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Author Topic: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes  (Read 18827 times)

APorg

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Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« on: April 13, 2012, 05:28:19 PM »
I thought I'd raise a topic for discussion that has been bothering me a bit in terms of "setting authenticity": namely, opium and its illegal nature. As a bit of a minor history amateur, I know enough on the subject that the way opium is treated here discords with what I know, so I wanted to talk this out for the purpose of getting over this cognitive dissonance.

It's important to note that the difference in effect between eating poppy flowers or ingesting opium, versus smoking it, is approximately on par with the difference with chewing coca leaves and smoking a crack pipe. Only the Chinese really smoked opium pre-1650CR (I choose this date because it's an often-cited "cut off" date for Ravenloft's setting authenticity); while Europeans did have access to opium pre-1650CR, they mostly consumed opium by ingesting it or by drinking derived products. It also was used commonly as a medical anaesthetic. Heck. They made baby teething solution out of it.

At this time, opium was not illegal simply because it was the province of a moneyed elite and far too rare to be considered a social nuisance.

Three factors led to opium becoming illegal:

1) The British cultivated cheap Indian opium, dramatically driving up supply.

2) The adoption of the Chinese practice of smoking it spread to Europe following increased European imperialism in the mid- to late-1800's (the First and Second Opium Wars were essentially fought so that the British could force the Chinese opium market open so they could sell them cheap Indian opium) significantly increased its narcotic effect.

As a result of these two effects, Chinese-style opium dens began appearing in Europe -- opium was no longer the province of solely the rich -- during the Victorian age. This drove the third factor.

3) Various temperance and puritanical movements had become powerful political forces in Victorian Britain; they had successfully outlawed slavery in the British Empire in 1833, and continued this crusade against various social ills well through the 19th Century into the 20th. But these successes were slow and took decades to achieve results. Legislation with any real teeth only arrived in the 1900's. Furthermore, it took a while for opium dens to rise to become a problem worth responding to in the first place.

In this game, I understand that opium is produced primarily in Hazlan and Sri-jan -- in Hazlan, it is produced by slaves, and smoked there as well. It's reasonable to assume that the first two factors would have been met -- especially in Dementlieu, with its bustling trade.

But I have a hard time seeing how the third factor could be met in either Demenltieu or Barovia.Neither country has the kind of religious establishment that can set this sort of temperance movement into motion: in Dementlieu, the Ezrites are too insular and the Halans have no political nous; in Barovia, anything the MLers or Ezrites get behind is likely to merely make the burgomasters and the Count suspicious.

More fundamentally, just how widespread would this social problem be? I can see it starting to be a cause of concern in Dementlieu, where social development is slightly higher, but fundamentally, it strikes me that opium remains a drug that is out of reach of the average commoner in both realms -- especially in Barovia. It remains a toy for the elites, and for rich outlanders with more money than sense. Why would the elites ban their own toys?

Finally, i's not a natural government reaction to make something like opium illegal; it's a natural reaction to tax it. This progression is visible in the real world, where opium was taxed increasingly heavily before finally getting banned.

So all in all, I find that the illegal nature of opium in this setting to be a big, glaring anachronism, an injection of 19th/20th century puritan moralism into my pre-1650CR Gothic Horror, that feels more like an oversight than a genuine, well-fleshed out setting element.

Anyone want to fill me in on what I've missed?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 05:39:07 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2012, 05:33:14 PM »
P.S.

Something I forgot to mention. The other side of the coin in this is that the pre-1650CR culture gets thrown out with the bathwater. The description of the Opium item in the game essentially describes it as a narcotic with medical secondary effects, but this is a Victorian/20th century perception. The pre-1650CR attitude would be strictly the opposite of this, seeing Opium instead as primarily a medicine with possibly narcotic side-effects.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Badelaire

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2012, 05:40:47 PM »
If I could add to this in a medical way, many people seem to roleplay taking opium as if smoking weed which couldn't be further from the truth. There are few characters who show the effects of an excessive lifestyle but regular opium use is a very dangerous thing in a setting with no medical care, detox programs and generally poor quality of living for the underclasses. The effects of opium are as follows:

:arrow: The most liked effect is that of Euphoria. Euphoria makes a person feel so very happy and they do not want to return to the real life that they are now in.

:arrow: The sense of emotional detachment is one effect that keeps a person desiring the drug. It is the ability not to feel any emotional pain especially if they have lost someone that they loved.

:arrow: When you are stressed out because of your job, family problems, or other situations the effect is to give you fast relieve riding you of all stressors.

:arrow: People who are in physical pain because of an illness find that the Opium relieve them of any major pain.

:arrow: The effects are to alter a person’s mood making a very quiet shy person into a more aggressive personality.

:arrow: There are those who are not able to sleep any period and stay awake for days on end. The effect on these people is to give them relief helping them to get the much-needed sleep that they need.

:arrow: The effects over a period are to cause a person to vomit. A person is no longer able to keep food down and they will vomit it up. Eventually the effect is increased weight loss.

:arrow: When a person first takes Opium, they are very sex driven but after a while, they find that their sex drive is greatly reduced.

:arrow: The effects of Opium may cause you to have itchy skin and with the scratching, you may start to develop sores. If you are a diabetic, the sores will only worsen.

:arrow: The effects on your health is very serious causing you to have increased urination, sweating, impaired vision, and the final effect of Opium is death.

Although the drug is obviously incredibly useful as pain relief in bygone times, the sole purpose of the opium wars was largely the insane profit to be garnered from control of the crops of poppies.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 05:43:02 PM by Badelaire »

Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2012, 05:43:07 PM »
This is great information!  Thank you for bringing this to light.  I suspect that even the writers of the setting weren't possibly aware of the anachronism here.

I definitely think this should be evaluated carefully, with factual information, so we can have perfect immersion.  I know, for instance, Belladonna was used to dilate the eyes of women, used as an anesthetic (in fact, combined with opium was used to treat pain in child birth) , among other things.  I've always tried to bring that usage of Belladonna to light with my RP, but it's hard.

Updating the item descriptions to appropriately jive with pre-1650 history would be a great start.

Norture

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
I had fun RPing each and every one of those. Including not being able to get it up.

Sharauvyn

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »
Here here.

I have a hard time getting past the presence of guns, personally, in a DND setting, but ... maybe that's just me. :)

Ovidiu_Lacusta

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »
I had fun RPing each and every one of those. Including not being able to get it up.

Sorry, I thought we weren't doing sex roleplay on this server? Did I miss something here?  I don't see how that is Gothic Horror.

:twocents:

dutchy

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 06:22:22 PM »
i will not deny that you have a point.

but we already are not rping it during that era else everything would be more hmmm brutal i think   
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APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 06:28:18 PM »
but we already are not rping it during that era else everything would be more hmmm brutal i think  

Hey, I'm just trying to draw from RL attitudes to make RP richer.

Think on this: pre-1650CR, opium was, as I mentioned, a rich man's painkiller.

It was used as a toothing solution for young babies in rich families, to quiet them -- saving their parents much sleep!

If pain is hell, then opium would seem like an angel to any noblewoman going through childbirth, or a nobleman who has lost a limb in battle.

These are also perceptions that would shape the "culture" of society and its attitude to opium -- opium as a heaven-sent medicine -- and pre-1650AD, they really should overshadow the more modern and recent perception of opium as a deadly narcotic -- which is largely a result of Victorian mass production and purification in the first place.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 06:31:19 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Geiger

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
While I do agree with what you've said - we've still got to sort out exactly how much from real world culture are these domains and places borrowing from. They are the skeleton, but how many organs, how much flesh do they actually provide?

Barovia may be based on a high middle ages Wallachia, but how much does it actually take from it. Keep in mind as well in Ravenloft there are supernatural things at work that keep things "balanced" - really, these countries while keeping the facade of "realism", don't technically need to engage in trade with one another. If we take the cultural aspects of Barovia into question, yes, perhaps the border regions of Barovia are more 'open minded' and do see weird stuff enough to become used to it: the case here being Immol, who trades with Hazlan and magic isn't entirely unheard of - interior Barovians are fearful or new things and weird stuff. Maybe some of the nobility might have dabbled with opium, but you're not going to see it here in any large quantity. But I mean - the stuff may just be banned because of a DM plot, or just because someone wants to punish you extra judicially.

If you have something weird on you in Barovia - I'd just say.. prepare for a boot in your ass. They don't like new things and people likes their lives to be private and quiet. No one should know if you have a gallon jugs of laudanum in your pantry.

As for Dementlieu - I can see where it might be made illegal by the Council, at least for the lower echelons because of the lower rungs being under productive and well.. happy. With the Dark Lords of Dementlieu being in some sort of cosmic chess-game, there is probably a reason for everything. Probably just plot devices. The Dementlieuse upper-crusts really don't care (and in terms of moral: religious authority, only like 5% of Dementlieu is actually religious.)

Some regions might not permit it because of xenophobia or government choice. Hazlan is a Magocracy based off the Thayan wizards, who are in turn twice removed Egyptians from Earth who REALLY like magic, drugs, and religion.

Spoiler: show
Not to sound like a silly billy: But wasn't your character recently punished in Barovia for contraband - I also guess it was over Opium? Is that the reason for this thread? Not trying to start drama or jump the gun.

I've had weird things happen to me in game too, but just roll with that stuff. Unless it someone sending you like tells along the lines of: LOL I OWN YOU HARD BCAZ I HAVE ULTIMATE POWER. That's like a CC issue.

dutchy

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2012, 06:59:33 PM »
It was used as a toothing solution for young babies in rich families, to quiet them -- saving their parents much sleep!



here you go mothers of the world the solution to your sleep deprevation


but tell me apro isnt it intresting that you could have illigal contraband?      i mean people cant see what items are illigal due to most dont know what is imbued with magic and what isnt.
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Budly

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »
P.S.

Something I forgot to mention. The other side of the coin in this is that the pre-1650CR culture gets thrown out with the bathwater. The description of the Opium item in the game essentially describes it as a narcotic with medical secondary effects, but this is a Victorian/20th century perception. The pre-1650CR attitude would be strictly the opposite of this, seeing Opium instead as primarily a medicine with possibly narcotic side-effects.

Are you sure about that? They would see it as medicine?

APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 08:00:43 PM »
Spoiler: show
Not to sound like a silly billy: But wasn't your character recently punished in Barovia for contraband - I also guess it was over Opium? Is that the reason for this thread? Not trying to start drama or jump the gun.

I've had weird things happen to me in game too, but just roll with that stuff. Unless it someone sending you like tells along the lines of: LOL I OWN YOU HARD BCAZ I HAVE ULTIMATE POWER. That's like a CC issue.

Spoiler: show
My character did get into trouble for carrying "contraband", yes. She had plenty on her that could have gotten her into trouble so the overall scene was fine -- I just found it really strange that it was the opium, of all things, that they picked up on first.

So I did roll with it, because if it hadn't been the opium, it might have been the scrolls, or the staves, or the varnishes, etc. etc. :P Heck, just ask Mihas, my character was the most co-operative!

But the reaction to the opium was the one that struck me as odd and anachronistic on an OOC level, so it did motivate me to create this thread.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 08:06:52 PM »
Are you sure about that? They would see it as medicine?

The entire distinction between a medicine and a recreational drug is largely one that arose relatively recently, with the modern approach to medicine. Prior to this, medical knowledge was the domain of a few experts; but for each doctor there was an equal number of quacks. Heck, for centuries they believed leeching and bleeding patients was a good idea!

However, it's a matter of record that opium was used as an anaesthetic and had many medical uses going back to ancient times. Sure, it was also used as a recreational drug then too (usually eaten or drunk when mixed into a kind of tea), but as I said, the explosion into a full-blown narcotic was very much a product of cheap cultivation in India combined with the spread of the practice of smoking it -- both of these were, outside of China, happened during the Victorian times.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 08:09:28 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

dutchy

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 08:13:04 PM »
was a real good and fun scene yes   


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herkles

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 08:14:22 PM »
related to this, I have information on science from Regieme dioblique, a gothic horror/swashbuckler game set around the cut-off date.  Look very closely at the medicine one, it states doctors still used astrology charts, infection was a common killer, the four humors are still believed in. all this while major advances were being made. I thought this might help.

philosphies
Spoiler: show
The Age of Enlightenment is dawning throughout Europe. Humankind is taking its first tentative steps on the road of scientific discovery, attempting to explain the universe in terms beyond those purely of the philosophical and religious. Some of the modes of thought of the age are described below.

Deism: The study of the natural world and its laws, not  dogma  and  doctrine,  proves  the  existence  of God. God created the world, formulated the natural laws, set His creation in motion, and allows it to unfold without direct intervention. Superstition, faith,  angels,  demons,  miracles,  and  magick,  have no place in the world. This belief, while not specifically heretical, does threaten the role of priests.

Dualism: The body and mind are completely separate, neither capable of interacting with the other.
Empiricism:  Acquisition  of  knowledge  through experimentation and direct observation; essentially the  modern  method  of  repeated  experimentation and observation.

Fideism: The belief that logical reasoning and faith are opposites. Religion is an act of faith, and cannot be understood by scientific reasoning.

Induction: Better known as the “educated guess,” induction  takes  observations  and  forms  conclusions based on the evidence. For instance, if a person appears unhappy, the logical conclusion is they are unhappy.

Materialism: The belief that every process can be explained in terms of matter. There is no place for spirits or ephemera in this way of thinking.

Mechanical  Philosophy:  The  physical  world  and everything in it is like a machine obeying the laws of nature. Descartes separated mind and body, believing that the mind had free will, while the body, bound to physical laws, did not.

Occasionalism:  The  belief  that  only  God  causes things to happen. It essentially denies cause and effect—things happen because God makes them happen—predeterminism  taken  to  an  extreme..  God, for  instance,  makes  you  think  about  moving  and then you move.

Rationalism:  Study  through  logical  thought  and deduction rather than experimentation. Mathematics is rational: 2+2 will always equal 4, no matter how many times one observes the equation.

Skepticism:  Historically,  skepticism  is  the  belief that new discoveries will always invalidate existing theories. Thus, all theories must be continually tested against new evidence as it emerges. In essence, a skeptic takes nothing for granted.

Teleology: The explanation of phenomena by the purpose they serve rather than the cause of the phenomena.


Astrology
Spoiler: show
Copernicus challenged millennia of thought by placing the Sun at the center of the solar system (1543). His work has been expanded upon by the likes of Galileo, Tycho Brahe, and Johannes Kepler, the latter using mathematics coupled with observation to prove the planets move in elliptical orbits and at different speeds. Galileo has laid the foundation for later research into gravity, as well as discovering Jupiter’s moons, which supported his heliocentric view of the heavens, and the phases of Venus. Kepler has put forward scientific proof that tides are caused by the moon (a theory first purported by Seleucus in the 2nd century  B.C.),  something  Galileo  disputes  as  nonsense. Hans  

Lippershey,  a  Dutchman, invented the first telescope in 1608, the design of which Galileo improved a year later. But such scientific advances, ones which challenge Biblical accounts of the Earth’s position in the heavens, came at a heavy price—Galileo is currently under house arrest, and Giordano  Bruno  was  burned at the stake  in  1600  as  a heretic for espousing such ideas.


Chemistry and Physics
Spoiler: show
Metals such as zinc, cobalt, an nickel are now used to form alloys. Georg Bauer’s work, De re metallica, lays out a full description of mining, smelting, and metallic chemistry  (1556).  Magnetism  and  electricity  have  been studied, and the theory that the Earth is a giant magnet with its own magnetic field published (1600). Glass-making technology has been improved through the transmission of Italian books on the subject. Microscopes have been around for the better part of 40 years, though they have yet to catch on as scientific tools.

Galileo invented the thermoscope, a crude means of measuring temperature, although the first one to include  a  scale  (thus  constituting  a  thermometer)  won’t  come about  until  Robert  Fludd,  an  English  physician,  math ematician, and occultist, builds one in 1638. The first accurate temperature scale comes with Fahrenheit’s work a century later. Galileo has divided matter into primary quantities, such as shape, size, and mass, and secondary qualities, such as smell, color, and texture, opening the way for new understanding. Galileo’s experiments have also disproved Aristotle’s theories on motion.


Mathematics
Spoiler: show
Decimal  notation  (1585)  has  revolutionized  mathematics, as has the use of symbols in algebra thanks to the  work of the French mathematician Vieta (before this age, words were used)  Trigonometry (1595) has revolutionized not only mathematics but also cartography. Napier has invented logarithmic tables (1614), and the slide rule  was introduced in 1632.



Natural Philosophy
Spoiler: show
After  centuries  of  accepting  phenomena  out  of hand, man is finally beginning to study the universe with  a  methodical,  scientific  approach.  Whether or not this is truly a good thing is yet to be seen. the  invention  of  the  refracting  telescope  in  1608 allowed  mankind  to  gaze  into  the  infinite  heavens, whereupon he discovered several of Jupiter’s moons (by galileo) and the orion nebula (by nicholas de Peiresc). Copernicus published his theory of the solar system in 1543, the year of his death, in which he proposed the  planets  and  stars  orbited  the  sun  in  circular fashion.  tycho  brahe  and  Johannes  Kepler  later went on to refine this by proving the planets moved in  elliptical  orbits.  Kepler  continued  advancing the  field  of  astronomy  through Astronomia  Nova (1609), detailing how the planets move at varying speeds,  and  Harmonice  Mundi  in  1619,  in  which he  propagated  a  relationship  between  music  and astronomy.

galileo  publicly  stated  his  support  for  the  Copernican system in 1597, something giordano bruno repeated three years later. galileo, for his crime, is under house arrest. bruno paid the price for his enlightenment by being burned at the stake. dozens more  mathematicians  and  scientists  are  suffering similar fates. algebra  and  trigonometry  have  been  made  easier by  the  advent  of  letter  symbols,  replacing  the  full words previously used. the decimal point has been invented (1585), thus allowing fractions to be expressed in a different form. logarithms were introduced  in  1614.  mathematicians  produced  a  slide rule in 1632.

magnetism was discovered around 1600, as was the  principal of electricity, though as yet mankind has found no practical applications for these new fields
of science.



Medicine
Spoiler: show
While mankind has made great steps forward in many areas of science, he seems reluctant to let go of his medieval approach to medicine.

The advent of the microscope (1595) has allowed man to study things in more detail then ever thought possible, dissection of human corpses has led to the discovery of the circulatory system (1628), Sanctorius published his study of metabolism in 1615 (in De Medicina Statica), an effective treatment for malaria exists, ligatures are used instead of cauterization during amputations, and rudimentary prosthetic limbs are available.

Yet for all these steps forward, doctors still believe in the existence of the four humours—blood, phlegm, yellow bile, and black bile—the imbalance of which causes diseases and maladies. Leeches are used to draw away excesses of one or more humours, thus bringing the body back into balance.

Even in these more enlightened times, physicians regularly consult astronomical charts when treating patients. Doctors understand the need to keep wounds clean, though the existence of germs is yet unknown. Infection remains a common killer. To further combat illness, patients can visit an apothecary. While some progress is being made in the use of chemicals and compounds, much of an apothecary’s stock comprises ingredients with little practical medicinal value (mercury remains a common ingredient).


Dread

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2012, 08:21:38 PM »
I find it strange that opium is regarded as illegal in most of Barovia by precedent, as well, being a history major myself, but I roll with it, just because player garda have been traditionally regarding it as illegal, as have officials in Dementlieu.

Personally, I'd have it so the opium den didn't exist and it was replaced with an apothecary that sold opium instead, to reflect its legal nature, along with laudanum, and a variety of quack-cures and snake-oils that did absolutely jack.  :lol:

Elfric

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2012, 08:27:46 PM »
Daniel's favorite drink; laudanum <3

"You left the campfire back in the field. The entire grass field is on fire. Smokey the Bear is on the edge of the field, on his knees, sobbing into his hands."

APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2012, 08:32:58 PM »
I find it strange that opium is regarded as illegal in most of Barovia by precedent, as well, being a history major myself, but I roll with it, just because player garda have been traditionally regarding it as illegal, as have officials in Dementlieu.

What's sad about this is that it means there's not much story to be told here of a formation of a Temperance movement or whatever.

Historically, the story of the abolition of the slave trade and of Temperance movements is a fascinating one, because it's the story of grassroot Christian activists forming powerful political lobbies against very strong financial interests. Both the slave trade and the opium trade were very lucrative, and it took considerable effort to turn the law against them.

But unfortunately, that story is already told here on PotM; opium is already illegal. Which is a shame, because personally I'd love to be able to retell it. Frankly, I would really suggest a collective discussion with the player base to "turn back the clock", so to speak, and perhaps offer up an opportunity to explore a subject that's as fascinating as any other in human history.

Quote
Personally, I'd have it so the opium den didn't exist and it was replaced with an apothecary that sold opium instead, to reflect its legal nature, along with laudanum, and a variety of quack-cures and snake-oils that did absolutely jack.  :lol:

The opium den is fine -- just because something is legal doesn't mean it's well-seen or pleasant! Heck, some bars are downright dives.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 08:36:39 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2012, 08:38:23 PM »
Are you sure about that? They would see it as medicine?

I have little doubt in my mind that opium in the time period being discussed would have been seen more in the light of medicine. Everything would have been based off first- and second-hand accounts; no scientific articles that dissected the properties of opium as we know them now, either as a medicine or a narcotic. I think a reasonable assumption for what a medical scholar during this time would think of opium is that it has very potent pain-relieving properties, but if the dosages are not controlled, it will lead to the patient becoming dependent on it, ill should it be taken away. What the average person would think of opium at this point would vary greatly, though I think it is reasonable to say that opium is used to dull pain would be the most common. It would likely be common knowledge opium could be abused, but I do believe the mindset prevalent here would be too much opium can be too much of a good thing, instead of the opposite mindset today.

Given this, however, I think a valid point was made in how much this would actually historically impact a magical setting. If opium was used as a remedy for pain during recovery from an injury, and only the upper class could afford it, something that is present in this setting that would obviously impact opium's popularity as a pain medication would be the presence of healing magics. To which degree is very debatable, but personally, I don't have any problems with the setting's treatment of the legality of opium. Hitting on Barovia and Dementlieu... In the former, I find it very reasonable the Count would outlaw a substance that could draw Barovians away from their misery, and perhaps even becoming something that would hold more power over an addicted individual than fear of the Count. In Dementlieu, I find it less justifiable, but the reason Geiger gave pretty much covers how I would comfortably justify opium being outlawed there. However, common attitudes, I think, could stand to be much more flexible, especially in Dementlieu. In Barovia, if the premise is accepted that the Count would know about opium and its main effects (IMO, a logical premise granted Strahd is a highly intelligent ancient vampire), and it is outlawed based on this, then I think it would follow the majority of Barovians would simply comply out of fear of the Count, but not necessarily have a strong opinion of the matter. Common attitudes in Dementlieu would differ between the upper and lower class, I think. Some of the upper class might indulge from time to time simply because they can and it feels good, without really fearing retribution so long as they aren't blowing smoke in the face of a Gendarme, while others might look down on it as the peasants escape and have a low opinion of it. In the lower class, though, I have trouble thinking the opinion of opium would be anything other than largely favorable.

I'm grateful this has been brought up, because it does annoy me to see smoking opium equated to smoking marijuana, or seeing opium labeled simply as bad, because in this time period, I don't think that would be the case unless a character had strong beliefs regarding opium, or negative experiences with it in the past. I can think of reasons why it may or may not be legal in specific places, so I'm actually quite indifferent on the legality of opium. Attitudes, like the topic title alludes to, are my main concern, and if they're to be played out, I'd like to see the same level of awareness and reason given to opinions on opium as any other matter.

dutchy

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2012, 12:43:10 AM »
*coughs*   

i come from a country where some drugs is allowed *sees all the shocked faces as they figure out dutchy is from holland*

now you all seem to think that when something is legal that you are allowed to have it anywhere with you  WRONG

atleast here in holland where its legal we got the well known coffee shops  you can use there  but basicly not on the street,  you can also buy there   but here comes the kicker   you cant have it on you out on the streets   yes the cops turn a blind eye to it here   but those are the exact laws   that we dont care much for them is a difrant story.

to clarefy im talking about making it legal ingame and the opium den and how it could work.

but my vote would still go for illigal  out of the selfish reason that i have more to do and to find upon ppl during searches.     beside isnt having something illigal more fun then something legal?
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2012, 02:10:50 AM »
Protip: Ravenloft is not the real world. Don't assume that just because something happened at a certain point in Earth's history that it is the same in Ravenloft.

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APorg

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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2012, 03:38:32 AM »
Protip: Ravenloft is not the real world. Don't assume that just because something happened at a certain point in Earth's history that it is the same in Ravenloft.

No offense, but that's an unhelpful comment and I feel that you haven't read my posts. Everyone in this thread knows perfectly well that Ravenloft is not the real world. It remains the fact that it comes off as a very strange setting artifact -- an injection of 20th century moralism into a Gotthic Horror setting, like when PCs start acting like modern people when confronted by the garda in the Outskirts -- with no real visible explanation or cause.

The authenticity of a setting depends on having fluent and sensible causaility: a convincing cause for every effect. Most stuff -- like vampires, ghosts, etc. -- you can get away with waving your hands and saying "It's Magic/Gotthic Horror/Fantasy!" because this is a fantasy setting that we all buy into.

But things like the illegality of drugs are products of deep cultural conflicts in our own world; the history of these things is full, rich and living, something we are still feeling the effects of to this day (e.g. "War on Drugs"). If you wave your hands here, you do your setting a double disfavour: not merely making it slightly less authentic, but also making it impossible to retell a story arc.

This is my core gripe: it's not only less authentic, it's also less interesting that opium is already illegal.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 03:42:04 AM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2012, 12:18:21 PM »
I think your reaching a point that your overthinking it and making it more complex then it is apro. Great info though  neat lil facts
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Re: Opium and pre-1650CR attitudes
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2012, 04:14:25 PM »
This is my core gripe: it's not only less authentic, it's also less interesting that opium is already illegal.

Opium's sister, Belladonna, is highly poisonous and has almost no great medical benefit (the minor cosmetic benefit of dilating lady eyes), and hasn't been rendered illegal which makes it much easier to play with it, do creative things with it, explore the roleplay of it, so I would have to agree that Opium is handicapped because of the oddly prevalent illegality of it.

...omg, the war on drugs is working! j/k.  If I were to recommend a compromise to the outright illegality, I'd say, "well maybe a certain amount of Opium would be allowed for personal use."  And that's just another completely modern idea that pretty much breaks immersion.  You don't really have to prohibit up to a certain amount, because nobody can rightly afford a rare import unless they are rich, right?  The socioeconomic structure of Barovia is prohibitive enough!

In a broader sense of things, the fact that minors play this game makes it a little awkward to tell stories with adult themes like narcotic use.  The Ravenloft rulebooks have less to worry about this, but PoTM is a bit of a different animal; so if the illegality of Opium is the wish of the administration, I respect that completely, especially if it's because of considerations that go out of game.