Author Topic: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water  (Read 480 times)

Facilis

  • The Underworld
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Stuff.
Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« on: February 17, 2024, 12:07:30 PM »
The following classes would be able to take the above spells (to my knowledge).  Paladin, Cleric, Favored Soul, Healer, and Shaman
Druid is the only class that could only take Conjure Water

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

To cover the spells briefly:
Conjure Water is a LVL 0 spell for Clerics and Druids and Healers, while it is a LVL 1 spell for Paladins:  "This spell generates wholesome, drinkable water, just like clean rain water. Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid, or in an area three times as large—possibly creating a downpour or filling many small receptacles.

Note: Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds."

Bless Water: Cleric / Paladin / Healer LVL 1: "This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that they would be both good for low level clerics and paladins in the early levels wanting to have some rp (selling holy water or offering it to adventurers) and if they don't want to buy holy water from the various sources all around the Core.

Conjure water I believe would mostly help to make water -> bless water -> use said holy water.  Outside of that it could be very helpful in the desert and some other very hot areas of the server. 

In order to prevent clerics running around with 99 holy water or something like that, perhaps a small cap could be put on the conjured items or a unique ID applied to them so that they do not exceed maybe... 15 or 20 vials?  I'm not sure how it'd work but that's what first came to mind in my dream of having holy water on POTM

(Disclaimer:  I do not know if Ravenloft affects the following above spells at all)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 12:11:40 PM by Facilis »

Skelni

  • Society of the Erudite
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1041
  • You can always contact me
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2024, 12:19:55 PM »
I personally never liked the ability to just make water out of nowhere. Ruins survival situations when you're now always satiated.

Blessing holy water is cool, but is quite a lot of power for something so simple against all of the undead you face at the start of the module. That's sort of what bless weapon is for to begin with.
Shelved: Dirge Driftwood - Jezebel Redcherry - Silf Argyros - Ledewif Oberholtz

Closured: Razik Slepnel - Azaulia Curantus - Gavril Dragnea

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6300
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2024, 01:04:23 PM »
I once considered adding the create water cantrip, but decided against it because of water's limited use, low cost and easy access.

Bless Water is more likely to be implemented. Though if it ever is, it will be as per source material and would produce a single vial per casting. It becomes a question of if it's worth it or not to implement the spell, given its faster to buy them. But we could also pull all holy water vials from merchants and make it a PC responsibility to created them (I'd like that).

If we go per weight, 1 pint is roughly 1 pound of water. So depending on the vials weight, that might be around 3 vials. Which makes it more interesting if we pull them from merchants, but I'd have them spoil after a while.

Quote
Bless Water
Transmutation [Good]
Level:    Clr 1, Pal 1
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 minute
Range:    Touch
Target:    Flask of water touched
Duration:    Instantaneous
Saving Throw:    Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:    Yes (object)

This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water.
Material Component
5 pounds of powdered silver (worth 25 gp).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2024, 01:08:16 PM by MAB77 »
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1984
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2024, 10:43:06 PM »
I once considered adding the create water cantrip, but decided against it because of water's limited use, low cost and easy access.

Bless Water is more likely to be implemented. Though if it ever is, it will be as per source material and would produce a single vial per casting. It becomes a question of if it's worth it or not to implement the spell, given its faster to buy them. But we could also pull all holy water vials from merchants and make it a PC responsibility to created them (I'd like that).

If we go per weight, 1 pint is roughly 1 pound of water. So depending on the vials weight, that might be around 3 vials. Which makes it more interesting if we pull them from merchants, but I'd have them spoil after a while.

Quote
Bless Water
Transmutation [Good]
Level:    Clr 1, Pal 1
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 minute
Range:    Touch
Target:    Flask of water touched
Duration:    Instantaneous
Saving Throw:    Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:    Yes (object)

This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water.
Material Component
5 pounds of powdered silver (worth 25 gp).

I like the idea of removing Holy Water from merchants, or keeping them as faction items from supported ecclesiastical factions (AKA, the Church of Ezra, Morninglordians, Church of the Lawgiver) however I'd question the utility of making the water spoil. Why do that?

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6300
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2024, 07:17:58 AM »
To avoid stacking holy waters vials to ridiculous levels. But you would have plenty of time to use them, say 30 days.

To be quite honest, I would apply the same principle to brewed potions and varnishes. Rich characters would not just snatch all the potions someone sells, he'd buy only for its immediate needs, leaving some to other characters. Thought rest soundly, it's not a proposal I'm bringing to the dev table.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 07:21:02 AM by MAB77 »
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1622
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2024, 03:12:05 PM »
To avoid stacking holy waters vials to ridiculous levels. But you would have plenty of time to use them, say 30 days.

To be quite honest, I would apply the same principle to brewed potions and varnishes. Rich characters would not just snatch all the potions someone sells, he'd buy only for its immediate needs, leaving some to other characters. Thought rest soundly, it's not a proposal I'm bringing to the dev table.

I am (still) more interested in seeing a create water cantrip than a bless water (seriously, water is cheap and easily available, but the carry weight is not).

That said, apply the voodan gris gris effect on it: you creat the item casting the spell, the item lose potency when you rest. Not exactly true to pnp, but I do not think it is too absurd.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1984
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2024, 11:30:22 PM »
To avoid stacking holy waters vials to ridiculous levels. But you would have plenty of time to use them, say 30 days.

To be quite honest, I would apply the same principle to brewed potions and varnishes. Rich characters would not just snatch all the potions someone sells, he'd buy only for its immediate needs, leaving some to other characters. Thought rest soundly, it's not a proposal I'm bringing to the dev table.

I'd be fine with brewed potions eventually expiring, but that expiration date would need to be in terms of months, like six months, rather than thirty days, or whatever. A reasonable amount of time for something to go bad, rather than creating a 30-day cycle of feverishly brewing and using as you go. It would create a situation where I wouldn't have the time or energy to brew my own stockpile, and I'd end up going to someone who is an herbalism merchant. It would be *extremely* good for business, but very bad for the consumer who is balancing their playtime in gathering gold and/or herbs to buy potions, so that they can then go do XYZ. That's a death loop.

ProfanityTM

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2024, 12:43:15 PM »
To avoid stacking holy waters vials to ridiculous levels. But you would have plenty of time to use them, say 30 days.

To be quite honest, I would apply the same principle to brewed potions and varnishes. Rich characters would not just snatch all the potions someone sells, he'd buy only for its immediate needs, leaving some to other characters. Thought rest soundly, it's not a proposal I'm bringing to the dev table.

For as much as expiring varnish and potions would help business, imagine how much worse the inventory management becomes, ESPECIALLY for herbalists.

99 varnish takes up a 1x1 slot.
99 varnish materials take up anywhere between 5 2x1 slots (10 slots), to 40 slots if it's something like a 2x2 Pit fiend heart. (Without accounting for resin/vials since you can buy on the spot.)

Herbalism would be even worse, considering some potions take up 2, 3, sometimes 4 ingredients. Now a stack of 99 potions becomes an entire magic bag's worth of ingredients.

Please, I beg you. Don't do this ever.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2024, 12:46:42 PM by ProfanityTM »

blackpage

  • The Underworld
  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • The Bottom is the Top
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2024, 12:54:24 PM »
As a lobbyist on behalf of the herbalism industry, potions should definitely never expire.

(maybe, maybeeeeee unused improperly stored out of season herbs when winter hits, but not bottled brewed drinks)
Vrutha - Stink CEO / Botany Queen Supreme

Arsinia Catulus - Bloodreaver

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6300
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2024, 10:43:25 PM »
The Bless Water spell will be added on our next HAK update, though in our variant holy water made through the spell will expire on rest to prevent abuses and exploits. Holy water will need to be made with the intent to use it the same day.

Create Water will not as that spell would trivialize some in-game content. You will need to keep purchasing those from merchants.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

Trygve

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 29
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2024, 12:05:04 AM »
Very cool! Looking forward to see what shenanigans I can get up to with holy water :)

Stormy

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2024, 12:08:34 AM »
The Bless Water spell will be added on our next HAK update, though in our variant holy water made through the spell will expire on rest to prevent abuses and exploits. Holy water will need to be made with the intent to use it the same day.

Create Water will not as that spell would trivialize some in-game content. You will need to keep purchasing those from merchants.

And to be clear it will be Paladin and Cleric only?

BraveSirRobin

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1984
  • "Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2024, 12:23:10 AM »
As a lobbyist on behalf of the herbalism industry, potions should definitely never expire.

(maybe, maybeeeeee unused improperly stored out of season herbs when winter hits, but not bottled brewed drinks)

See, I'd advocate making the herbs expire. They wilt, they're plants, brewed and hermetically sealed products shouldn't expire.

nerdevar

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • (´・ω・`)
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2024, 12:27:13 AM »
As a lobbyist on behalf of the herbalism industry, potions should definitely never expire.

(maybe, maybeeeeee unused improperly stored out of season herbs when winter hits, but not bottled brewed drinks)

See, I'd advocate making the herbs expire. They wilt, they're plants, brewed and hermetically sealed products shouldn't expire.

i've had the same mccormick oregano jar in my pantry for like three years and it's still not gone bad

tom

  • The Wayfarer Kinship
  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Don't worry I'm a professional.
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2024, 12:46:21 AM »
Expiring potions would mean you wouldn't be able to stack them, expiring herbs would mean you would have to overhaul the herb bagging system for a feature that hurts people who don't have tons of free time to play PotM. I don't think "rich dudes buying up all of X potion" is actually a big enough problem to implement such changes.

On topic though having stuff that is free to create like gris gris expire is a-okay to me

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6300
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2024, 04:48:37 AM »
And to be clear it will be Paladin and Cleric only?

Most base divine casting class will get it, druid is the only one not getting Bless Water in source material.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

Talis

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2024, 06:26:35 AM »
I once considered adding the create water cantrip, but decided against it because of water's limited use, low cost and easy access.

Bless Water is more likely to be implemented. Though if it ever is, it will be as per source material and would produce a single vial per casting. It becomes a question of if it's worth it or not to implement the spell, given its faster to buy them. But we could also pull all holy water vials from merchants and make it a PC responsibility to created them (I'd like that).

If we go per weight, 1 pint is roughly 1 pound of water. So depending on the vials weight, that might be around 3 vials. Which makes it more interesting if we pull them from merchants, but I'd have them spoil after a while.

Quote
Bless Water
Transmutation [Good]
Level:    Clr 1, Pal 1
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 minute
Range:    Touch
Target:    Flask of water touched
Duration:    Instantaneous
Saving Throw:    Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance:    Yes (object)

This transmutation imbues a flask (1 pint) of water with positive energy, turning it into holy water.
Material Component
5 pounds of powdered silver (worth 25 gp).

I love giving classes more of a role so I support this notion. Being uniquely able to produce holy water would give religious characters another rp generator.

EarlofEtheria

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2024, 08:13:11 PM »
I like Bless Water, A+ content.

I am sad to see that Conjure Water will not make any appearance. Being able to STOCKPILE water from Conjure Water I agree however would diminish the worth of water.

However, I don't see how a Conjure Water spell, if designed to quench one target's thirst (not create an item), would cause an issue. If anything it would enrich a character's roleplay, and create moments where characters may feel thankful to a deity through their servant. There is a visceral marvel and awe behind creating water, which establishes ties and dependency unto another, and their deity.

A simple spell such as Conjure Water could be more beneficial to roleplay than the items of Bottled Water or the infinite waterskin, as items remove the necessity to interact with players (which is a large part of why I am happy about Bless Water). Spell casts are far more limited than the amount of water items which can be held.

If anything, I'd like to see Conjure Water added, and bottled water from Muhar removed. Instead, you could sate your thirst in the Resting House, while the locals refuse to let you take water (a safe guarded resource) beyond their recoverable reach (or grant you one waterskin in a single day's cycle). This would help reinforce the setting in Har'Akir, and you could still bring water from elsewhere.

If access to it would be a problem in other aspects of the setting, it could be an exclusive to the Water Domain.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2024, 08:35:07 PM by EarlofEtheria »

MAB77

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 6300
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2024, 09:24:34 PM »
It trivializes content. Say you run out of water in Har'Akir or Markovia with a divine caster in tow that can create water. That will be a concern just for a mere few seconds. The heat system no longer performs as intended. It's a minor enough difference as most will carry enough water, but at least players are still required to plan their water supplies in advance.
Best Regards!
MAB

Dev. Relationist for the Dark Powers.
1 Castle Road, Castle Ravenloft, Village of Barovia.

zDark Shadowz

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 609
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2024, 10:40:42 PM »
It trivializes content. Say you run out of water in Har'Akir~
There's a reason that temple in a dirt village is excessively large and opulent in a land where water is worth its weight in gold...

EarlofEtheria

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Addition of Conjure Water and Bless Water
« Reply #20 on: Today at 02:49:36 AM »
It trivializes content. Say you run out of water in Har'Akir or Markovia with a divine caster in tow that can create water. That will be a concern just for a mere few seconds. The heat system no longer performs as intended. It's a minor enough difference as most will carry enough water, but at least players are still required to plan their water supplies in advance.

The party cleric has 4 cantrip casts without meta magic (specifically Still or Silent spell) or bonus slots from items (which is 16-24 hp less healed from slotting Cure Minor Wounds x4, depending on healing domain), those 0th level slots receive no extra slots from character level or wisdom. They must prepare those slots in advance, rest to change them (such as in the Resting House where most normally pick up water), or be a Favoured Soul.

How much does Bottled Water cost, 1-4 gp, and 0.1 lbs? Will you run out of a waterskin before the party cleric is out of 4 spell slots? How many thirst checks does an average party make before resting?

I understand the argument, it's one I agree with on principle, water should be limited... but... water can be stacked up to x99 for the price of a wagon ride. Does Muhar have the water reserves for that kind of purchase to be made? If we want to require thoughtful preparation, we could have Conjure Water require empty bottles or waterskins. It's already some prepwork to unslot your Cure Minor Wounds for Conjure Water, even more of a deliberate choice if you're gobbling up your 1st level paladin spell slots.

In my belief, it's far more tense of a scenario realize you could lose your Cleric, and all your access to water in the field, than it is to carry 20 waters each traveling first to Muhar with zero danger as you ride into the domain.

Conjure Water allows changes which make water even more scarce, you can limit material supply in the Domain further, put a maximum on the water carried each day in the desert, as right now the only maximum is in gp and lbs and it's well into the hundreds. If all your waterskins weighed 60lbs, I'd be in the other camp, decrying the spell, but water is very light for what you need to bring, and I don't see potions becoming any heavier in the future to have mass/density track.

Edit (just for fun, hopefully math checks out now):
Spoiler: show
The recommended water consumption for 6-8 hours of exertion, for a whole day in the heat of a desert is roughly twice as much, or 1.3 gallons (10.4 carried lbs as per the spell description), dependent on body weight. You need only 1 caster level by PnP scaling to provide that much with a single casting. Obviously you can't drink that much in one go, you'd still have to carry it, or leave most of it behind. That's 2.6 large pop bottles, if you need imagery. Each potion vial is supposed to be 1 ounce of fluid. The amount of Bottled Water items you should have to drink in the desert is about 166.4 bottles (or potion vials) including the weight of glass, if we go by current ingame weight.

As mentioned, 20 bottled waters is usually enough for a romp, and we should subtract the total need of water with what characters are not normally demanded to drink, which is 50% of the need. 37.5% of our potion vial's weight is in glass... we come to 0.3575 lbs per Bottled Water item being appropriate, holding 0.26 lbs of water for 9.53 GP (vials worth 26.666666667 GP/lbs). Bottles only cost 2 gp in 3.5e, meaning the water inside each is valued at 7.53 GP... if it was held inside vials! Vials cost 1 gp, same as ingame Bottled Water, which means the water in Muhar has been free, canonically. This brings us to our totals of 0.3575 lbs and 2 gp each bottle - costing 40 gp and weighing 7.15 lbs per person, each visit, realistically. This is significantly heavier than the 2 lbs players currently bring, taking 20 bottled waters. Our Empty Water Bottles weigh 0.195 lbs each (even if in the 3.5e rules they are weightless). Waterskins cost only 1 gp, weight 2 lbs empty, 4 lbs when full, carrying 0.5 gallons. You'd want to take 2.6 Waterskins, if massive glass bottles aren't your thing, which is 2.6 gp, weighing 10.4 lbs. Bottled water is surprisingly lighter, but will cost you 37.4 more GP.

But what about the spell Conjure Water? Reading over the text of it, it seems that filling multiple containers is 'within' the spell's power but only on the surface of the description. The spell has two options, a single area to "hold" the volume of all of the water such as a cube... or an area three times larger, mentioning creating a downpour or 'possibly' filling many small receptacles. The spell text strongly suggests that you cannot divide up the water into a swan, or many vertical poles narrow enough to allow air to escape, a wider shape is limited to "high amounts of precipitation in a short period of time, which usually falls spatially limited" or a flatter rectangle or radius (see other aoe spells). To catch rainfall you need wide funnel, now you could bring a very large funnel with you... but it's going to be heavy, impractical, and probably weigh more than carrying the same amount of water. If you unceremoniously dumped a bucket of water onto the mouth of an open bottle you're not going to fill said bottle, the air inside needs to be displaced first, pressures within the water current as it meets resistance will also divert more away from the bottle itself. Meaning the cantrip should fill exactly one waterskin or bottle. Each cleric can supply the water needed for 20% of a person due to the limitations of the spell, unless you carried around a water tower.

Therefore if implemented on POTM right now, the spell Conjure Water would produce 1 drinkable Bottled Water. It's a spell of Creation, magically brought into existance and not summoned or called, so this water would last indefinitely... but maybe the dark powers turn it poisonous after a time? Maybe you shouldn't utter prayers needlessly.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:57:58 AM by EarlofEtheria »