rainy days because they are JUST that useful. Also, STONESKIN CHANGES YOUR SKIN. It's -meant- to be like that. It's like saying you want to wear a helmet, but have no visible helmet model on. The fact is, is that time-stop is -waaaaay- to strong, any competant mage will win a fight, if he pops a timestop. There are more ways than save vs death spells to kill characters, but again, off topic.

Just saying that a competant mage will ruin your day with timestop, you can't save against it, it's a forced disable that works on -everything-. It's also not just about PvP, you ever had several mages cast time-stop, shortly after one another? NOT FUN. Being stuck there, while 3 different time-zones go off fro NPCs, watching AoE spells that damage you SEVERELY -without- save is an incredibly fustrating thing for most people to watch.

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2012, 05:54:05 AM »
Knockdown spam is the same. I think knockdown should be removed because it's extremely frustrating to be knocked down over and over with no chance of escape. Power built characters can get the DC up so high it is impossible for anyone but power built characters to compete!

Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2012, 05:57:46 AM »
Knockdown has a save, it's called the discipline skill.

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2012, 06:07:19 AM »
Just like timestop, alone, won't win you a fight. It's not an instant death spell, and you'd better have spells prepared to deal with the the person after casting it.

HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2012, 08:03:23 AM »
Several of the players here speaking of changing it, including the Original Poster, have chars with access to Time Stop, and who know just how it works. We do not want it removed because its frustrating to fight against  [but it is, yes], but that it is an auto win spell, that should not work as it does in NWN, if you look at its PnP equivilant. In PnP it allows you to only target yourself. Which still makes it a very powerfull level 9 spell. Which is likely to win you any fight your in.

dutchy

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2012, 09:52:04 AM »
i do want it removed.

high lvl mages that have acces to timestop have plenty stuff left in their arsenal to whipe out whole den's of monsters or other players.

yes you can say knockdown is a painfull thing to but the difrance with kd is everyone has it, so those chances are spread around, and it has a save timestop doesnt.

in a low magic realm and a server that has no longer perma or closure  levels will rise no i do not want the perma topic again but as a result of it character grow older i suppose thats the best way of putting it no?

all in all i never really understood why there was a spell like timestop on the server that players could use.
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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2012, 10:51:01 AM »
Its a 9Th level spell and if you get that high enough in any class they become deadly. I think the spell is fine. High level rogues do tons of damage, i would like that removed because back stab at 17Th level is to much, High level barbarian are hard to kill because they have so many hit points, i would like to see their hit points reduced. High level fighter can keep people knocked down and on the ground beatting the tar out of them, i think i would like that removed.....How many class abilities\spells do we have to remove before we become boring enough that people will stop playing here. Its a game and time stop is just fine.


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APorg

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2012, 10:53:33 AM »
Its a 9Th level spell and if you get that high enough in any class they become deadly. I think the spell is fine. High level rogues do tons of damage, i would like that removed because back stab at 17Th level is to much, High level barbarian are hard to kill because they have so many hit points, i would like to see their hit points reduced. High level fighter can keep people knocked down and on the ground beatting the tar out of them, i think i would like that removed.....How many class abilities\spells do we have to remove before we become boring enough that people will stop playing here. Its a game and time stop is just fine.

+1

I think arguing for it to be better balanced vs. PnP rules is reasonable but asking for it to be removed is just the start of a slippery slope, and very negative.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2012, 10:58:46 AM »
I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for it to be removed.

But in its current form it allows you to much freedom considering its duration

Romar Notten

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2012, 11:52:07 AM »
Simply fixing it to the pen and paper version of the spell would be best suited for how it should work compared to how it currently works, most people that do post always take there characters into consideration first and never how something should actually work, the weigh the benefits more on there own behalf. When this happens you see the posts as you have just read, remove this, remove that, fix this, fix that, honestly it's just a cycle of mindless ranting no matter how serious it seems or not and it serves no purpose to this thread and the constant other threads I've seen.

So.. how about the discussion goes back on topic, instead of all the mindless rambling of flamings about time stop and other things. cause I'm really tired of reading pointless and useless comments, but I'm curious about some information on my previous post, how this would effect enemies and possible upcoming content. and what else would be changed if this went into effect, possible time it would take to do such and is it possible to do with this spell hooking thing.

I'm sorry if you had taken any offense to my post, however people need to grow up.  :cry:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 12:39:06 PM by Romar Notten »

Metal_ash

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2012, 01:08:14 PM »
If the duration is changed to be in PnP on Time Stop, then i sure agree that the rest of the rules should be added to it to ( if possible to script ). If not possible to script it to work as in PnP more then the duration then it is better to have it working as it do in NWN, 9 seconds.
Just my opinion.

// cheers!
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:32:52 PM by Metal_ash »

dutchy

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2012, 02:23:47 PM »
i have to add i dont see knockdown as that big of a problem cause i refuse to spam it my rule of thumb is somewhat like 5 attacks and then a KD or disarm called shot etc   
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Dusk

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2012, 02:57:17 PM »
I like the idea of it working more like the pnp version, but if it did would people still use it? Level 9 slots are valuable.

My thoughts summed up, pretty much. Consider part of the SRD quote from the OP:

Quote from: SRD
Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

Wouldn't Greater Sanctuary serve these ends better, being an 8th level spell with the duration of 1 turn / level? I know GS has been changed on this server, but I don't see any specifications in the 'Spell Changes' info thread. Yet, even if casting defensive or summon spells breaks GS, personally I wouldn't bother selecting Time Stop as a 9th level Sorcerer spell, or give much thought as to devoting a slot for Time Stop as a Wizard if I had GS instead. There would certainly still be advantages to Time Stop, but IMO, not enough to justify it as still being a viable and useful spell (relative to other spells of the same level or of similar function).

Having said that, I also see this as a spell that, as it currently stands, is a tad overpowered. 1d4 + 1 rounds of free action while everything else around you is frozen not only has great potential to turn the tide of a battle, but very well end it before the duration expires. Given it can be cast multiple times and all over again once a mage rests, I see Time Stop as a spell that can drastically reduce the difficulty of a great many PvM encounters, if not all of them. A good many PvM encounters have a certain spell or certain set of tactics that can greatly reduce the difficulty, but it is the sheer versatility of Time Stop that elevates it past a circumstantial tactic and more into the realm of a universal Doomsday spell.

That was simply in terms of PvM. I've noticed a lot of focus on the PvP aspects and implications of this spell, and personally, I wouldn't wish this spell changed on the basis of PvP use. Mind you, I haven't had the distinct pleasure of wtfpwned by a mage who cast Time Stop, so I can't speak as to whether or not this is an issue that should be addressed. Rather on personal preference, I don't like mechanical changes being made on the basis of PvP that will affect other aspects of the game besides PvP. I tend to avoid flat-out PvP because I want to avoid a situation, at all costs, where I'm left feeling the story and future RP of my character rests solely on mechanical choices I made with that character's build to make them more 'effective'. To keep from drifting off-topic too much, regardless of what other attitudes and approaches toward PvP are, this is a RP server and PvP should only be an instrument to enhance RP. It's an endless battle perfectly balancing mechanics for PvP, and IMO balanced PvP shouldn't be an important focus of a RP server. As I said before, I haven't been in PvP here with a mage who used Time Stop against me before, so if this is more a matter of abuse than balance, I certainly understand the desire to see a change in the spell.

So, given I seem to have address how Time Stop can be underpowered as its PnP equivalent here and how it can be overpowered as it is now, I'll go ahead and make a suggestion.  :)

Time Stop is limited to X number of casts / Y amount of time. I would suggest Time Stop only be allowed cast once every 12 IG hours. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a level 9 spell being able to completely turn the tide of a battle, but I do think being able to cast such a spell multiple times per rest makes it too powerful. With such a limit, IMO, Time Stop retains its usefulness as a level 9 spell, but its use would become more strategic and careful.

APorg

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2012, 03:09:37 PM »
And those win spell i mentioned are FORT base so if you dont know how to build a FORT chars then you deserve to be kill in PvP. And yours argument that you not POWERBUILD then don't cry if get stomp all over because yours meesly build FAILED saves.

While I'm sympathetic to your argument of the slippery slope, I don't really see how this attitude is in keeping with the server's focus on RP, however.

We're given bonus feats to enhance the RP element of our characters, not to power-build. Sure, you can still power-build if you want to, but then telling people they don't have the right to complain about game balance because they didn't powerbuild is mistaking yourself for the audience of this server rather than an outlier.
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tzaeru

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2012, 03:40:46 PM »
Its a 9Th level spell and if you get that high enough in any class they become deadly. I think the spell is fine. High level rogues do tons of damage, i would like that removed because back stab at 17Th level is to much, High level barbarian are hard to kill because they have so many hit points, i would like to see their hit points reduced. High level fighter can keep people knocked down and on the ground beatting the tar out of them, i think i would like that removed.....How many class abilities\spells do we have to remove before we become boring enough that people will stop playing here. Its a game and time stop is just fine.

It's very different scenario. Personally, I rather look at it like I did to damage shields stacking, or polymorph self giving regenerations and high damage resistances. Those, and many other too powerful spells, have been nerfed in past, and personally I feel Time Stop is one of them.

Time Stop is not a quintessential class feature; It isn't really comparable to HP of barbarians or sneak attacks of rogue. It's a spell amongst other spells, and for what it is, it's extremely powerful both in PvP and PvM; To a degree, where at higher levels, roomfuls of Demonologists are cleared with Time Stop or in PvP, victory basically guaranteed by managing to cast it.

I've never actually been Time Stopped by a wizard/sorcerer, but I have by fighter/rogue. And for myself personally, my highest level character and most played character is level 19 wizard who has made extensive use out of Time Stop and through that, I've came to notice how absurdly powerful the spell is.

I like the idea of it working more like the pnp version, but if it did would people still use it? Level 9 slots are valuable.

My thoughts summed up, pretty much. Consider part of the SRD quote from the OP:

Quote from: SRD
Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.
That was simply in terms of PvM. I've noticed a lot of focus on the PvP aspects and implications of this spell, and personally, I wouldn't wish this spell changed on the basis of PvP use. Mind you, I haven't had the distinct pleasure of wtfpwned by a mage who cast Time Stop, so I can't speak as to whether or not this is an issue that should be addressed. Rather on personal preference, I don't like mechanical changes being made on the basis of PvP that will affect other aspects of the game besides PvP. I tend to avoid flat-out PvP because I want to avoid a situation, at all costs, where I'm left feeling the story and future RP of my character rests solely on mechanical choices I made with that character's build to make them more 'effective'. To keep from drifting off-topic too much, regardless of what other attitudes and approaches toward PvP are, this is a RP server and PvP should only be an instrument to enhance RP. It's an endless battle perfectly balancing mechanics for PvP, and IMO balanced PvP shouldn't be an important focus of a RP server. As I said before, I haven't been in PvP here with a mage who used Time Stop against me before, so if this is more a matter of abuse than balance, I certainly understand the desire to see a change in the spell.

So, given I seem to have address how Time Stop can be underpowered as its PnP equivalent here and how it can be overpowered as it is now, I'll go ahead and make a suggestion.  :)

How I was thinking of it, is to allow AoE spells with duration and summoning spells which still keeps it as very powerful spell. You can still drop Evard's at enemy's feet (but they wouldn't take effect until Time Stop ends, giving a chance to run away for both AI and players, instead of dying during the Time Stop) or buff yourself up and pull forth a summon. Simply what you can not do, is target others' or harm others as long as the spell lasts. It allows the spell to stay desirable and quite powerful, but just less so than now.

Knockdown spam is the same. I think knockdown should be removed because it's extremely frustrating to be knocked down over and over with no chance of escape. Power built characters can get the DC up so high it is impossible for anyone but power built characters to compete!

I don't think it's necessary to ridicule suggestions others may feel are towards overall good.. ;)

Avatar6666

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2012, 03:57:50 PM »
The classes were blanaced in the first place, why mess with them is my point.


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HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2012, 03:59:32 PM »
Because they weren't balanced. Hell they aren't even balanced within alignment, which is most easily spotted on Conjurors and the various summon, or the Domains. NWN favours Good in power

Avatar6666

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2012, 04:22:12 PM »
Want to take down a powerfull mage, use a monk. Its a proven fact that the same level monk as the mage can ruin the mage's day.


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HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2012, 04:26:55 PM »
fine monks are excellent slayers of mages, but even they have no protection from Time Stop, and get murdered if that spell goes off.

Avatar6666

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2012, 04:29:24 PM »
I have lived thru timestops just fine as chang, and he has fought very tough mages before. if i can get to the mage he wont live long.


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Mayvind

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2012, 05:14:54 PM »
I have lived thru timestops just fine as chang, and he has fought very tough mages before. if i can get to the mage he wont live long.


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« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 05:16:48 PM by Mayvind »

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2012, 05:16:52 PM »
My Wizard has perhaps cast Time Stop five times in the last two months, those being matters entailing lethal consequences for failure.

If something is in your perception "broken," then exercise your will and do not abuse it. Nothing -makes- a spellcaster utilise this magic.
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tzaeru

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2012, 05:23:10 PM »
My Wizard has perhaps cast Time Stop five times in the last two months, those being matters entailing lethal consequences for failure.

If something is in your perception "broken," then exercise your will and do not abuse it. Nothing -makes- a spellcaster utilise this magic.

I'm not talking of myself specifically. In the situations where my wizard has utilized Time Stop, it wasn't the only way to go ahead with things; But by far, the surest, easiest, and most fail-safe.

It's more about the general use of the said spell and it's power in many situations. Besides, several spells and such which have been perceived as "broken" have been nerfed in past. Including such fun things as Greater Isaacs, Greater Magic Weapon, damage shields stacking, empowered Black Tentacles of Evards.. :)