Author Topic: reusable trap (Read 6527 times)

Adruc · « **on:** May 10, 2012, 04:47:44 PM »

Hello again, I had this idea since I played the first time NWN campaign and as the people says is about traps, so what I want to suggest is to make traps an effective weapon inside the rogue arsenal by letting them be placed, used and retrieved to be resused.

The motivation are the following:
Traps are heavy (in number, you need some to kill a mid spawn),
occupy a lot of inventory (you need different kind and they don't stacks),
cost a lot (a single trap cost isn't high, but one is never enough),
a single trap is rarely a one hit kill device, most of the time the damage deal is very low (or 0).

So what I want to suggest is make the trap placed on the ground "exhausted" when triggered, after the use you can still retrieve them and replace them again, then repeat the operation over and over.
In this way you can literally build a good ambush scenario (both alone and in party) without spend a fortune everytime or have the inventory filled by traps.

That's it, let's discuss.

Ophie Kitty · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2012, 06:42:29 PM »

I think it comes down to... What happens when a rogue has 40 traps that he/she can use repeatatively?

Ophie Kitty · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2012, 06:47:21 PM »

And thinking about it.. A means to support the idea, It'd be cool if rogues could get say, a percent chance equal to their disable device to 'salvage' a used trap they've set, maybe.. but it should never be 100%

Winter83 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2012, 06:54:31 PM »

If a rogue can carry around 40 traps, and have the time to set them before every encounter then he deserves victory!

Trap tactics would be neat to have, yes. They are overly expensive, difficult to remove, impossible to craft, because we all fear them being abused. I doubt this would happen. As setting a trap breaks the stealth already, not to mention you'd need some cheesing to set several layers.

But setting up ambushes, and luring the foe into a trapped area is a neat way to win a PvP I think.

Reusable traps sounds like a good idea. But I'd be happy already if stronger traps could be crafted from cheaper components, as intended. Would solve trap usage problems.

Nurlithion · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2012, 07:11:27 PM »

What about ditching the existing system entirely and setting up a dialog system for setting traps? Maybe you could salvage components with the "recover trap" function, which would be stored as persistent info, and you could then use to create and set traps on the spot?

Mayvind · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2012, 08:09:51 PM »

What to stop a rogue make several layers of trap to kill monsters and reuse them again in next waves, cost free ? the way i see it traps fine as it is.

Jeebs · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2012, 08:27:15 PM »

Yeah, none of the traps we have in NWN seem like they would be the reusable kind. If it was a bear trap or something of similar design I could understand them being reusable, but as it stands it seems like the primary components of these traps would be used up when they're triggered. I would be okay with the idea that you could salvage the launching mechanism and then if you have spare components to rearm it (like a bottle of acid, for example) you could effectively craft a new one for cheaper than building one from scratch. I've seen this come up a lot in my time here however: traps are too expensive. Seems the majority of the community finds them too expensive and to be honest, I've never seen a single person use them in my time on PotM. Perhaps if their cost was adjusted some you'd see it more often but I suspect that's why they were made expensive in the first place. Maybe they could be made easier to recover? I hardly ever see traps in-game anyhow, so I doubt we'd see a huge influx of them if they were easier to recover from the field. Given that so many people complain they're expensive, it would probably be fair if they could retrieve a trap that didn't get sprung after a battle.

Purist · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2012, 08:38:54 PM »

Problem with traps is that they weight, ike 0.5lb? Can't remember. Make the traps heavy, after all, they are a full kill with lots or some components. Make it heavy, 10lb, 20lb? 40lb? They should be heavier according to it's strength. And make it of course, with variable sizes, weaker ones smaller, stronger ones the size of a halberd in the inventory. Also make them impossible to be put in magic bags, making their weight unchangeable.

Elfric · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2012, 09:12:24 PM »

Quote from: Purist on May 10, 2012, 08:38:54 PM

Also make them impossible to be put in magic bags, making their weight unchangeable.

If thats the case then armor and weapons shouldn't be able to fit in magic bags either.

Purist · « **Reply #9 on:** May 10, 2012, 09:30:29 PM »

We're talking about some thing that is subject of abuse.

ManticoreRO · « **Reply #10 on:** May 11, 2012, 03:17:49 AM »

Why not the other way around? Make them deal huge damage, but with no possibility to be bought from shops, except parts. Make these parts mostly expensive and the final trap reusable. Thus, only one trap can make quite alot of damage and noone will abuse alot of them.

Misted_Horror · « **Reply #11 on:** May 11, 2012, 04:50:57 AM »

You can recover most traps as a rogue that deal -serious- damage. Get a party and find them.

Soren / Zarathustra217 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 11, 2012, 06:58:29 AM »

I find this idea intriguing. Using traps is a nice tactical element that's too rarely used.

My main reservation is though that it's usually a poor idea design-wise to give unlimited uses of anything because alternatively (with limited uses) you make people more depending on crafting and trade, endorsing the interaction involved in that.

But we could perhaps make it so that the traps require "charges" to reload. These charges could be things like alchemical ingredients, that weight much less and are easier to carry around, and you'd just carry a few of the more weighty contraptions that you load the charges into.

ManticoreRO · « **Reply #13 on:** May 11, 2012, 07:08:21 AM »

Hmm... traps with limited charges maybe (nothing is reusable forever) using varnishes for loading the trap.

Winter83 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2012, 07:34:34 AM »

Oh!!! Trap kit which loaded by various items (small inventory space) offers different effects.

Trap kit + caltrops : spike trap
Trap kit + caltrops + negative varnish : negative spike trap
Trap kit + ....

You get the idea

Misted_Horror · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2012, 09:25:57 AM »

Horadric Cube, but for traps?

Mcskinns · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2012, 09:41:33 AM »

I like Soren's direction with this. It wouldn't be difficult to create a Trap Kit with limited charges. When used and then targeting an Essence (or varnish possibly) it generates the trap in your inventory of the sort related to the varnish. Weak/Average/Strong varieties could be dependent on the strength of the varnish targeted. The differing levels of traps could require a higher skill in Set Traps to succeed, or require a roll using your skill to accomplish. As for spike traps, perhaps require an ingot of certain metals to make, bronze for weak, iron for average and steel for stong. Then create a new trap suing silver that does extra damage to neuri *nodnod*

Adruc · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2012, 10:27:03 AM »

I would rather love to use the classic material instead of varnishes, more complex is the trap you want set and more material you need and higher can be the dc of an eventual set trap check to avoid failure (or a trap explosion in face

).

The traps right now for sale or retrieved can be used as blueprint with unlimited uses, let's say you buy an average spike trap, to set them you would need a number of caltrops that matches the usual costruction number (3), so as long you have enough caltrops you can set it.
In this way buy the blueprint at lower level and adventure with parties to retrieve an higher level kind of traps (or trade it) would be still necessary, along with buy or gather the necessary material to make them.

Jeebs · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2012, 11:29:21 AM »

Why not just add another type of crafting to the system where you make the charge for the trap with these materials instead? The resulting item could be 1, 2 or 4 square(s) in size relative to the trap's strength and when combined with the actual trap mechanism, results in the trap in question being made. I suppose the basic trap mechanism could be added to the smithing tree, creating an item with X number of charges for you to make traps out of. The more durable the material used, the more times it can be reused before breaking. That would make more sense to me than using a varnish or caltrops. If you want to make things really interesting, you could require a roll to put the trap together properly... critical failure (rolling a 1) results in the trap going off in your face and inflicting the damage it would otherwise cause to whoever/whatever sets it off after it's armed. Adds a bit of danger to the whole thing, would help restrict abuse of traps and leads to potentially amusing situations as well as RP opportunities such as playing a traps expert.

Jeebs · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2012, 11:31:41 AM »

Quote from: Adruc on May 11, 2012, 10:27:03 AM

I would rather love to use the classic material instead of varnishes, more complex is the trap you want set and more material you need and higher can be the dc of an eventual set trap check to avoid failure (or a trap explosion in face ).

The traps right now for sale or retrieved can be used as blueprint with unlimited uses, let's say you buy an average spike trap, to set them you would need a number of caltrops that matches the usual costruction number (3), so as long you have enough caltrops you can set it.
In this way buy the blueprint at lower level and adventure with parties to retrieve an higher level kind of traps (or trade it) would be still necessary, along with buy or gather the necessary material to make them.

Heh, I somehow missed your post, but we're somewhat thinking along the same lines.

Ophie Kitty · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2012, 12:20:45 PM »

Trap Type	_____	Weak	_____	Average	_____	Strong	_____	Deadly

Acid Blob		Unsure		Unsure		Unsure		Unsure


Acid Splash		1 Diluted Acid		1 Concentrated Acid		1 Diluted Acid, 1 Concentrated Acid		2 Concentrated Acid, 1 Strong Magical


Electrical		2 Lesser Shocking		1 Gold Ingot, 1 Lesser Shocking, 1 Strong Shocking		2 Gold Ingot, 2 Strong Shocking		2 Gold Ingot, 2 Strong Shocking, 2 Strong Magical


Fire		1 Lesser Scorching		1 Lesser Scorching, 1 Strong Scorching		2 Strong Scorching		1 Greater Scorching, 1 Strong Magical


Frost		1 Lesser Chilled		1 Strong Chilled		1 Lesser Chilled, 1 Strong Chilled		1 Greater Chilled, 1 Strong Magical


Holy		1 Holy Water,		1 Holy Water, 1 Lesser Magical		1 Holy Water, 1 Strong Magical		2 Holy Water, 1 Lesser Magical, 1 Strong Magical


Negative		1 Lesser Negative		2 Lesser Negative		1 Lesser Negative, 1 Strong Negative		1 Greater Negative, 1 Strong Magical


Sonic		1 Thunderstone		2 Thunderstone		1 Thunderstone 1 Lesser Magical		1 Thunderstone 1 Strong Magical


Spike		1 Bronze Ingot		1 Iron Ingot		1 Steel Ingot		2 Steel Ingot, 1 Silver Ingot, 1 Strong Magical


Tangle		1 Tanglefoot Bag		2 Tanglefoot Bag		1 Tanglefoot Bag, 1 Lesser Magical		1 Tanglefoot Bag 1 Strong Magical


Gas		Unsure		Unsure		Unsure		Unsure

I threw this together to brainstorm the idea of using items/essences to refresh traps. Examining over this idea and loose suggestion, I don't think it really seems that out of the question.

I took the suggestion below into consideration, I liked it.

Misted_Horror · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2012, 09:13:45 PM »

Why not give gold ingots a use for electrical traps, considering it's a champion conductor.

Soren / Zarathustra217 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 12, 2012, 03:37:56 AM »

Good initiative Rhymo. The one major advantage of using ingredients already in the system is that implementation can be done a lot faster.

As for the trap mechanism itself though, perhaps we need to implement crafting of explosives (something like black powder) so that a small charge of this is used to scatter the damaging material effectively. I've been wanting to implement proper crafting of explosives anyway. A spike trap could them simple be setup by loading the contraption with metal shards (arrowheads/bolt tips?)

Jeebs · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2012, 07:20:05 AM »

Do oozes drop remains like shadows do? If so you could use them in conjunction with acid to make the acid blob traps, effectively thickening the acid into a goo rather than a liquid. As for gas traps... hmm, good question. It's been a long time since I played around with traps, what's their effect again? I might be able to come up with some suggestions for those as well.

Winter83 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 12, 2012, 07:27:13 AM »

Gas traps can work with acid - the vapor of several type of acid can create choking clouds.