Player-owned Tavern & store

[monsinyana]

PC STORES

I don't really know -how- arelith did it but they had player owned 'stores'

basically it would be something like the display case or weapon rack placeable

you paid rent on it to reserve it (like how you reserve rooms in the Governor's Hotel)
you could then drop in items to sell and select the price mark-up

sales went directly into your bank account


the Red Vardo and Clockwork both work really hard at this and i think those would be the first two deserving of such if something like this were implemented

although i could see one also added to the mist camp as a coveted spot

if you let the rent lapse the store would be available to the next person who paid rent, all inventory currently in there would be destroyed


PC TAVERN
Arelith also allowed players to lease the tavern. the rent was very expensive and usually more then you could usually make so it turned over relatively often

all food and drink sold - the money went to the owner

players also would tend bar and sell food and drink


City of Arabel also had an entire player-run village. it was very successful, everyone loved being a part of it. one dm worked hand in hand assigning tasks to players and helping 'build the place up' based on what players did (and also others attacking it or trying to destroy it politically)
it only ceased as a concept because the DM stopped playing but even years later everyone that knew of it/ was involved still speaks very highly of it.

When i look at the server i think of things like coffee house in port or the abandoned inn near midway as perfect places for such an experiment

it also works as a player magnet to draw people to one place which always help for getting other events organized or to start off from


just some ideas to push Soren and cuddlegutz over into insanity

[Kendric98]

I played over there was interesting but had the feel of vending machines to me.

[Bluebomber4evr]

We don't have player-owned buildings on this server by choice. It tends to foster an atmosphere of elitism and keeps people in small cliques.

[Badelaire]

Players have been employed in the Broken Bell and Prancing Nymph many a time, it just takes a little initiative to pursue that line of enquiry. I would cetainly like to see more life in the Nymph (or just inns in general, there's so many!), had bucket loads of fun there when the after hours gang got together.

[Corsair6500]

Player housing and whatnot -sounds- like a good idea, but in practice you've got a small number of people with houses and businesses and whatnot, and anyone who didn't get it in first.

One thing I think might be a good idea though is a persistent key for inns and such. Like, you can pay the usual rate, but if you're willing to shell out a certain amount - say 50x or 100x the normal price. That'd allow for some of the feel of player housing without the downsides of it.

[Mcskinns]

it could be helpful to provide a place similar to the Farmers Market area in the Port for players to set up their shops and do their trades.   If they had some shelter from dangers of the night, and maybe a local storage NPC to make retrieving storage simple it would go a long way to providing "mini-hubs" around the server.  While the mist camp does have a good merchant and some craft stations available it seems odd to rush out and open a shop in their camp.

[herkles]

Players have been employed in the Broken Bell and Prancing Nymph many a time, it just takes a little initiative to pursue that line of enquiry. I would cetainly like to see more life in the Nymph (or just inns in general, there's so many!), had bucket loads of fun there when the after hours gang got together.

I agree, i have had characters who worked at the Bell in the past and it is fun. and it does help create rp, between regular barovians, garda and other groups that also exist and visit those locals each of which could be fun to play again but I don't think there are that many actual barovians around atm for something like this to happen.

Player housing and whatnot -sounds- like a good idea, but in practice you've got a small number of people with houses and businesses and whatnot, and anyone who didn't get it in first.

One thing I think might be a good idea though is a persistent key for inns and such. Like, you can pay the usual rate, but if you're willing to shell out a certain amount - say 50x or 100x the normal price. That'd allow for some of the feel of player housing without the downsides of it.

Actually that already exists. The governors Hotel and the tenements in port-a-lucine are week long stays that are expensive, particuarly the pent house. And there have been times where one couldn't even get access to the good rooms because they got all gobbled up.

it could be helpful to provide a place similar to the Farmers Market area in the Port for players to set up their shops and do their trades.   If they had some shelter from dangers of the night, and maybe a local storage NPC to make retrieving storage simple it would go a long way to providing "mini-hubs" around the server.  While the mist camp does have a good merchant and some craft stations available it seems odd to rush out and open a shop in their camp.

I think that is the purpose of the grand bazaar but for that to happen, the grand bazaar should be a bit closer to the main road of traffic IMO.  It would also require some merchants and other events to use it more often IMO.

[Seniies]

 

[Mcskinns]

Players have been employed in the Broken Bell and Prancing Nymph many a time, it just takes a little initiative to pursue that line of enquiry. I would cetainly like to see more life in the Nymph (or just inns in general, there's so many!), had bucket loads of fun there when the after hours gang got together.

I agree, i have had characters who worked at the Bell in the past and it is fun. and it does help create rp, between regular barovians, garda and other groups that also exist and visit those locals each of which could be fun to play again but I don't think there are that many actual barovians around atm for something like this to happen.

With the addition of Native only work added to the module, it would create more opportunity for Native characters.  While as it goes your not forced to rp the "jobs" we can take it would be nice to have more native workers around the various establishments that go beyond scripted conversations.  Perhaps it might give more playability to natives for people who don't enjoy being stuck inside at night since if your somewhere where there are only npc's your not going to have much fun

Player housing and whatnot -sounds- like a good idea, but in practice you've got a small number of people with houses and businesses and whatnot, and anyone who didn't get it in first.

One thing I think might be a good idea though is a persistent key for inns and such. Like, you can pay the usual rate, but if you're willing to shell out a certain amount - say 50x or 100x the normal price. That'd allow for some of the feel of player housing without the downsides of it.

Actually that already exists. The governors Hotel and the tenements in port-a-lucine are week long stays that are expensive, particuarly the pent house. And there have been times where one couldn't even get access to the good rooms because they got all gobbled up.

We don't have player-owned buildings on this server by choice. It tends to foster an atmosphere of elitism and keeps people in small cliques.

annnnd, to those who might show up trying to rent a nice room, that hotel provides the feeling that those elite cliques are around unfortunately

it could be helpful to provide a place similar to the Farmers Market area in the Port for players to set up their shops and do their trades.   If they had some shelter from dangers of the night, and maybe a local storage NPC to make retrieving storage simple it would go a long way to providing "mini-hubs" around the server.  While the mist camp does have a good merchant and some craft stations available it seems odd to rush out and open a shop in their camp.

I think that is the purpose of the grand bazaar but for that to happen, the grand bazaar should be a bit closer to the main road of traffic IMO.  It would also require some merchants and other events to use it more often IMO.

Such a place closer to Vallaki would help too, outskirts can be bothersome with the things going on there at times.  

[LawfulJoe]

At one time I prosed as the Vardo Captain to turn the lower half of the Lady's Rest into an After Hours shop. Radu kept out the freaks and it was relatively safe from the horrors of the night. Also kept the outskirts vendor from having to pack up and good all the way to the Vardo services building at night. I wanted to work on terms with the Lady's Rest owner, and what rent would cost to use the basement for a night. That would come out of the Vendors profits, so it would be benficial for several Vendors to chip in and spread out the burden of the cost. You could have a potion vendor, armor, weapons and eccentric items down there, RPing in the slow time and selling to whomever came in. I though it would breathe some life into the inn, and add a service to the night when most everything was closed.

This idea never really got off the ground, since the Vardo already had the services building in the city. but it might be something to think about for others.

[monsinyana]

i wish there was ANY way to funnel players into specific places solely so you run into each other more often

the down side to the expansive world is everyone is so spread out- even when you want to hook up with others sometimes its a 25-45 minute trip just to get together to go do something

i love the different areas of vallaki but as you say- there are so many places, large numbers dont congregate anywhere that often

there was never really an elitist thing going on in arelith that i saw.. even as newcomers when a bunch of us checked out the server migrating from city of arabel - those that wanted a 'vending machine' shop or place with storage got it pretty quick.. once you had a place you could use your widget on the merchant placard  and create a key for your friends.. if the person who rented the place didnt renew in time it would auto destroy all the keys but you could easily include others.


why are elitist cliques bad? those that work hard and spend a lot of time making the places fun for everyone should be rewarded..

ive been playing my character here 7 years and only just got into a group and got into some things just from attrition

and i still have no idea most of what goes on on the server

its a welcoming community that goes out of its way towards new players.. its not like its a new game and there are so many new players flooding in that many get left out

i think allowing something like one board or an area in each hub evolve based on players (in)actions is a good thing


like i think Tigans is a great place to let it go into players hands in vallaki

or a 'vending machine' in the vardo offices since a major complaint i hear from the player base is they cant find a vardo when they need one

that way 'special orders' can still be handled by the individual pcs


i understand the desire to have a consistent vibe.. but some places being allowed to evolve based on player actions is also something i know a great many players 'wish' for

even if its something out of the way like kroftburg.. no matter what players did there it wouldnt really upset the server.. and it might get more people traveling to the father reaches...


just some ideas im throwing out


the downside to arelith (at least when i played) was there were never many dm plots being run or any real dm involvement i witnessed ever..  most of it was left in the players hands and they did a lot to police themselves

[Sewerfish]

Note help wanted sign on gaping wound... Assuming it is still there.

[Winter83]

I would be happy to see a few rentable market stalls on frequent places where people can place their wares. It's like you can rent it for a few days and can keep the items there. The objective is to not have the great many wares packed up each night, and to not have all those merchants use the -ground- to display their weapons. It looks silly, but there's no other way. A market stall covered from the rain, where you have object inventory? I know it has some issues, like how would it prevent players not to remove items from it as they want.... though the merchant would spot that easily.

[Nurlithion]

Layonara, where I used to RP some years ago, had player housing; it was great fun that the more experienced adventurers had a home where they kept supplies for expeditions (they used persistent storage in that PW), and one of them bought a large one and made the bottom floor into a tavern; it was great fun.

I didn't feel out of the clique at any time, people were friendly and my characters were perpetually low-level, so it made sense I wouldn't have a house. It did help the feeling that the estabilished players actually lived in one city or another, since even when they were offline you could pass by their homes and see their names on the door.

They solved the problem with only a few people gobblin up all the houses, by making a LOT of houses, including some outside cities, in hidden places like mountaintops and such, that were ridiculously expensive (this was a low-money, low-magic item world as well); there were always free houses somewhere.

Now, I don't expect this to be applied in Barovia with all the iadul outlanders, but I can see the Port having some ridiculously expensive places for people with nothing else to do with their money.

[Aduial]

I Believe this is actually a good idea, especially the one of the Tavern, doing it properly can add much fun to the server.

[Badelaire]

like i think Tigans is a great place to let it go into players hands in vallaki
a major complaint i hear from the player base is they cant find a vardo when they need one
that way 'special orders' can still be handled by the individual pcs

Tigans IS in player hands due to the organisation who owns it. About the second comment, the thing about the RVT is everyone expects it to be some wholesalers of crap that's looted from the server when that's not even the intention of the faction, just the direction others have taken it. It's not to everyone's taste but I've specifically gone a more fitting route of less overt, more prestigious form of wheeler-dealing in that you go to the RVT in order to get what you are after, which of late has been many people wanting information on their enemies/neighbours for their own persnal amusement/blackmail purposes etc.

"Get what you are after" isn't limited strictly to equipment from dungeons and only needs a small stretch of the imagination for player run plots. Selling loot is merely a sideline to kep the green coming in. The reason why the decision was made to stop taking special orders, the more rare loot, is it makes no business sense to agree to getting something that randomly pops up in dungeons and I prefer having the members of the faction doing things to engage other players in intrigue than spending their increasingly limited playing time grinding for items you only see once a month.

I agree that some sort of stall idea is much more appealing than entire inventories on the ground. Escape From Undeath's stall system is a good mid-way between the vending machine concept and laying inventories on the ground. Static stalls with an inventory and catalogue chest are dotted about in places that make sense, i.e. a market place. A player rents the stall, alters the sign to whatever they want like "Cooked rat burgers" and places their goods in the inventory box. A copy is made in the catalogue box, in the same way a copy of a stored item is put in your inventory (with our storage system you wouldn't even need the two boxes). Players can then peruse the catalogue box and tell the vendor which item they want. Probably a more ideal solution to a straight vending machine concept since it still means having to engage the seller in conversation, which most merchant PC's will tell you makes for some developing RP.

Cliques aren't bad in themselves, I'm sure everyone has players they enjoy Rping with regardless of the character they're playing with. What is bad being a clique to the point you exclude everyone else's efforts and attempts to engage you. Nothing landed at my feet on this server, I went out and sought it through honest or dishonest (ICLY) means and prosered both in enriching RP and IC power. There are a great deal of players trying to do things, just look at all the player factions that are trying to get established, with seemingly little interest. The more proactive a player is in seeking out their characters goals, if they have any, the more likely they will attain that.

[Winter83]

[/quote]

Tigans IS in player hands due to the organisation who owns it. About the second comment, the thing about the RVT is everyone expects it to be some wholesalers of crap that's looted from the server when that's not even the intention of the faction, just the direction others have taken it. It's not to everyone's taste but I've specifically gone a more fitting route of less overt, more prestigious form of wheeler-dealing in that you go to the RVT in order to get what you are after, which of late has been many people wanting information on their enemies/neighbours for their own persnal amusement/blackmail purposes etc.

"Get what you are after" isn't limited strictly to equipment from dungeons and only needs a small stretch of the imagination for player run plots. Selling loot is merely a sideline to kep the green coming in. The reason why the decision was made to stop taking special orders, the more rare loot, is it makes no business sense to agree to getting something that randomly pops up in dungeons and I prefer having the members of the faction doing things to engage other players in intrigue than spending their increasingly limited playing time grinding for items you only see once a month.


[/quote]

Then you would not mind if  the Wayrarers take over some stuff the Vardo had on their service catalogue? 

[Jeebs]

  All right... a few things. The main reason the shops/housing thing worked decently on Arelith is simply because of the sheer number of them available... it was, however, a very elitist server from what I recall. All of the RP was player-driven and had no DM involvement, and there were in fact a fair bit of cliques that only played amongst themselves and did little if anything to incorporate anyone new into their RP. That in itself is most of the reason I left there and came over to PotM... then when I found that this server in fact rewarded you for RP and that generally the player-base here will include others, I never looked back. One thing you have to keep in mind about player-owned housing/shops/businesses... (correct me if I'm wrong) but you can't actually own land in Barovia. I guess you could rent it, if you were native, but then the outlanders would complain that they should have something like that somewhere else and you will get all sorts of headaches for the DMs and dev staff as they try to make everyone happy.

  Although, if you want to move the merchants away from the outskirts, you could always make some of the stalls in the Vallaki marketplace rentable on a day by day basis. First come, first serve. You don't own it, you just pay a fee that gives you a permit to use the stall to display your wares for that day. This way it creates RP, gives the Garda something else to do when they come around to see if you have your permit and puts the PC merchants in a proper location for them to be peddling their wares. I'm not talking about a stall you can put wares into, mind you. Just a stall you can plop your wares around like people do in the Outskirts. You could go one step further and make it illegal to set up shop in the outskirts (I do seem to recall some people IC-ly complaining about merchants there.) It would free up this well-traveled area some. I know I usually load through areas insanely fast and sometimes walking up to the Lady will slow my system to a crawl for a few seconds as it loads all that stuff.

  I agree that at first, the idea of player-owned housing/shops and the like does seem like a good one (I think I even suggested it myself at some point) but in the long run, what we have now works fine. I usually RP as having a permanent room at some inn, even though technically I don't. I'm there often enough, it seems plausible and it's nice that I'm not holding a room hostage from other players for very little actual use. Unless they had persistent storage chests in them, they're only RP tools that we already have at our disposal for the most part and we can store stuff at the store house. Another possible suggestion, however, would be to put a storage in some of the more frequented inns. Then you could store stuff in "your room" so to speak, perhaps make this one so you have to pay when you deposit and pick up the item (or is that how the warehouse one already works? I can't remember exactly but I'm sure it was only one fee) to simulate the expenses of your room.

[Badelaire]

Then you would not mind if  the Wayrarers take over some stuff the Vardo had on their service catalogue?  

Selling rogue A a belt of the wraith after months of trolling through dungeons for one is far less interesting a faction goal than the espionage, blackmail, "aquisition", certain political and economic assassinations and string pulling, larceny, extortion and information brokering it's currently enjoying. Feel free! I personally think when systems start focusing too heavily on player commerce, it detracts from story and character development.

[monsinyana]

the vending machines on arelith didnt require needing an npc there.. the placeable handled everything via dialogue. you like something, you drag it to your inventory. a dialogue pops up telling you the price and if youre willing to pay. yes. no.

no- puts the item back in the vending machine.
yes- gave you the item, subtracted the money. and put it in the store owners bank account
yes- but not having enough money put the item back in the vending machine.


limited stores also actually forces players to work together.

say erynne makes alchemical arrows.
say clyde owns the shop
it get erynne seeking out clyde in game and negotiating a deal so she can sell her arrows in clydes shop

it may also get players seeking out the shop owner to try and negotiate special deals. the owner would just go to the shop, take out the item and do whatever special deal needed.

the other nice thing about the vending machines is you can leave note items advertising upcoming events, special inventory, notices where to seek people out... etc


the vending machines also do a few other things-
-they free up the merchants time so they can be filling 'special orders' or out getting more stuff or roleplaying
- the stuff is not lost via server crash


what if the dms and CC pick 3 mature individuals/groups we all know wont abuse this and let them try it out and THEIR job is to make it interesting and generate RP. if they fail- they loose the privilege.

or have people/ groups send in an app.. being in a faction, having a Prestige class, being an Mpc these are all 'special things'. being a 'recognized' merchant is no different

and having such in barovia i think is logical to limit it to a native

it would only encourage people to make more native characters. isnt that a common complaint on the server? too many outlander characters?

you cant be a guarda unless youre a native. no one bitches about that. thats the rule laid down on the server and its enforced.

[monsinyana]

There are some logical places these can be included:

1 - in the Vallaki marketplace, outside - any native  [this also allows a place for groups like a thieves guild to move merchandise and calibans a place to buy stuff]
2 - vardo traders, inside - faction store. they are the merchant faction i mean someone is really going to bitch about this?
3 - lady's rest - anyone (native, outlander)
4 - never really liked seeing the red vardo in port. perhaps make that a store for any Dementleu native?
5 - mist camp - anyone (native, outlander)


i mean thats all you really need for the whole server. that covers all the main hubs

and then anyone else playing at being a merchant can still do what we do already. and gives added reason for the guarda to abuse players and run us off

you could also add a 6th at something like one of the brewers if you really needed to but i think 5 sufficiently covers the size of the player base we have.

[Badelaire]

The problem there is we're trying to remain true to the setting's values and attitudes which is why PotM has remained a more popular roleplay server over others. No non-human or even outlander would ever be able to own any business for long within Vallaki (referring to the shop idea) without facing increasing hostility from native businesses or getting burned out as has happened in some cases. I'd imagine among the honest tradesmen of the market selling their humble wares, stores fronted by outlanders selling magical goods would get suspicious sideglances too. Dementlieu would be more urbane and open to new businesses regarded as in vogue opening up but most of the other domains represented would be outwardly hostile to interlopers from the outisde. As a sidenote, Arelith's not even close to FR's representation in my opinion, plays out more like a NWN WoW and that's something none of us wish PotM to turn into.

Ravenloft was centered on the plight of a band of outlander players discovering a brave new world. Native characters were a rarity in many cases but with a server you can support them more due to a more persistant environment. The complaint most make isn't the fact there are too many outlanders, rather that some remain too outlandish and don't integrate into the setting. Outlanders by very nature in Ravenloft have little outward impact in places like Barovia on their own. It's the deeds they accomplish that define them be they benign or dastardly.

[monsinyana]

No non-human or even outlander would ever be able to own any business for long within Vallaki (referring to the shop idea) without facing increasing hostility from native businesses or getting burned out as has happened in some cases.

thats why the ones i listed are for natives

i only listed the one in ladys rest for outlanders because i figured someone would bitch


i actually think the guarda should be going over and just confiscating half the merchant stuff thats already put down anyway as most of it is 'suspicious'

also any native stupid enough to put such items in their store is just asking for a 'stakeout' for the guarda to loiter near the stall and catch the store owner when they return- rp opportunity


i also dont like that the guards cant search our inventories like they can on arabel

you want players to live and be in fear of the guarda? regardless of level? give them the ability to take the phat l00t away

keeps power levels low too


the server is actually 'too nice'

the stores if anything would allow more opportunities for conflict


id like to see the outlanders forced to put their stuff on the ground to sell (as they do now)..
the theiving squatters they are- selling their ill-gotten gains like scavangers

the guarda come over and kick it and tell them to rent a stall - then the outlanders whine they arent natives and cant
then the outlander gets beaten for mouthing off and told 'next time be born a barovian!'


so 4 locations-

1 - in the Vallaki marketplace, outside - any native  [this also allows a place for groups like a thieves guild to move merchandise and calibans a place to buy stuff]
2 - vardo traders, inside - faction store.  
3 - convert red vardo in port to a store for any Dementleu native
4 - mist camp - anyone (native, outlander)

[Bluebomber4evr]

Even getting beyond the IC considerations (Strahd owns everything in Barovia) and cliques, there's also the issue of devoting module resources for a personal project, and what to do if that person up and vanishes.

We can debate the advantages and disadvantages until we're out of breath, but keep in mind we didn't create this server in a vacuum. All of us had played on other servers and based our decisions on making the server on our experiences on other servers. That includes our experiences with servers that have player-owned housing. None of us really cared for the OOC atmosphere it creates. And even if you can argue that such cliques might already exist, introducing player-owned housing would only exaggerate the issue.

[Badelaire]

i also dont like that the guards cant search our inventories like they can on arabel

you want players to live and be in fear of the guarda? regardless of level? give them the ability to take the phat l00t away

keeps power levels low too

the server is actually 'too nice'

As a former constant player of CoA (as you recall Monsinyana, I turned the ailing Iron Wings faction into a rather big noise at the time purely on player to player interactions), I found the power the gaurd players got ridiculous and constantly abused. One could come up to you see your entire inventory on a "routine search" then decide to confiscate that nice item you RP'd and quested your butt off for themselves on no pretext other than they wanted it and there was little you could do about it. Not to mention the horrid abuse of the capture wand system where they just use it on you and you appear in a cell without much hope of ever getting out, coupled with the fact the outcomes of trials tended to be largely decided beforehand which meant perma.

The server is moderate and fair. "Nice" keeps players coming back over and over.