Author Topic: Rogues and undeads (Read 21379 times)

Mayvind · « **Reply #50 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:42:39 PM »

Quote from: Misted_Horror on May 03, 2012, 01:46:12 PM

Quote from: Mayvind on May 03, 2012, 12:44:59 PM
My mage should have critical spell damage, and those pesky rogue with evasion SHOULD not evade flaming fire ball blast that just make no sense. Developer should cater to my need and change so that my Mage can hurt those with evasion and do more critical spell damage. Also mage should be able to use spell endlessly like that new rules thinggy with no rest or memorization.

Classic coming from you. DEVELOPERS, MAKE MY DP's MAKE ME IMBA.

You stat my point exactly

Blackthorn51 · « **Reply #51 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »

I have Martial Prof. and have 14 STR / 16 DEX. This way I can finesse the short sword and use str for the spear. Yes, I have less AB with the spear than with a shortsword but... Undead arent known for high AC. Just flank them and try to avoid their attention. Its also useful to have a moderate split between STR/DEX for the high amount of creatures such as undead or rotting animals that do Ability damage... That way if one ability gets drained, I just switch to a weapon that is based on the other. I also took the basic 2 Weapon Fighting/Defense feats. I wont give away all the ins and outs of my build lmfao, but as a low level rogue, I've found the character to be very survivable. The first few levels were rough, but by about level 5 it was Game On for Pwning Undeaders.

Adruc · « **Reply #52 on:** May 03, 2012, 03:07:29 PM »

my problem started when skeletal fighter and knight shown up, with dual blackspur max damage output was 5/hit, then ingroup working mainly from behind with a crossbow, works good, but don't feel that useful for the party in undeads dungeon, for example a renger of my same level with undead as favored enemy and no point on str can alredy do better damage with a better hit rate and most likely open all the necerrary locks to make itself useful.

For survivability, everything can turn in a survivable character if it know the proper place, I alone don't go venturing in a place that is too dangerous, better stay in the outskirt and rp until a group isformed, and ing roup I stay away from the brawl with ranged weapon or dual shortswording from the flank, those are basic rules, no need to bring them up everytime.

Blackthorn51 · « **Reply #53 on:** May 03, 2012, 08:38:37 PM »

Varnishes will go a long way to help as well....

I recommend making friends with an Alchemist, or collecting some coin (from rat hunting or minks or deliveries at low level) to purchase some. Even the lesser Varnishes will add an extra bit of damage to your attacks. They will help close that gap a bit more.

Bluebomber4evr · « **Reply #54 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:52:42 PM »

Quote from: herkles on May 03, 2012, 10:02:09 AM

One thing I never understood is why the Undead are immune to critical hits; as legends about them are like you have to decapitate them, or stab them in the heart and so forth. Which to me sounds like a crit.

Because not all undead are vampires. Where's the heart on a skeleton? Where are the tendons on a spectre or wraith? Mummies have their organs removed before mummification, how are you going to stab them?

Sharauvyn · « **Reply #55 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »

If you can't use undead impaler or what have you as a rogue, and you want to use it, and you want to stay pure rogue, then just take the martial weapon feat.

HellsPanda · « **Reply #56 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:55:30 PM »

Or varnishes!, or actually hope the mage/clerics your with actually support your char

Nurlithion · « **Reply #57 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:04:41 PM »

Or dual-wield those undead-killing maces, they're finesse-able.

Kenkaku · « **Reply #58 on:** May 04, 2012, 03:56:18 PM »

To me, Rogues are much more than just a mechanical class definition. Rogues are the non-magical wizards of a party. They have they're tools, abilities, and, most importantly, INTELLIGENCE. A rogue's strong point is in their MIND, not their feats, AB, Str/Dex score or any other mechanical tidbit.

Naturally, a Rogue isn't gonna do nearly as much against a skeleton or zombie as a fighter or mage of equal power. That's just how it works. Part of being a rogue is knowing yourself, your abilities, your tools, and your ENEMY. Know they're strengths and weaknesses, know what makes them difficult to deal with, know what makes them a pushover and KNOW when to back the **** off. Staying to fight to the end is admirable, but stupid, and rogues are far from being stupid (usually).

Moral of the story: Rogues more than likely lose to undead greater than or equal to their level. Once you realize this, stay away from them. Pick fights that are advantageous to your abilities and you'll be fine.

And remember, you're one of the few that can look at a Fireball and laugh. Use it and abuse it.

dutchy · « **Reply #59 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:50:45 PM »

i dont see the problem, undead on nwn never been able to crit or sneak thats how it is on nwn maybe in pnp its difrant somewhere somehow but this is nwn not pnp

HellsPanda · « **Reply #60 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:55:34 PM »

In DnD undead and constructs are immune to sneak/crit.
In Pathfinder they removed the crit/sneak immunity from most creatures, only incorporeal and oozes have it now.

Since cleaving someones arm off is going to take a zombie out of the fight, as much as a living person

dutchy · « **Reply #61 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:07:09 PM »

but this aint pathfinder right?

Purist · « **Reply #62 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:34:47 PM »

You can't pick one or two or three levels in rogue. In PotM I think you must have at least 5 levels in any given class in order to have it, assuming the character may reach level 20 someday. Then for example I could put 5 levels in rogue and 15 in fighter. Someone correct me.

Also, people are forced to multiclass rogue for social skills, as mentioned. I really wanted that influence e antagonize were made free for all. It is not abusive, since we only get as much skill points as our class and int score allows us. As a paladin Purist has access to it all, but it's painful to choose every time where to put those few precious points.

Blackthorn51 · « **Reply #63 on:** May 04, 2012, 09:27:21 PM »

Partially correct. The rules on Multi-class characters state that you must not have 2 classes more than 10 levels apart. At level 1 and 2 you may not multiclass, but are able to at level 3. So long as your highest class is within 10 levels of your lowest, you should be okay.

And I'm with you Purist in that... Social skills should be available to all classes. Skills like Antagonize, Appraise, Influence ect... But that's just an opinion. It would however drastically reduce the need to multi-class Rogue for skill points, in theory. However people will still multi class for evasion, tumble, open lock and of course the sneak attacks though. But thats nothing new in nwn. Its a flawed adaptation of DnD that was released far before the game was even finished because Bioware and Atari are too %$&#*ing lazy and heaven forbid they actually -finish- a game before its release *cough* nwn2 *cough* lmfao.

Metal_ash · « **Reply #64 on:** May 06, 2012, 08:46:29 PM »

I have a pure level 14 rogue, great fun to play and also darn good for a group to have with them.
If not for damage, he can use scrolls due to his UMD, he can handle and detect traps, he can handle locks...and as he do sneak he can also scout for a party. Just name a few things he actually provide to any party that he tags along with.
Then we have the RP in it self to play a rogue that more or less can be build to act as YOU want him to and not be a "slave" under rules such as for example Clerics are.

All pure no caster classes will have a bit more difficult time here then the caster classes have (even if that have changed a bit since enchantment and varniches and such been added to the server).

Back to the topic... Rogues most often are multi taskers and that is always good for a group to have with them so as a player of a pure rogue i do fail to actually See the problem here.
Some classes are more easy to play and also stronger, but after have played here for well over 4 years now i see all classes work rather darn fine (even though most groups do better with a caster of sort with them).

And when it comes to fight undeads, well there is plenty of ways to do that...also, rogues do not get their sneak attack damage on them, but no one else gets such bonus damage either on them undeads.

Anyways, this is just my opinion and thinking on this topic....cheers!

EberronBruce · « **Reply #65 on:** May 08, 2012, 09:37:20 AM »

A lot of you make really good points. Especially Blackthorn. Play it smart, it doesn't matter what class you are. Its not about charging into every conflict with arms but using caution.
With that said, I been flipping through some of my books. I lost all my 3.0 core Ravenloft books do to a computer problem.

If anyone has soft copies, let me know. I would love to have them back. However, I have several hard copy books including Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, Book of Vile Darkness, and Libris Mortis. I found a thing on a Lightbringer rogue. I will copy it below.

LIGHTBRINGER ROGUE

While most rogues are loners from day one, the lightbringer rogue has decided to throw in with others who share her fundamental disgust and rancor toward undead. The lightbringer rogue has taken extra trouble to research dusty tomes and tombs to learn about undead habits, undead physiology, and most importantly, undead weaknesses. The lightbringer rogue desires to bring all undead to their pernultimate ends.

Penetrating Strike
Creatures immune to sneak attack reduction are a bane to rogues everywhere. Particularly in ancient tombs where undead are common, rogues must rely on their wits to survive. You have a spent significant time studying this problem and have learned ways to strike harm even these resilient opponents.
Level: 3rd.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain trap sense.
Benefit: Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to sneak attack damage, you still gain half of your sneak attack dice as bonus damage. Note that this benefit does not extend to creatures that ignore your sneak. You must flank a creature that is immune to sneak attack damage in order to use this ability.

Now with this said. I don't understand fully the NWN game engine like our devs do. I do not know what is possible and what is not. I don't think it is possible to replace trap sense, I think that would be hard coded, and I don't think the limited use of the such a feat pertaining to flank only would work either because of limitations of the engine.

This is a guess, not sure because the engine, but I think it is possible to script a feat that will do half damage sneak attack to undead that can be hidden. That can allow only pure rogues of level 9 or maybe level 6 can take. I would think the rogue should be of good alignment. They should either belong to an organization like the Morninglords or a similar organization, or have extremely strong ties, to gain the access of knowledge to learn this ability. The person will have to do a lot of rp to figure it out as well. And make some sort of personal ic sacrifice as well. This sacrifice can be the feat. This is to keep every rogue and their mother from selecting this feat. Makes the rogue in question to actually rp and search for it as well.

But this is all up to what the devs and DM teams thing and what is possible with in the game engine. It is their project as well, and they are busy and have produce a good environment.

Bluebomber4evr · « **Reply #66 on:** May 08, 2012, 12:47:09 PM »

Is that a feat or a prestige class?

Nurlithion · « **Reply #67 on:** May 08, 2012, 12:58:06 PM »

Neither, it seems to be an alternate class feature, aka you lose Trap Sense and gain this instead. Which isn't really an even trade, but I could see it being a good option for the special abilities you can choose after 10 rogue levels.

EberronBruce · « **Reply #68 on:** May 08, 2012, 03:21:29 PM »

It is a class ability for a rogue that joins the organization of lightbringers. It comes from the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I think to be able to integrate it into Ravenloft module, I think it would be best as a hidden feat.

Bluebomber4evr · « **Reply #69 on:** May 08, 2012, 03:25:20 PM »

I suppose it might work as some sort of feat, I don't think NWN allows you to create extra class abilities without re-writing the whole class.

(BTW, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is not canon to the Ravenloft campaign setting)

Avatar6666 · « **Reply #70 on:** May 08, 2012, 08:49:56 PM »

Ok so can we make a list of what is canon and what isnt canon so we know what we should possible know as lore and what we shouldnt know. Also it would help on character creation.

docmartinst · « **Reply #71 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:21:35 PM »

Sorry for dredging up an old topic, but I had been thinking about the subject quite a bit recently (Currently playing a Cleric, don't actually play a rogue), and was thinking sneak attack against the undead could be implemented without too much trouble so long as it was implemented as a feat and not as a class ability.

Lesser Penetrating Strike
Pre-Requisites: Sneak Attack +2d6
Benefits: When you would normally be entitled to a sneak attack against an undead, you instead deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Penetrating Strike
Pre-Requisites: Sneak Attack +4d6
Benefits: When you would normally be entitled to a sneak attack against an undead, you instead deal an extra 2d6 damage.

Improved Penetrating Strike
Pre-Requisites: Sneak Attack +6d6
Benefits: When you would normally be entitled to a sneak attack against an undead, you instead deal an extra 3d6 damage.

Greater Penetrating Strike
Pre-Requisites: Sneak Attack +8d6
Benefits: When you would normally be entitled to a sneak attack against an undead, you instead deal an extra 4d6 damage.

Masterful Penetrating Strike
Pre-Requisites: Sneak Attack +10d6
Benefits: When you would normally be entitled to a sneak attack against an undead, you instead deal an extra 5d6 damage.

Mechanically speaking, in order to gain the full benefits of this ability, a Rogue would have to spend five feats. This "Feat Tax" is more than fair in regards to gameplay balance. In terms of coding such a feature, when the engine checks for sneak attack, this extra damage would apply whenever the conditions for a sneak attack were met and the creature type targeted is an undead one.

Fluff-wise, the possibilities are numerous.

A) The Rogue might simply be targeting the "weak point" of the undead creature. This is the weakest fluff option, as some creatures (skeletons in particular) don't seem to have a canonical weak spot.

B) Alternatively, the rogue might have studied undead Necrology, and is aware of the where the key nexuses of negative energy are inside of various undead creatures. Think of them like Eeeeevil Chakras, or like bundles of nerve endings.

C) Another option is that the Rogue has learned to channel small amounts of positive energy into their attacks against the undead, but the concentration required makes it impossible for the technique to work if the undead creature is able to defend itself to the best of it's ability.

EberronBruce · « **Reply #72 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:29:14 PM »

I propose such a feat docmartinst.
However, due to how undead being immune to sneak attack is actually hardcoded. It is highly doubt full those feats will come about.

Instead other alternatives need to be thought of.

Ryltar/ Robert Archer · « **Reply #73 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:38:57 PM »

Honestly I've played rogues off and on, my advice is you got to pick your fights and parties, there ARE weapons out there that will benefit you in taking those pesky undead down (bludfires morningstar of justice for example) is an example wep for that.

simply put rogues aint meant to fight undead toe to toe, even flanking etc, get yourself packing a white stag bow or other ismilar weapon and you'll be able to dish out some damage, sure not like you can normally but its SOMETHING and something to me is better then nothing

Badelaire · « **Reply #74 on:** July 27, 2012, 03:41:27 PM »

Any dex based rogue would sell a kidney for one or even a pair of sun maces and rightly so. With the right equip, even a 10 str rogue can be effective in fighting undead just on their base damage. If I wanted to be an undead hunter though I'd roll a cleric, paladin or ranger concept centered on that principle. Like bards, rogues are a jack of trades master of non which makes them very versatile in the right hands.

Author Topic: Rogues and undeads (Read 21379 times)

Badelaire