Author Topic: Time Stop and its effectiveness  (Read 28111 times)

tzaeru

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Time Stop and its effectiveness
« on: June 09, 2012, 06:10:08 AM »
Heya again,

On our server, Time Stop is 1d4+1 rounds compared to standard 9 seconds of NWN. While this change is according to PnP, PnP has additional very heavy limitations to what can be done during Time Stop.

As it stands, Time Stop freezes everyone else and allows you to do whatever you want for that 1d4 + 1 rounds. In high level PvM, this means you can drop Evard's at feet of every Demonologist and watch them die before the Time Stop even ends. In high level PvP, this basically means, that battles are ended with who can first cast Time Stop, adding remarkable power to those with UMD and time to loot enough scrolls, or those who are high level wizards/sorcerers.. As it stands, Time Stop is pretty much, the universal automatic "I win" -spell, with no saves or limitations whatsoever.

However, granted it seems like a logical change considering AI, since often with 9 seconds duration, the AI manages to mostly stand still and idle until it's Time Stop ends.

Anyhow, here's how Time Stop is laid out in PnP:

Quote from: SRD
Duration: 1d4+1 rounds (apparent time); see text

This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop.

Compared to PoTM, during PnP Time Stop, you can not target others, can not use AoE spells that have a duration less than Time Stop, summons do not start to attack others while it lasts, and in no manner can you harm anyone in the area.

The 1d4+1 rounds, on the other hand, on PoTM is well enough to pretty much kill any character.

So my suggestion goes as follows: Either change Time Stop's duration for PCs back to the original 9 seconds, or by spellhooking, disable all spells that target a creature or are instant AoE spells, make summoning spells come only in effect after Time Stop ends, and disable attacking others during the Time Stop.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:03:08 AM by tzaeru »

Aduial

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 12:17:33 PM »
It sounds very logical, i agree with Tzaeru.

herkles

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 01:45:47 PM »
why not just pull the spell from the server or at least pull the scrolls from the server? but largely I agree with Tzearu here.


Seniies

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 07:36:41 PM »
it is very true, i agree

Norture

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 07:46:24 PM »
People in this thread: Everyone who has pvped a level 17+ wizard and is upset.


Oh, while we're at it, can we ditch knockdown because it puts my class at a disadvantage and I totally hate being stunlocked?

Seniies

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 07:49:50 PM »
i have used timestop agianst people.

Ask panda
he's one i used it on.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 07:52:06 PM by Seniies »

Badelaire

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 07:53:17 PM »
I thought Senies couldn't read? Wakka wakka. I'm sure there's something related to the skill dumping thread that popped up there regarding the use of these scrolls, of which I have never found one IG nor needed one to execute someone who was asking for it.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 07:54:59 PM by Badelaire »

Seniies

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 07:54:42 PM »
Yup scrolls must be wrote common 

But i use the skill to read the scrolls or arcane sigil's on the scrolls
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 08:03:42 PM by Seniies »

Seniies

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 08:11:12 PM »
But back on topic tzaeru does make a valid point, the problem is you can't base everything on pvp or assume its due to pvp, but to remain on topic.

Norture

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 08:29:53 PM »
Why else would anyone be complaining about timestop but in relation to pvp? Sure you could use it to take out a boss monster in an area, but I can already do that without timestop. And I can do it more effectively than a pure wizard because I can more effectively sneak past the spawn.

Romar Notten

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 08:35:02 PM »
Would this change affect enemies? I know in Perfidus they cast time stop and single targeted spells. Unsure if this would be scripting changes etc.. however I also wonder if could affect upcoming content by the developers. Either way I would have to agree to the changes, they seem to fit and I personally prefer how the spells work in pnp dnd.

Mayvind

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2012, 09:00:11 PM »
I don't have mage that is alive to cast time stop anymore so what do i care, and yes this situation came after PvP in Citadel. But tell me what Mage have in his defence when he reach level 17 + and sorcerer 18 + ?  Is the spell that common that it need changed ? Do we need that change or we need Nedragaad more ? Is Paladin Holy sword avenger thinggy too uber ? that need to be nerf since Paladin have to much advantage holiness, Mage need to be nerf since  can time stop at level 17, 18 up, Druid need to be nerf because can shapeshift without getting dispel, Fighter/rogue class need to be nerf because skill dumping, heck i care so much on what people is doing with theirs class or how they play or level it let nerf that too, pure class only and 1 player 1 character only. and every skill or feat choosen need to RP and apply it through CC and application only to DM if level up beyond level 2 to advance next level.

And yes i be sarcastic. Not my problem though i care when people touch MAGE nerfing another thread. My favorite class which i no longer play.  Strange enough Skill dump and Time Stop scroll some how become nerf Mage spell.  Which effect MAGE dirrectly.

 I would instead suggest UMD cannot read any scrolls at all only to immitate using cross class/aligment weapons. armor. items but cannot use scrolls. And let Mage use scroll normally. Also because we get lots of feat from leveling up Free feat like knockdown should be remove and let player pick them as choice when level up.

Seniies

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2012, 09:12:19 PM »
Let me try this agian tzaeru is making the following point

Time stop is normal nwn is 9 secs only
On POTM it lasts 1d4+1 rounds
It is assumed it lasts this long due to being changed to be more in line with book rules
But book rules have alot more limitations for the spell
Not having any of the books limitations but all of its duration
9secs may of been nwn's way of balancing the spell with their system due to all spells and even mele working during it.

He suggests bringing it more in line with book rules because as it is now it is 5x more powerful then that from the book

Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2012, 09:23:09 PM »
I don't have mage that is alive to cast time stop anymore so what do i care, and yes this situation came after PvP in Citadel. But tell me what Mage have in his defence when he reach level 17 + and sorcerer 18 + ?  Is the spell that common that it need changed ? Do we need that change or we need Nedragaad more ? Is Paladin Holy sword avenger thinggy too uber ? that need to be nerf since Paladin have to much advantage holiness, Mage need to be nerf since  can time stop at level 17, 18 up, Druid need to be nerf because can shapeshift without getting dispel, Fighter/rogue class need to be nerf because skill dumping, heck i care so much on what people is doing with theirs class or how they play or level it let nerf that too, pure class only and 1 player 1 character only. and every skill or feat choosen need to RP and apply it through CC and application only to DM if level up beyond level 2 to advance next level.

And yes i be sarcastic. Not my problem though i care when people touch MAGE nerfing another thread. My favorite class which i no longer play.  Strange enough Skill dump and Time Stop scroll some how become nerf Mage spell.  Which effect MAGE dirrectly.

 I would instead suggest UMD cannot read any scrolls at all only to immitate using cross class/aligment weapons. armor. items but cannot use scrolls. And let Mage use scroll normally. Also because we get lots of feat from leveling up Free feat like knockdown should be remove and let player pick them as choice when level up.

You mean apart from the fact that Mages are still the strongest class on the server by far? Most mages have no need for time-stop at all. It'd be cool to see a real PnP version of time-stop adapted though, simply because the -potential- for it to be abused is there. While I said there is no real need for Time-Stop, it is very much a "oh look, popped out of nowhere with a timestop, I win" spell.

Also, for Norture, I would agree with KD, but you can get disc gear, and get disc ranks to counter it, you can't do -anything- about time-stop, especially if someone breaks out a time-stop scroll.

Dread

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2012, 10:17:39 PM »
My spidey sense is tingling. Feel free to discuss the plausibility of the proposals offered in the OP and state your opinion, but I'd rather not have this degenerate into the forum equivalent of monkeys throwing feces at each other, like most of the other "balance" threads generally turn out.

Badelaire

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2012, 10:48:45 PM »
My spidey sense is tingling. Feel free to discuss the plausibility of the proposals offered in the OP and state your opinion, but I'd rather not have this degenerate into the forum equivalent of monkeys throwing feces at each other, like most of the other "balance" threads generally turn out.

Have you ever seen monkeys throwing shit at each other? It's HILARIOUS! When I was a nipper I lived in Germany and my folks would often take me and my brother to a tierpark in Bracht, near where we lived in Bruggen. I tell you, those shit-throwing, masturbating monkeys they had there never ceased to amuse. Now, what were we discussing again? >.>
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 10:50:43 PM by Badelaire »

HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 01:14:04 AM »
This and the other topic that showed up now, are not just because of the Citadel, and they are not because of PvP. These are both posts Tzaeru has been considering posting for ages.

Personally I would love if Time Stop worked like its PnP version, which only allows you to target yourself, since your basically doing things while out of phase with the entire universe.
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Knas

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2012, 03:19:02 AM »
I like the idea of it working more like the pnp version, but if it did would people still use it? Level 9 slots are valuable.

Winter83

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2012, 03:32:31 AM »
There are not so many level 17 and above mages. Think they deserve the power for their dedication. It can be countered though. With a heavy-metal varnished petrificating arrow in their face to disrupt casting or a sneaky team mate who wait for the right time to tickle the mage with his butter knives when Time stop wears out! :lol:

For a scroll you need a tons points invested in UMD no? And those are rather rare also. Afraid a rogue using a scroll? Toss a paralyzing potion at their face. Then KD it endlessly. Problem solved.

But the OP makes a sensible suggestion. Mages have many Win spells aside the time stop. (Flesh to stone for instance, or evard's, or any mind tingling spells).


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Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2012, 04:14:14 AM »
All I can say is, with 1 level in Wizard, you don't need UMD to use Wizard/Sorc scrolls. Also note, most of the time, it's done before anyone has a chance to re-act, like someone popping out of GSanc, and making your rectum tighten so hard it's not funny.

It's also not hard to grab UMD items to use scrolls.

Also note, most people pre-buff for encounters if they're planning on it, good luck paralysing the Rogue who drunk a freedom potion, the same also goes for catching him (potion of haste, or even still a gsanc scroll (NOWHERE near rare enough).
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:33:56 AM by Misted_Horror »

Winter83

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2012, 04:39:36 AM »
All I can say is, with 1 level in Wizard, you don't need UMD to use Wizard/Sorc scrolls. Also note, most of the time, it's done before anyone has a chance to re-act, like someone popping out of GSanc, and making your rectum tighten so hard it's not funny.

It's also not hard to grab UMD items to use scrolls.

Also note, most people pre-buff for encounters if they're planning on it, good luck paralysing the Rogue who drunk a freedom potion, the same also goes for catching him (potion of haste, or even still a gsanc scroll (NOWHERE near rare enough).

I always thought it's against the rules to bash someone without RP before.  :shock: And when I say RP I do not mean the 1-liner emotes of [comes out of sanctuary and casts a time stop] Seriously that is not RP.  :lol:
You have to catch your foe unprepared. This makes the thrill and challenge. When that rogue already have a Freedom of movement on him, you are late. But when you manage to corner one, when he is least expecting it, and his escape spell would be a time stop, now that you can disrupt.

In this, I am more concerned about mages, with no-time-limit permanent stoneskin they wear. Those are nea impossible to catch unprepared. (would be nice to have the stoneskin some visuals, yes?  :P)


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Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2012, 04:52:10 AM »
Yes and no, most rogues won't make the mistake of being caught in a corner, sure, RP has to be beforehand, but theres only so much you can do, before PCs randomly start buffing themselves up and changing items to spot you (happens -ALOT- more than you think). Also, Greater Stoneskin potions drop at a decent rate. I agree though, Stoneskin needs visuals.

It sounds stupid, but it's a case of do it to them before they do it to you. A member of the DM team himself says he doesn't trust players not to abuse their powers, how are the players meant to?

HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2012, 04:56:47 AM »
Because showing that trust will lead to the trust being spread, and allow for a better community.

Misted_Horror

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2012, 05:04:30 AM »
Because showing that trust will lead to the trust being spread, and allow for a better community.

You can only get screwed over so many times, before you only start trusting a small group of people. And, while I hate to say it, that's why cliques are around. I know for a fact that I'm not exclusively playing with a group, but, most of the indepth RP goes to people you know you can trust, because a lot of RP, and build up really makes you want to put a bullet through the screen when 1-2 weeks worth of RP is gone down the drain, because people can see through walls, or see out the back of their heads.

It all comes down to give everyone a chance, or even two, then eventually, you find who you do, and don't want to RP around, as certain characters because you're tired of stuff happening.

Case and point, an MPC known as her last name, when it was never revealed ICly to more than two people and the player did this as a test, and pretty much everyone metagamed it. Put it this way, are you going to trust the same person who has tried to stab you in your sleep twice, again?

HellsPanda

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Re: Time Stop and it's effectiveness
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2012, 05:12:43 AM »
When it comes to metagame, most of those are accidental, and can be fixed with a quick tell.

But we should head back to the point of this thread, which is that Time Stop as it is now, is just to powerfull, since it allows you to use spells that effect others. So if you get off Time Stop you can pretty much as a wizard kill your target at will