Author Topic: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes  (Read 18831 times)

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2012, 04:44:05 PM »
Protip: Ravenloft is not the real world. Don't assume that just because something happened at a certain point in Earth's history that it is the same in Ravenloft.

No offense, but that's an unhelpful comment and I feel that you haven't read my posts. Everyone in this thread knows perfectly well that Ravenloft is not the real world. It remains the fact that it comes off as a very strange setting artifact -- an injection of 20th century moralism into a Gotthic Horror setting, like when PCs start acting like modern people when confronted by the garda in the Outskirts -- with no real visible explanation or cause.

The authenticity of a setting depends on having fluent and sensible causaility: a convincing cause for every effect. Most stuff -- like vampires, ghosts, etc. -- you can get away with waving your hands and saying "It's Magic/Gotthic Horror/Fantasy!" because this is a fantasy setting that we all buy into.

But things like the illegality of drugs are products of deep cultural conflicts in our own world; the history of these things is full, rich and living, something we are still feeling the effects of to this day (e.g. "War on Drugs"). If you wave your hands here, you do your setting a double disfavour: not merely making it slightly less authentic, but also making it impossible to retell a story arc.

This is my core gripe: it's not only less authentic, it's also less interesting that opium is already illegal.
The only way it could be "less authentic" is if you're expecting it to be like the real world. So I stand by my comment. Historical accuracy is only worth a damn when it involves characters from the Gothic Earth. In any other scenario, it's not very important.

As for why it's illegal in Barovia? That has a simple, canon-friendly explanation. Hazlan grows poppies and people in Hazlan do smoke opium. The effects of smoking opium would be known to some of the more knowledgeable people in Barovia, specifically Strahd. Peasants doped up on opium don't do any work, and thus no taxes make their way to Strahd's coffers. Strahd, being a gigantic miser, does not want this under any circumstances. Thus, opium is illegal in Barovia.

/thread

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2012, 04:48:54 PM »
/thread

Spoiler: show


On a serious note, that's a very good explanation as to why Strahd is vs Opium and why its illegal in Barovia.

Good job.  :thumbup:


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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2012, 05:06:43 PM »
The only way it could be "less authentic" is if you're expecting it to be like the real world. So I stand by my comment. Historical accuracy is only worth a damn when it involves characters from the Gothic Earth. In any other scenario, it's not very important.

As for why it's illegal in Barovia? That has a simple, canon-friendly explanation. Hazlan grows poppies and people in Hazlan do smoke opium. The effects of smoking opium would be known to some of the more knowledgeable people in Barovia, specifically Strahd. Peasants doped up on opium don't do any work, and thus no taxes make their way to Strahd's coffers. Strahd, being a gigantic miser, does not want this under any circumstances. Thus, opium is illegal in Barovia.


But we have taken other RL Scenario and use them to make IG...Fatigue for one example we change from the Original Game. To make it more RL. I would think Strahd would rather Sell a license to Doctors for use , Tax them for the use and possible grow them as a cash crop for other Domains. Makes Gold for Barovia, Tax is involved in such and if a Doctor abuses such you can take away the license.
Besides the Server takes on a life on its own and Canon might be a good guide to go by but we have Surpassed that a while back. I would rather see it as a RP Aid then just make it Illegal.

This make more sense to me and fits better in my opinion.






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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2012, 05:29:58 PM »
The only way it could be "less authentic" is if you're expecting it to be like the real world. So I stand by my comment. Historical accuracy is only worth a damn when it involves characters from the Gothic Earth. In any other scenario, it's not very important.

As for why it's illegal in Barovia? That has a simple, canon-friendly explanation. Hazlan grows poppies and people in Hazlan do smoke opium. The effects of smoking opium would be known to some of the more knowledgeable people in Barovia, specifically Strahd. Peasants doped up on opium don't do any work, and thus no taxes make their way to Strahd's coffers. Strahd, being a gigantic miser, does not want this under any circumstances. Thus, opium is illegal in Barovia.


But we have taken other RL Scenario and use them to make IG...Fatigue for one example we change from the Original Game. To make it more RL. I would think Strahd would rather Sell a license to Doctors for use , Tax them for the use and possible grow them as a cash crop for other Domains. Makes Gold for Barovia, Tax is involved in such and if a Doctor abuses such you can take away the license.
Besides the Server takes on a life on its own and Canon might be a good guide to go by but we have Surpassed that a while back. I would rather see it as a RP Aid then just make it Illegal.

This make more sense to me and fits better in my opinion.





No, it doesn't. Strahd is a brutal tyrant. He wouldn't want his subjects doping up for any reason, medical or otherwise. Besides, medicine is pretty primitive and backwards in Barovia anyway. They don't have physicians.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2012, 05:35:43 PM »
Like I mentioned before, I think in terms of legality, perfectly good reasons can be given for the current laws. Authenticity goes only so far as the willingness of one to explore reasons behind why a Darklord might desire opium to be illegal, and I think there is enough information behind the Darklords to find a good reason, Blue's reason for the Barovian law a prime example. It's attitudes toward opium that I think could stand to benefit from these discussions, both from a historical perspective and what modern knowledge gives us as to what effects, short-term and long-term, opium has.

As it stands now, opium has been a part of some very good RP Inari has been involved with, either from people using it, smuggling it, or using it to relieve pain from an injury to someone she cares about. I wouldn't have things any other way than they are now, other than increased awareness if a character does choose to RP a strong opinion on opium, or decides to have their character use it. This all goes without saying as well that, should opium be legal and more easily obtainable, its use would likely be more widespread. Would this be more akin to a historical context? I think so. Even moving away from the historical vs canon debate, I see two issues arising with the possibility of widespread opium usage. One, a greater frequency of situations where opium isn't RPed knowledgeably (the 'opium is like weed' scenario), which would just lead right back to these sort of discussions. Two, some players might not react too favorably to the frequent presence of opium RP, given real life experiences with opium and its derivatives.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2012, 06:03:40 PM »
The only way it could be "less authentic" is if you're expecting it to be like the real world. So I stand by my comment. Historical accuracy is only worth a damn when it involves characters from the Gothic Earth. In any other scenario, it's not very important.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not talking about authenticity towards the real world; I'm talking about authenticity towards a fantasy setting. My issue is that I feel some people are bringing in excessively modern attitudes and morals to drugs into a fantasy setting anyway.

I'm not bringing in the real world examples to say, "This is what the setting should strictly be like". Rather, I'm merely high-lighting how radically different these attitudes were in past ages, and attempting to explain what shaped our modern attitudes and how, so that people get a better understanding of how these things came about and the forces at work behind them.

When outlanders get into conflicts with garda because some players bring in excessively modern attitudes and morals, you see people creating threads to gently remind them that most fantasy places have different attitudes and morals than modern Earth, and they're encouraged to remember this and enjoy it. (One particular thread that stands out in my mind was one where people were reminded that Toril isn't a particulary open-minded, liberal place.)

The point is, we all have an "OOC bias", if you will, towards things formed from the cultures we were raised in. Roleplaying and authenticity is about transcending this OOC bias to be authentic towards the setting and the story. That's what I'm trying to help do here. If I'm coming off as a pedantic bore who's focusing on unimportant things, well, I'm sorry. I guess we all have our pet peeves.

Quote
As for why it's illegal in Barovia? That has a simple, canon-friendly explanation. Hazlan grows poppies and people in Hazlan do smoke opium. The effects of smoking opium would be known to some of the more knowledgeable people in Barovia, specifically Strahd. Peasants doped up on opium don't do any work, and thus no taxes make their way to Strahd's coffers. Strahd, being a gigantic miser, does not want this under any circumstances. Thus, opium is illegal in Barovia.

/thread

I'm sorry that you don't want to discuss this further with me. I think we could do better.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 06:05:46 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2012, 06:48:39 PM »
Can we get some less destructive drugs like Psilocybin mushrooms and pipe weed?

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2012, 07:09:05 PM »
Can we get some less destructive drugs like Psilocybin mushrooms and pipe weed?

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

  Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no? You could add Marijuana to the herbalism plants that grow, making tea with it results in a potion of Tasha's Hideous Laughter. On a more related note, while I do agree that there should be a fair bit of correlation between Ravenloft's time-period and Earth's, I don't think they should be identical necessarily. Blue did make some very good points about why it would be illegal. As for its medical properties, as stated, they would be highly diminished in relevance by the prevalent healing magics. Most Barovians I've met in-game acknowledge that while they hate magic, they will readily go to a temple if a relative or loved-one is gravely injured. Considering that you can walk into the Morninglordian church and the priestess will heal your wounds for free, why would anyone pay for a drug that will only alleviate your pain? Hell, you can walk around injured and it's usually only a matter of time before some PC offers to heal your wounds. Magic aside, it's relatively easy to brew potions of healing, so again, why would you want to buy opium to treat pain when you can buy one of those and treat the wound instead. In all likelihood, no one in the RL setting would actually use opium for anything other than its narcotic properties.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 12:05:43 AM by Serillian »

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2012, 11:19:09 PM »
Good on bringing up Hazlan. I want to bring up early stages in Zach's struggle with the drug, part of the story that was never told.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for Faerun characters to hate it. Hazlik is a Red Wizard. Zach used to be chaotic good, he had a lot of radical left-wing beliefs (There are groups in Faerun with radical left-wing beliefs). Zach used to believe the drug was inherently bad news because Hazlan was involved in it, and slaves were probably used in farming and harvesting it. One day, his good friend Dimitri told him to lighten up, and gave him a dose of it. It sat in his bag for a long time, he didn't want anything to do with it but figured the pain relieving properties might make it useful in case of emergency.

Then one day, all of the other Vardo members disappeared. Dimitri had been gone for a number of days, and Jinx got fed up and walked off mid-shop, leaving all of her inventory on the ground. Zach panicked, he was the last Vardo left. Under the stress, he took it to calm down. There's a post in his Vardo log where he's cataloging Jinx's merchandise while drugged up, a number of the items he just calls by the first thing to come to mind.

So there went his stash. One day, he was at the Vistani vendor, and he saw another dose of it. The mental gymnastics began, he thought to himself, "I'm giving money to the Vistani. Not Hazlan." Once again, it sat in his bag for a while. What triggered him using it was Lofwyr going into the drain and killing every single Vardo and caliban there.

His all-out addiction really began after Mephisto's Darkon plot. It hit Zach so hard, he just didn't care. I suppose you could trace the roots of his fall back to that point, it's when he gave up one of his morals for something.



My point with all of this is describing that if you're from Faerun and have a reason to not like Red Wizards or slavery, you've got a reason to not like opium. For Zach, it was never about what the drug did. It was the politics behind it. His history with the Red Wizards is also why I had him fall to opium specifically, because OOC I love irony.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2012, 12:14:42 AM »
Good on bringing up Hazlan. I want to bring up early stages in Zach's struggle with the drug, part of the story that was never told.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for Faerun characters to hate it. Hazlik is a Red Wizard. Zach used to be chaotic good, he had a lot of radical left-wing beliefs (There are groups in Faerun with radical left-wing beliefs). Zach used to believe the drug was inherently bad news because Hazlan was involved in it, and slaves were probably used in farming and harvesting it. One day, his good friend Dimitri told him to lighten up, and gave him a dose of it. It sat in his bag for a long time, he didn't want anything to do with it but figured the pain relieving properties might make it useful in case of emergency.

Then one day, all of the other Vardo members disappeared. Dimitri had been gone for a number of days, and Jinx got fed up and walked off mid-shop, leaving all of her inventory on the ground. Zach panicked, he was the last Vardo left. Under the stress, he took it to calm down. There's a post in his Vardo log where he's cataloging Jinx's merchandise while drugged up, a number of the items he just calls by the first thing to come to mind.

So there went his stash. One day, he was at the Vistani vendor, and he saw another dose of it. The mental gymnastics began, he thought to himself, "I'm giving money to the Vistani. Not Hazlan." Once again, it sat in his bag for a while. What triggered him using it was Lofwyr going into the drain and killing every single Vardo and caliban there.

His all-out addiction really began after Mephisto's Darkon plot. It hit Zach so hard, he just didn't care. I suppose you could trace the roots of his fall back to that point, it's when he gave up one of his morals for something.



My point with all of this is describing that if you're from Faerun and have a reason to not like Red Wizards or slavery, you've got a reason to not like opium. For Zach, it was never about what the drug did. It was the politics behind it. His history with the Red Wizards is also why I had him fall to opium specifically, because OOC I love irony.
That's another good point. Hazlan isn't particularly liked by Barovians, either. Between their open practice of arcane magic and their devotion to the wicked Lawgiver Church, there would be quite a bit of social stigma attached to opium as well.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2012, 04:03:08 AM »
I salute the intend of the original post, even if we should consider the real world history only as inspirational. Authenticity can be enriching the details and often - eye opening. There's more to this place than adhering to the official Ravenloft franchise, and we should always be open to the discussion of and reflection upon what is.

That said, we need to be on the same terms and there, canon is generally the outset. There are - as have been argued - several reasons why opium would be illegal in certain domains - but in fact I feel the overarching reasoning is due to atmospheric considerations. Opium dens in a xenophobic, narrow-minded and backward society such as Barovia should be something alien and strange - and thus, if occuring at all, shady and held in secrecy. The prohibition facilitates that and as long as there's also a concise IC reasoning, I see no persuasive reasoning for changing that aspect.

But again, I salute the intend of the topic - and it has certainly widened my view on how to understand the role of opium in these early days of it's use. For that alone (provided it has had that effect upon others than just me), it is worthwhile bringing it up.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 05:55:39 AM by Zarathustra217 »

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2012, 07:34:07 AM »
Are you sure about that? They would see it as medicine?

The entire distinction between a medicine and a recreational drug is largely one that arose relatively recently, with the modern approach to medicine. Prior to this, medical knowledge was the domain of a few experts; but for each doctor there was an equal number of quacks. Heck, for centuries they believed leeching and bleeding patients was a good idea!

However, it's a matter of record that opium was used as an anaesthetic and had many medical uses going back to ancient times. Sure, it was also used as a recreational drug then too (usually eaten or drunk when mixed into a kind of tea), but as I said, the explosion into a full-blown narcotic was very much a product of cheap cultivation in India combined with the spread of the practice of smoking it -- both of these were, outside of China, happened during the Victorian times.

I would agree with this. As recently as the American Civil War opium derrivatives were pretty much viewed as a potent medicine. In a particularly notorious case John Bell Hood was running the entire Army of Tennissee while consuming vast quantities of laudinum (i.e. opium) daily. Admittedly he had lost an arm while charging little round top at Gettysburg, and recovered sufficiently to have his leg blown off at Chicamogua later that year. When portions of the union army escaped from the trap set at Spring Hill he was so furious that he ordered the attack on Franklin Tennissee. In terms of numbers involved it was an exact repeat of Pickets charge with proportionally MUCH more casualties. He presided over the army of Tennissee until the winter of 1865 when it was destroyed in battle outside Nashville. The only example of an entire army effectively being destroyed in the entire history of the American Civil War. In his time Hood was one of Lees most trusted subordinates, and Lee counted on Hood and his Texas brigade whenever events with the Army of Northern Virginia were particularly dire, but the combination of severe injury coupled with addiction to a very potent narcotic ruined what was in every way an elete commander of veteran shock troops.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2012, 09:24:01 AM »
If we are talking about drugs or plants that have drug like effects then several things I think should be looked at.

If anyone has live or been to the western US they might be able to relate. In Virginia city, there were some Chinese there that had opium dens. It was alien and the users of the drug were Chinese. In John Day in Oregon, there is a Chinese medicine museum there. Where the ceilings are black because they smoked opium there. So, from this archeological evidence it was proven that the earlier Chinese Americans brought the drug over from China and practice its use. To the white people, this was alien to them.  This can be put into the campaign in a similar fashion as those that was describing Hazlan. For Hazlan, particularly the slaves, the could harvest and use opium. Of course, part of that drug will make it to other markets. But I will see it in Barovia as a foreign and not except thing. There is an abandon house in the slums, which could easily be turned into a opium den.

Since we are on the subject of drugs, I would like to mention the uses of these drugs. There are three kind of uses that I can think of. Medical, recreation, and religious. We all can understand recreational uses of these drugs. It is through the recreational use is "why" there is so called war on drugs. I think everyone these days can understand this and as Nortune pointed out with his character. I'm sure that in ancient times there were drug addictions but I don't know how serious because modern science has made drugs more potent. This is one RP aspect.

Also not to mention the in Peru, the locals chew on the coca leaf. It gives them a small amount of the active drug in cocaine but it is at low dosage that they don't seem to have problems with additions. This helps them handle high altitudes and helps them go about the work tirelessly.  This practice is an ancient one.

I think everyone can understand the medical reasons as well. We all get sick and had to take medicine for our aliments. So, we can understand the uses for pain killing or fighting disease, ect. Also, there is uses in ways like Oriental medicine which is a different approach to medical practices. People playing doctors or nondivine healers probably will uses herbs and drugs in this way. Another RP aspect.

The third I would like to mention is the one I think that gets overlook, but shouldn't because it can play a huge role in RP. It is the religious uses of drugs. The native Americans did this. And in Peru there is still religious practices uses of drugs. These drugs were used to go into a trance to communicate to the spirits in the spirit world. I will give an example that is still practice in Peru to this day. Up high in the mountains there is a lake that is hard to access. They believe this lake has mystical properties. People with all kinds of aliments will travel this path on donkeys and mules to get to this lake. We these people get there with a shaman. The shaman will partake some water with a cactus in a ritual. Everyone, then partakes in this cactus water. Often times the people get sick, but this cactus water has a drug in it that has a hallucination. Then they go through a length ritual with the lake. It is much different than anything western you can imagine. But the person comes out of it feeling better and that they accomplish something. I think this RP should be practice, particularly by druids or nature style priests. I think it is an excellent RP perspective that has historical roots. This I think should be considered as far as drugs are used in a fantasy world, the religious aspects of it.

Also you can stigma type drugs for races too.
Dwarves -Dwarven Ale and alcholol.
Elves - maybe a type of herb or weed like marijuana
Halfling- maybe some pipe weed
Gnomes- maybe some special gnome drug
I think moderate uses can turn some of a particular culture of a race and make that culture more alive. 

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2012, 01:36:50 PM »
Gnomes- maybe some special gnome drug

Gnomes do rock.

*nyuk nyuk nyuk* :roflmao:

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2012, 12:08:14 AM »

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no?

No. Saruman even chides Gandalf saying the weed has dulled his mind. Radagast the Brown smoked more of it though

its one of the reasons perry was such a dumbass as well (that, and he was very young and had low wisdom to begin with)

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2012, 08:45:21 AM »
Gandalf was a Maiar, something akin to a Celestrial in DD standards. He is not going to be affected by pipe weed. Besides all the other Istari failed thier task but Gandalf.


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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2012, 01:22:27 PM »

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no?

No. Saruman even chides Gandalf saying the weed has dulled his mind. Radagast the Brown smoked more of it though

its one of the reasons perry was such a dumbass as well (that, and he was very young and had low wisdom to begin with)


Uh, no. It was tobacco. Tolkien enjoyed tobacco and wanted to have it in Middle Earth, but didn't want to use it by name because it didn't sound "English" enough for him, which is something that is well-documented; he even cut a bit of dialogue where Gandalf and Frodo are eating tomatoes because "tomato" didn't sound English enough for him.

The whole "pipe weed = marijuana!" nonsense started with juvenile stoners in the 70s. :roll:

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2012, 01:50:28 PM »
guys arnt we going overboard?   i mean really lotr chars???? its a make believe world with make believe rules and make believe stats and make believe characteristics.

potm aint any difrant from that.

am sorry apro that this topic didnt brought up or portraid what you wanted but i think its time someone locks this   circle gone round long enough.

plus side we did learn plenty of history stuff about opium.
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2012, 06:26:11 PM »

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no?

No. Saruman even chides Gandalf saying the weed has dulled his mind. Radagast the Brown smoked more of it though

its one of the reasons perry was such a dumbass as well (that, and he was very young and had low wisdom to begin with)


Uh, no. It was tobacco. Tolkien enjoyed tobacco and wanted to have it in Middle Earth, but didn't want to use it by name because it didn't sound "English" enough for him, which is something that is well-documented; he even cut a bit of dialogue where Gandalf and Frodo are eating tomatoes because "tomato" didn't sound English enough for him.

The whole "pipe weed = marijuana!" nonsense started with juvenile stoners in the 70s. :roll:

That may be true about the pipe weed = marijuana thing starting in the 70's but watch the movies again and tell me Peter Jackson didnt make a conscious decision to have his characters ACT like they were smoking pot. Any time pipe weed makes an appearance in the movies everyone looks as glazed as a donut, they giggle non-stop, they bump into stuff, and their always either getting ready to eat lots of food or looking forward to eating lots of food. Those are all signs of something I have vast ammounts of experience with...from movies and stuff.

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2012, 07:32:15 PM »

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no?

No. Saruman even chides Gandalf saying the weed has dulled his mind. Radagast the Brown smoked more of it though

its one of the reasons perry was such a dumbass as well (that, and he was very young and had low wisdom to begin with)


Uh, no. It was tobacco. Tolkien enjoyed tobacco and wanted to have it in Middle Earth, but didn't want to use it by name because it didn't sound "English" enough for him, which is something that is well-documented; he even cut a bit of dialogue where Gandalf and Frodo are eating tomatoes because "tomato" didn't sound English enough for him.

The whole "pipe weed = marijuana!" nonsense started with juvenile stoners in the 70s. :roll:

That may be true about the pipe weed = marijuana thing starting in the 70's but watch the movies again and tell me Peter Jackson didnt make a conscious decision to have his characters ACT like they were smoking pot. Any time pipe weed makes an appearance in the movies everyone looks as glazed as a donut, they giggle non-stop, they bump into stuff, and their always either getting ready to eat lots of food or looking forward to eating lots of food. Those are all signs of something I have vast ammounts of experience with...from movies and stuff.
I don't see that in the movies at all. Looks like people smoking tobacco to me (because that's what it is).

Anyway, this is getting extremely off-topic at this point.

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EberronBruce

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2012, 03:20:45 AM »
Not all drugs were used for recreation.
Many have medical uses.
And in ancient times they had significant religious practices as well. See my other posts.

With these in mind the attitudes toward drugs can be extremely different. The drug can be rite that is used to enter a spirit world. I think there will be a few players with this attitude. We have to break the modern ideas of drug usage and of the stoner image.

Suggestion, maybe you can add herbs that can act as drugs. 

dutchy

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2012, 04:25:19 PM »

i mean even gandalf smoked pipe weed

Pipe weed was supposed to be tobacco, no?

No. Saruman even chides Gandalf saying the weed has dulled his mind. Radagast the Brown smoked more of it though

its one of the reasons perry was such a dumbass as well (that, and he was very young and had low wisdom to begin with)


Uh, no. It was tobacco. Tolkien enjoyed tobacco and wanted to have it in Middle Earth, but didn't want to use it by name because it didn't sound "English" enough for him, which is something that is well-documented; he even cut a bit of dialogue where Gandalf and Frodo are eating tomatoes because "tomato" didn't sound English enough for him.

The whole "pipe weed = marijuana!" nonsense started with juvenile stoners in the 70s. :roll:

That may be true about the pipe weed = marijuana thing starting in the 70's but watch the movies again and tell me Peter Jackson didnt make a conscious decision to have his characters ACT like they were smoking pot. Any time pipe weed makes an appearance in the movies everyone looks as glazed as a donut, they giggle non-stop, they bump into stuff, and their always either getting ready to eat lots of food or looking forward to eating lots of food. Those are all signs of something I have vast ammounts of experience with...from movies and stuff.
I don't see that in the movies at all. Looks like people smoking tobacco to me (because that's what it is).

Anyway, this is getting extremely off-topic at this point.

not sure what lotr movie that is but i didnt see ppl bumbing into another or break stuff cause off it i saw ppl laughing....now smoking on itself can be a social thing share a laugh a story and a smoke
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2012, 10:53:24 PM »

Budly

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2012, 05:18:28 AM »
If sex and some degree of torture is against the rules. So should drugs. EDIT: It do happen to be pretty bad, worse then having sex as far as I know and not good for minors either and is a way of self torture in the end so it covers up both of these.

The only people pro drug is those who often smoke it or in another way consume it.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:20:39 AM by Budly »

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2012, 08:16:53 AM »
I haven't experienced it to be such a big issue. Opium can add flavor and rp opporunities, if the player does not play a drug junkie 24 hours, I think it's fine. We already have brothels, can drink alcohol, not to mention the gore and murder we all experience every in game day.



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