Author Topic: DND and Guns  (Read 10507 times)

Sharauvyn

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DND and Guns
« on: April 21, 2012, 11:06:37 AM »
Okay, I'll make this brief, and people can post their own thoughts.

Personally, I don't think guns are really compatible with DND gaming.  Dungeons and Dragons is about medieval sword and sorcery adventures and stories, filled with magic and fantastic beasts.  Guns directly brought about the end of the use of  battlefield armor and replaced over time the sword, both of which are quintessential elements of the medieval time period that Dungeons and Dragons gaming is based in, and are associated with a technological, scientific age where the prominence of fantastic beasts in people's minds diminished sharply.  Quite simply, guns kill the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons.  A few here and there as an oddity is one thing, but lately, it might be just my perception, but it's been feeling to me like they're getting more and more common to the point I'm starting to feel like they're ready to take over the server and push out the true marks of DND gaming.  I  know I'm only one person, and others may feel differently, but I really wouldn't mind seeing guns and their associated objects (most notably black powder and bullets) removed from the game entirely.  Guns don't contribute to DND.  They kill it and end it.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2012, 11:10:59 AM »
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to the opinion that you're wrong.

Besides they're canon for the setting. They're not going away.

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Jay

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2012, 11:20:22 AM »
Guns in the server are a novelty, nothing more or less. They don't work with things like multiple attacks a round, or sneak attacks. So they are really just a  gimmick to add to the immersion of areas that have a high civilization rating, in which case they add to the feel, and don't detract from it.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2012, 11:21:33 AM »
Sorry, that came off as smarmy.

But I maintain that guns are just another weapon. They're historically accurate and can enhance the proper setting, depending on what you're trying to reproduce. I've used them in games before and never had my fun "diminished" or felt the game was "killed." It worked just fine, because that was the historical period I was trying to emulate (late Renaissance). If you're trying to reproduce a Renaissance feel, it actually hurts the representation to not have things like guns because otherwise you have this eternal medieval period which is not terribly believable. Scientific advancement doesn't stop just because magic exists (in fact I'd say magic makes some sciences a lot easier and a lot of things discovered earlier than they were in the real world).

Anyway, like I said earlier, firearms are a canon part of the Ravenloft setting and present in the published books. They're in the game for a reason, and they're not getting removed. I'm sorry you feel it "hurts" your game, but it does just the opposite for me.

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Geiger

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »
I love guns. Especially primitive guns. I hope they add muskets soon and fix up what we have. Mwahahah.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2012, 11:26:29 AM »
I love guns. Especially primitive guns. I hope they add muskets soon and fix up what we have. Mwahahah.
I think we tried it but it just looked odd. The way guns work in the game is a workaround because the NWN engine won't allow the addition of new missile weapons. So when we tried to add muskets, your PC would hold it one-handed like the current pistols. It didn't look right at all.

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Miuo

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2012, 11:31:38 AM »
Sames, i love how primitive the guns are, and the rp they offer :) Also i dont find them very immersion breaking since they are so rarely seen and when they are seen they are often in the area where they fit in. (shrug)

herkles

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2012, 11:40:24 AM »
As a medieval historian I must explain that you are wrong. Guns did not directly end the medieval period. They contributed towards certainly but there are other factors that were way more important in ending it, The black death is one of them. The black death is one of the large reasons why the medieval period ended. Two other events that helped end this period are the renaissance and the reformation. It is important to keep in mind that these two events were happening during the late middle ages.

The medieval period is not one uniform time period. this is a big mistake for people to equate everything that was in the medieval period was going on at the same time. There is the low middle ages, 5th to 10th centuries CE, the High middle ages, 11th to 13th centuries, and the late middle ages 14th and 15th centuries. Though some historians would certainly debate these dates; particularly the 'beginning' and the 'ending'.  keep in this is about a thousand years, things from one period or even in the same period are not the same across all other times.  For example just look at the development of architecture, a person in the early medieval period would be astonished by the Gothic cathedrals wondering how the hell they were built, and this is going for the stone masons and what not who build things like that for a living.

Guns did exist in the middle ages, they were first made in the late 14th century, about the 1390s. Cannons also existed to, though a bit earlier from what I have read,  during the Siege of Calais the english had cannons. Yup a siege in the hundred years war in the middle of the 14th century, 1300s, had cannons.

as for the feel, the thing is that DnD produces several diffrent types of generas. some of which personally I would not want to have guns in if I were playing in that specific genera, sword and sorcery comes to mind. However ravenloft is inspired by gothic horror, among other things. It has a technology level that is late medieval at best, more of renissance then anything else. Some domains are clearly higher cultural level, Dementlieu and Lamordia. Others are less in cultural area. Guns IMO fit the server and the feeling of it.

Also keep in mind that these guns are not modern guns. Dementlieu has muskets, most other domains do not. Flintlocks, matchlocks, wheellocks, pistols are used. all of which are single shot and often inaccurate and sometimes deadly to their shooter but they are a weapon that does exist. In NWN they are mostly as Jay says a novelty item, but they are a fun effective weapon for 1 on 1 rp if you are doing that.


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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2012, 12:11:31 PM »
I think we tried it but it just looked odd. The way guns work in the game is a workaround because the NWN engine won't allow the addition of new missile weapons. So when we tried to add muskets, your PC would hold it one-handed like the current pistols. It didn't look right at all.

Noooooo~

I wonder if it is possible for us to just use the skins of those weapons and place them in a category like -crossbow- or to assign them a different animation using the .2da, like how we fixed spears and all that?

Dread

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2012, 12:13:12 PM »
Guns didn't end the medieval period, as Herkles says. Indeed, and medieval warfare wasn't ended by guns but by widespread use of cannons. It was cannons that brought down the Theodosian Walls of Constantinople, which were the most impregnable walls in existence. The city was unassailable before cannons. Once Constantinople fell, people started to realize castles weren't working, and decided to build starforts instead, which would  be in use up until the end of World War I.

Blackthorn51

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2012, 12:18:59 PM »
Firearms are canon to more than just Ravenloft.  They are also in 3.0 DnD.

Have you never read the 3.0 Dungeon Masters Guide?  There are several pages dedicated to their operation and systems.  I believe its near the page with all the 'size categories' of various galleys and other ships.  They were included in earlier versions as well I believe. 

So yeah...  Firearms have been in DnD for a long, long time.  Of course your characters aren't running around with machine guns and stuff, but flintlocks and muskets are nothing new to DnD or the Ravenloft Setting...

RigorMortis

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 01:11:05 PM »
Being a table-top dungeon master myself, I am aware each person has a different opinion, But I think the problem is the rule inwhich you are trying to place won't work for this sort of Setting, When your working with four or five people to create a world, Its completely up to them, I've had requests for everything from Star Wars based dungeons inwhich I had to make new classes to dungeons and classes based on "Avatar: The Last Air Bender" and even a request for a dungeon in the Marvel Multiverse (In-Which Dormmamu was the Strahd)

Point being that D and D is limited only by your imagination, that is what makes it a wonderful game that we come back to time and time again, If you were to come play a session in my home, I would definatly work with you to make guns or thier accessories more difficult to obtain or un-obtainable. But BlueBomber has to Cater to a community of well over 300+ People, I am new here, but Its hard to even get 5 people to agree, Imagine the compromising he has to deal with and the grief when he tries to get something Implemented.

If you do not like guns, just try not to keep them on any of your characters, I've actually only just heard of them, not even seen one, and I've been here for two weeks. They are more rare and I like that.

EberronBruce

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 01:19:30 PM »
One campaign world that is overlook a lot is Eberron. In Eberron magic is technology. They have airship and a train system. They also have living constructs, the warforge, which are like robots with human like thinking. Also, a small group have items that are similar to guns. However, its a fantasy world with high action.

Also a little bit historical references.

In Japan, firearms were used to establish the Shogun. Once that system was in place they ban firearms because it would destroy their social hierarchy system. There would be no need for a samurai if a peasant can kill him a hundred paces. It was like that until the Meishi (if I spell that correctly) period. Where the samurai class was eventually destroyed. Even though the east developed gun powder and probably the first style of firearms, it was the westerners that latched on to them. And it can be said that the firearm lead to the destruction of western martial arts, where the east still practice theirs. With the firearm it wasn't necessary for someone to spend their time learning how to use the blade for war or for self defense. Luckly, western masters wrote down their styles, which is being study by some martial arts scholars today.

The firearms in DND are primitive. They tend to be smooth bore, without rifling, and use flint lock or match lock. They are not accurate individually but where used in a folly. A wall of lead, much like a wall of arrows. The hand cannon was primary design to pierce full plate. They were extremely slow to load, even for a skilled person. In large numbers the old style guns can reek havoc. Considering a small group, well you may get lucky and kill your opponent before he reaches you, but you got one shot with a highly inaccurate weapon, before he reaches up and runs you through. A gun may not be an asset to an adventuring group.

With the models, rifles should really be in place. They came first before pistols. Models I suggest trying for is crossbows, or double ended weapons because the image throws them oven the shoulder and the stance. Better if you can blend crossbow models with double edge weapon models. --> Lots of work, lots of changes in models, and do not know how implementable it is in the engine.

Blackthorn51

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 01:37:43 PM »
With the models, rifles should really be in place. They came first before pistols. Models I suggest trying for is crossbows, or double ended weapons because the image throws them oven the shoulder and the stance. Better if you can blend crossbow models with double edge weapon models. --> Lots of work, lots of changes in models, and do not know how implementable it is in the engine.

Thats a really good idea!  If I were any good with scripting I'd try to figure it out...  Makes some sense too.  *thumbs up*

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2012, 02:22:04 PM »

With the models, rifles should really be in place. They came first before pistols. Models I suggest trying for is crossbows, or double ended weapons because the image throws them oven the shoulder and the stance. Better if you can blend crossbow models with double edge weapon models. --> Lots of work, lots of changes in models, and do not know how implementable it is in the engine.
The NWN engine doesn't work that way. What you're describing simply cannot be done.

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Perkele

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2012, 03:34:25 PM »

With the models, rifles should really be in place. They came first before pistols. Models I suggest trying for is crossbows, or double ended weapons because the image throws them oven the shoulder and the stance. Better if you can blend crossbow models with double edge weapon models. --> Lots of work, lots of changes in models, and do not know how implementable it is in the engine.
The NWN engine doesn't work that way. What you're describing simply cannot be done.
Well. I was on a Star Wars server once and they had blaster rifles with crossbow animation, it worked pretty well too. Had the sound and visual effects if i remember correctly.
Gimme the GEP gun.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2012, 05:30:31 PM »

With the models, rifles should really be in place. They came first before pistols. Models I suggest trying for is crossbows, or double ended weapons because the image throws them oven the shoulder and the stance. Better if you can blend crossbow models with double edge weapon models. --> Lots of work, lots of changes in models, and do not know how implementable it is in the engine.
The NWN engine doesn't work that way. What you're describing simply cannot be done.
Well. I was on a Star Wars server once and they had blaster rifles with crossbow animation, it worked pretty well too. Had the sound and visual effects if i remember correctly.
Yeah, but that's because they completely replaced the crossbows. You can't mix and match with missile weapons in NWN. You either replace all of them or you don't.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2012, 09:57:49 PM »
I have always perceived firearms as a sort of novelty which plays into the more broad theme of the menace of technology and demise of superstition. It is the natural evolution of society which precipitates this confrontation and however strange it is, I find it enjoyable. On the same note, amidst the menagerie of gothic horror titles, many are dependent upon late-renaissance era to post-renaissance technology (i.e. Frankenstein) to substantiate their premise. Denying this is to an extent denying [partitions of] the nature of the setting.

Arcane magic is infinitely more frightening. Let the peasants have their heretical implements.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2012, 10:00:05 PM by The Prophet »
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Sharauvyn

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 10:52:42 PM »
To those who quote history:

This thread was not about history as it was started. It was about the overall tone, spirit, and "feel" of Dungeons and Dragons the game.  Up through and including 2nd edition AD&D, guns were either absent, or provided with a specifically mentioned caveat that a DM might disallow its use, and they don't appear in the artwork of the core rulebooks, nor by mention in any of the other parts of the books except their specific description.  I'm honestly not as familiar with the 3rd edition stuff as I am with Basic through 2nd ed. (which says more of my familiarity with the core books of 2nd ed., being able to quote the page numbers of key tables after 10 years away from the books and now having them back), but guns really just kind of aren't there in the earlier versions of the game.  I know guns were a part of particularly late middle ages life, but I didn't say they ended the Middle Ages, but rather that they are detrimental to the spirit of DND gaming.  Personally, I take their absence from the Basic edition and specific mention as something that a DM might disallow in 2nd (and most likely 1st, though I don't have the books) editions to indicate that the originators of the game felt a similar way. 

At any rate, some things just need to be said before they eat one up from the inside, and once they're said, that's it.  This would be one of those things.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2012, 11:04:39 PM »
Personally, I would agree with you Sharauvyn. Guns ruin the mood for me when I play on fantasy setting type games, and even here, the Ravenloft campaign, guns took awhile to get used to; this is so because guns do give off a certain mood.

I've gotten used to guns now, however. It's more or less a steampunk feel when guns are applied to magical worlds.

I'm very superficial and fickle when I notice I don't like something in a game. Usually I'll stop playing the game, sometimes I'll ignore it, and then sometimes I just get used to it overtime and realize the importance of the thing I don't like.

That's not to say you are fickle however, but it is to say we have something in common when you and I notice that guns don't feel like they belong in DnD. :)


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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2012, 11:09:34 PM »
Spoiler: show
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCWdCKPtnYE&feature=related[/youtube]


I would say you wouldn't like reading about Gnomish or Dwarven cultural achievements since 2.0.

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2012, 11:46:18 PM »
To those who quote history:

This thread was not about history as it was started. It was about the overall tone, spirit, and "feel" of Dungeons and Dragons the game.  Up through and including 2nd edition AD&D, guns were either absent, or provided with a specifically mentioned caveat that a DM might disallow its use, and they don't appear in the artwork of the core rulebooks, nor by mention in any of the other parts of the books except their specific description.  I'm honestly not as familiar with the 3rd edition stuff as I am with Basic through 2nd ed. (which says more of my familiarity with the core books of 2nd ed., being able to quote the page numbers of key tables after 10 years away from the books and now having them back), but guns really just kind of aren't there in the earlier versions of the game.  I know guns were a part of particularly late middle ages life, but I didn't say they ended the Middle Ages, but rather that they are detrimental to the spirit of DND gaming.  Personally, I take their absence from the Basic edition and specific mention as something that a DM might disallow in 2nd (and most likely 1st, though I don't have the books) editions to indicate that the originators of the game felt a similar way. 

At any rate, some things just need to be said before they eat one up from the inside, and once they're said, that's it.  This would be one of those things.
Guns were introduced in 2nd edition rules, specifically the 2nd edition PHB: pg. 73 "Arquebus." They've been an option in the books since then.

And you really should stop assuming everyone must play the game the way you do. Firearms don't ruin the spirit of D&D for everyone, just you. They don't for me or most other people here. You don't have to like them, but they're not going to be removed from this server.

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Sharauvyn

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2012, 11:48:34 PM »
If you do not like guns, just try not to keep them on any of your characters ...

That would be all well and good, if you could selectively decide not to take damage when someone decides to use one against you. :P

airengale

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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2012, 12:20:49 AM »
I don't think Sharauvyn is expecting guns to be removed from this game, especially since she acknowledged that she may be the only one feeling a certain way towards guns.
I  know I'm only one person, and others may feel differently, but I really wouldn't mind seeing guns and their associated objects (most notably black powder and bullets) removed from the game entirely.  Guns don't contribute to DND.  They kill it and end it.

Therefore, I don't think it's the case that she is imposing her preference towards anyone. Especially when she also stated,
At any rate, some things just need to be said before they eat one up from the inside, and once they're said, that's it.  This would be one of those things.

So, perhaps we need to stop feeling defensive when someone deviates from the norm.


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Re: DND and Guns
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2012, 12:22:19 AM »
Guns are very fitting for a renaissance era culture like Dementlieu.

If you don't like guns, take comfort in the fact that Strahd outlawed them in Barovia! :P
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