Suggestion for limiting skill dumping

[Legion XXI]

   Just upping the DC on things is not the way to go, IMO.

   Say you have a lvl 10 rogue.  He has put points in Open Lock every level.  Now beside him, you have someone who is 9 fighter, but took lvl 10 as a rogue and dumped into open lock.  Assuming they both have the same gear/dex bonus and no armor penalty, they will have the exact same DC to open locks, which means now you just need a lvl 15 person to open the beefed up DC lock.  The only way this could be ok is if you were to give some kind of "everyone with more than X amount of rogue levels gets +Y to open lock and disable trap".  Say, every three levels over 5 you get +2?  Or something like that?  Someone else could do the balancing, I'm just saying simply raising the DC by itself will not help, you have to make the target group able to get to it in a way others can't.

   And in regards to that whole debate, do we really care who opens the damn lock?  I actually play a pure rogue, and he does not get upset when someone who has fighter levels picks the lock.  This is in large part because he has NO IDEA that his entire world is made up of rules, and that each person has "classes" that should limit them.  He just sees Person A standing in front of him, and he is Person B.  They can both open locks, so why should Person B get to open it better because he wears more black armor and fights dual-wield?  It is just a skill, and as far as Valkan is concerned - if he learned it, it is perfectly believable that other people could learn it too.  Everyone focuses too much on "I know OOC'ly that you are X class, and I am Y class, so I should be better at Z skill"  It is really only upsetting when some massive hulk with a greataxe insists on bashing down every door and chest to a pile of rubble "because it is faster", then sprints though every trap even though you tell him you can disarm it.  Then again, these people die off pretty quickly and no self-respecting evil aligned rogue is going to drag his sorry arse out after that display.  Not that every rogue is evil, but mine is and I take a lot of pleasure in seeing traps blow people up that sprint ahead of you.  It's kind of a "that's what you get" moment.

[HellsPanda]

It is more that it devalues the rogue to such a level, that he wont be invited into the expedition at all, rather than who opens what

[Misted_Horror]

Exactly, as it stands at the moment, anything other than Skill Focus: MS/Hide is useless on a rogue. Unless you got for dual-wield domination, or ranged domination with a good party, there's nothing the rogue can do. It's also the fact Legion that 6/10 people, skill-dump and get access to things. If their character -could- do it, why are they cheesing the system and only putting in one rank of it? One -rank- is a god damn amateur, which is where it comes down to the fact that for a low magic world, there is way too many high bonus magical items that help boost things up to unlikely proportions. Think of it this way, in PnP, or any other sort of D&D, can you just 'quick-change' things on/off? Do the misc bonuses stack? No, that's why its balanced and unless someone powerbuilds a certain skill, you can be sure most of their bonuses are relatively low. The thing is, these guys have reasonable DCs, but the magic/consumables available makes it little more than a walk in the park.

Also, Legion, that's what the initial thread was about, people taking one level of rogue, just to dump stats in to all the rogue skills. If someone is learning, and it's not something they typically do, why not cross-class it? It's because it's easier to power-build in to rogue/bard multiclass, and have most of the benefits with little to no real trade-offs.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I honestly think it's fairly moot to argue that skill dumping isn't skewing balance toward multiclass characters, and this in a way that's unintended by the system. I don't blame anyone for doing it however, but I think it makes sense to limit it to an extend. I like the solution of making sure the number of skill points you've put in a skill doesn't exceed what's supposed to be maximum, you're total levels considered. I think that with NWNx, we can also make it retroactive.

That's just my initial thoughts on the matter though, so it's not like it's the official opinion or anything.

[Misted_Horror]

I honestly think it's fairly moot to argue that skill dumping isn't skewing balance toward multiclass characters, and this in a way that's unintended by the system. I don't blame anyone for doing it however, but I think it makes sense to limit it to an extend. I like the solution of making sure the number of skill points you've put in a skill doesn't exceed what's supposed to be maximum, you're total levels considered. I think that with NWNx, we can also make it retroactive.

That's just my initial thoughts on the matter though, so it's not like it's the official opinion or anything.

That would be cool. If it was implemented, and being able to be done Retroactively, are you able to follow level progression, so people don't get the 4 free ranks they'd get at starting?

[HellsPanda]

Would that mean if a fighter10/rogue10 would have a maximum OL of 5+10+3=18?

[tzaeru]

I really like going with maximum rank being the total what the actual classes allow. It doesn't nullify multiclassing in total - you can still do very strong multiclassing, but would be encouraged to invest more to a class than only 3-5 levels of benefit.

You can still have a jack-of-all-trades with high BAB by going 10 fighter/10 rogue, but aren't going to beat a pure 20 rogue in rogue skills; To my ear, it makes a lot more sense IC as well as works for encouraging somewhat more specific role in both PvM and PvP.

Oh, and I'd like to note that my strongest meleer is actually a multiclass with 3 classes. He's quite a lot stronger than my pure barbarian was at that level, and this is to part, due to the possibility of dumping up Tumble and UMD.

Edit: Oh, forgot to add,  when you make a 15 Fighter and 5 rogue you are essentially just trading this:
-2 BAB, -20 hps, - 2 Fortitude Save, in exchange for +3 Reflex Save, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge,+30 Skill Points (23 of which will be allotted to UMD presumably) , 3d6 Sneak Attack damage
Hardly worth it for most Fighters since you will be wearing armor so heavy that UMD scroll wizard fails miserably when you need it to work. Your loss of 2 BAB makes your critical confirm 10% less of the time too.

But you can go 6 fighter, 4 barbarian, 2 rogue, and comparing to pure 12 fighter: Same HP, 1 less AB, +2 fortitude, +3 reflex, same will, 2d6 sneak attacks, +2 dodge AC from Tumble, full UMD and enough Pick Lock, Barbarian Rage, Barbarian Fast Movement, and by that level with those 6 fighter levels, you've had much enough feats for all practical combat purposes.

And I'll totally stick away from 12 cleric, 3 rogue, 3 fighter for now.

[Misted_Horror]

Yeah, the solution Zara put forward is really good it gives them the ability to dabble in this and that, but not to be able to focus heavily.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Would that mean if a fighter10/rogue10 would have a maximum OL of 5+10+3=18?

Yeah, like that.

That would be cool. If it was implemented, and being able to be done Retroactively, are you able to follow level progression, so people don't get the 4 free ranks they'd get at starting?

Hmm, not exactly sure what you mean - but I don't personally see that the ability to start out with 4 in your first class skills as an issue. There might be something I've missed though? Isn't this how it is in DnD?

[Misted_Horror]

Yes, I meant, if someone levelled up as follows;

1. Fighter 4 (Cross-classed, 2)
2. Fighter 1 (Cross-classed, Still 2)
3. Rogue 1 (3)
4. Fighter 1 (Cross-classed, 4)

Their max ranks in Open Lock would be 4, yes? Instead of 6.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Ah, then yeah. But it would still favour what was your first class to level up in, so that 1 Rogue / 2 fighter (hypothetical of course, since we don't permit that) would go as follows:

1. Rogue 4 (4)
2. Fighter 1 (Cross Classed, still 4)
3. Fighter 1 (Cross classed, 5)

... e.g. cap in open lock at 5.

[Mayvind]

That's just my initial thoughts on the matter though, so it's not like it's the official opinion or anything.

Can i get a remake when it become official ?

 

[Misted_Horror]

Ah, then yeah. But it would still favour what was your first class to level up in, so that 1 Rogue / 2 fighter (hypothetical of course, since we don't permit that) would go as follows:

1. Rogue 4 (4)
2. Fighter 1 (Cross Classed, still 4)
3. Fighter 1 (Cross classed, 5)

... e.g. cap in open lock at 5.

That'd be brilliant.

[Avatar6666]

That's just my initial thoughts on the matter though, so it's not like it's the official opinion or anything.

Can i get a remake when it become official ?

 

+1 Same

[Emomina]

I don't really think it will affect much, other than making the order you level up as having zero impact. (I mean, I suppose you can increase a skill by 1, but an increase of 1 is worth nearly nothing, certainly nothing to plan order around)

The real shame is how easy it will be to Knockdown all the characters that took one of the few classes given the ability to resist it. (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger)
Crossclass alone makes Improved Knockdown and Disarm so effective.

[HellsPanda]

As I understand it Emomina, the system being suggested wont limit how many points you can put into a skill each level, but it would change your maximum.

[Dusk]

I have a question. As with the OL example, would the same cross-class consideration be given to a skill that can't be cross-classed, like perform or UMD? So, Fighter10/Rogue10 = 0+10+3 for the cap with such skills. I wouldn't mind that at all, with UMD especially. Honestly, if I had things my way, that +5 UMD palantir would retroactively vanish, and scrolls would have a roll-based check for UMD in place of the current x amount = automatic success, on top of the skill cap. I'd likely have it treated differently between Rogues and Bards as well. Harsh, yes, but I've never liked how NWN treats UMD, so I simply opted not to put points in it with Inari, despite that she'll end with 9 Rogue levels.

Though, overall I don't really have an objection to the cross-class+skill class+3 model. I do like the 'Allow classes to use feats, to make skills a class skill' suggestion, and an alternative to that in my mind would be to tweak the 'Character Background' system in such a way that, regardless of overall character build, the skill cap is ignored with one of the skills associated with the background choice.

[Avatar6666]

If you want to promote full class levels this works, however your penalizing multiclass a bit much for me. you will get alot of request for remakes if this goes through.

[Misted_Horror]

An alternative to that in my mind would be to tweak the 'Character Background' system in such a way that, regardless of overall character build, the skill cap is ignored with one of the skills associated with the background choice.

This is good also.

[HellsPanda]

Well that math was based on the fact one class had OL as a cross class skill, the other as a class skill. the maximum for a fighter rogue would be 0+0+0=0 in a class neither has access to the skill at all, but if its a class that only exists within one of the two classes, then yes its maximum would depending on when you take eac class be.... 13 or 10

[Emomina]

As I understand it Emomina, the system being suggested wont limit how many points you can put into a skill each level, but it would change your maximum.

I understand that, and its why I immediately realized that for example, my 8 Wizard and 4 Fighter character will have a maximum of 8 (or is it 10? 11?) Ranks instead of 15, for Discipline. More or less removing the majority of my incentive for taking fighter at all, well one major reason anyway.

The competitive skills that are opposed rolls like Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot and Discipline (versus opponets BUFFED attack rolls) are the only ones that really change much, skewing all of those mightily to the purview of the ones that have them as class skills on every level. Its something I would have to think about more, I suspect its an unintended side effect of wanting pure Fighters and Rogues be more attractive due to Open Lock and Tumble.

[Lucadia]

It is more that it devalues the rogue to such a level, that he wont be invited into the expedition at all, rather than who opens what

I dont think iv ever denied somebody from my group for what class they was playing. Reguadless if I can get the locks or not. It be IC for me to invite said rogue.
Also IC sense my main has picked up relativeily fast skills in opening locks since its nearly impossible for me not have a rogue in my group since day one.

Maybe I just the lucky one eh?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Classes are supposed to have their weaknesses as they are to have their strengths. In my view, skill dumbing makes multiclassing too effective at getting the strengths of multiple classes and eliminating each their individual weaknesses. It's always hard to objectively assess balance however, but it is worth noting that it would be much closer to DnD rules if we cap it according to level. That's usually a good indicator to me.

Not to mention that it's a trick that not everyone knows about, and thus, it gives people who know their ways around the engine an unfair benefit.

[Emomina]

 Well, I have never considered. Knowing the game and its rules better than the next guy to be an unfair advantage, but being said I like the change proposal a lot.

I see it as this:
Crossclass skills max at 11
Class skills max at 23
Hybrids with the same skill as fallinf between 12 and 22 depending on the levels split.
The only one that truly sucks as is Discipline which is the most annoying thing to have to spend skill ranks on to be good at what a fighter (and partial martial classes like Cleric and Rogue) should be good at anyway. Skill dumping had always been a cheap way to get rid ofNWN's discipline. skill creation failure. Skills should never opppose Feats, and certainly not something they can not keep up with as levels advance, like Attack Bonuses.

[Misted_Horror]

Well, I have never considered. Knowing the game and its rules better than the next guy to be an unfair advantage, but being said I like the change proposal a lot.

I see it as this:
Crossclass skills max at 11
Class skills max at 23
Hybrids with the same skill as fallinf between 12 and 22 depending on the levels split.
The only one that truly sucks as is Discipline which is the most annoying thing to have to spend skill ranks on to be good at what a fighter (and partial martial classes like Cleric and Rogue) should be good at anyway. Skill dumping had always been a cheap way to get rid ofNWN's discipline. skill creation failure. Skills should never opppose Feats, and certainly not something they can not keep up with as levels advance, like Attack Bonuses.

Just for discipline - gloves, and skill focus.