Author Topic: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con  (Read 3299 times)

Varangian

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Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« on: March 06, 2012, 11:23:22 AM »
This isn't a recent issue and I assume that if I'd searched through more of the forums I would have found the same concern brought up before. However, I'd like to put it forward as a suggestion that the Constitution increase of a Barbarian's  Rage ability could be withdrawn, and replaced instead with a pool of temporary hit-points for the duration of the effect.

The OOC mechanics of it would mean that PCs don't simply die outright when their rage ends should they take considerable damage through the fight. Potentially a Barbarian will lose more than he gains from this switch; the constitution drop will reduce his Fort save for instance.

The rational IC explanation of this would be put down to the berserker ignoring his 'lesser' wounds, instead of taking full HP damage from every little bruise.


Overall, as I play a Barbarian character this may come across as a player looking out for 'his' character, and thats partially true, but I can't be the only player with a Barbarian PC who's hesitant to use what should be an 'empowering' ability, for fear of their PC dying outright from the after-effects.

Purist

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2012, 11:47:10 AM »
The only change that I'd like to see on this would be that the barbarian would never die to a con loss. Maybe make him drop to 1hp? It's acceptable that after one pushing his body to skyhigh limits, can give one an adverse affect, like getting overly exhausted to the point of one not being able to defend oneself. Then dropping to 1, that is becoming vulnerable, is fair imo.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 01:22:01 PM »
If you're going to make a change like that to the barbarian, then you'd probably want to ripple that change out to ever other con buff in the game. (polymorph, endurance, tensers etc. etc. etc.)

I always thought it was neat how barbarians and such could drop when their rage ran out.  It brings to mind a burly barbarian getting completely disembowled and just ignoring it and raging till he's killed the thing that has already "killed" him.  When the addrenaline rush ends, the barbarian flops. :)

(unless, of course, he has a handy-dandy cleric to fix him before he comes down from his high)

Mordch

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 01:40:32 PM »
I don't think it needs to be changed. Part of the charm of the rage is that you can get killed or pass out once it fades. My favorite was having Kayne desperately trying to get healing from Lizuca, and dying due to rage wear off just before she got her spell off.

Exordium

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 01:47:12 PM »
Well, in standard PHB, Barbarians may fall unconscious or even die to the sudden hit point drop. It's part of the design of the feat. :P

And in mythologies there are plenty of stories of berserkers and all kinds of courageous warriors who in the end of the battle collapse from the fatigue and dozens of wounds.

I kinda like it that way!

Varangian

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 01:53:56 PM »
I can understand these points, though a good one was presented by Purist to drop to 1hp instead of dying outright. The mechanics of the game shouldn't make a class 'not fun' to play. Reasons for it being 'not fun' don't come with the double-edged sword nature of the Rage, but with the considerably unfair risk-vs-reward ratio when using it.

Switching to temporary HP, or likening the aftermath of a Barbarian's Rage ability to a self-induced subdual state (KO'd, 1hp) would make using the Rage ability far more attractive than it currently is. I'm confident in saying that no-one wants to play a class with a main ability which instead of being helpful, more or less translates to suicide.

In the case of becoming fatigued etc I'd much rather roleplay that than have it dictated to me though game mechanics 'and' potentially suffer an XP loss at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 01:56:27 PM by Varangian »

HellsPanda

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 03:01:05 PM »
There are plenty of players here who enjoy the risk of the Barbarian class rage, and the fact is not every class is fun for everyone. Perhaps barbarian is the wrong class for you?

Blackhound

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 03:03:13 PM »
Having played a barb and dying to the con wear off here is my 2 fangs: it is fine as it is. please do not change it.

respawnaholic

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2012, 10:44:46 PM »
I can understand these points, though a good one was presented by Purist to drop to 1hp instead of dying outright. The mechanics of the game shouldn't make a class 'not fun' to play. Reasons for it being 'not fun' don't come with the double-edged sword nature of the Rage, but with the considerably unfair risk-vs-reward ratio when using it.

Switching to temporary HP, or likening the aftermath of a Barbarian's Rage ability to a self-induced subdual state (KO'd, 1hp) would make using the Rage ability far more attractive than it currently is. I'm confident in saying that no-one wants to play a class with a main ability which instead of being helpful, more or less translates to suicide.

In the case of becoming fatigued etc I'd much rather roleplay that than have it dictated to me though game mechanics 'and' potentially suffer an XP loss at the same time.

The risk vs reward seems pretty fair.....for a brief time you get a bonus to will saves, a bonus to AB, a bonus to damage, and a bonus to HP vs...a penalty to Ac and the RISK of dieing if your hit points fall too low. The risk of dieing would come into play alot more infrequently than all of the bonuses a barbarian gets. Basically poping rage allows a barbarian to kill things faster...the faster you kill things the less chance they can bring you to a state where you need to worry about -0- hit points.

As far as the fatigue rules go...that was just one of those things someone came up with in the nieve belief it would actually stop people from running everywhere. Its annoying as hell, but its one of the 'features' of the server.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 10:47:29 PM by respawnaholic »

Juice

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 09:32:15 PM »
I can understand these points, though a good one was presented by Purist to drop to 1hp instead of dying outright. The mechanics of the game shouldn't make a class 'not fun' to play. Reasons for it being 'not fun' don't come with the double-edged sword nature of the Rage, but with the considerably unfair risk-vs-reward ratio when using it.

Switching to temporary HP, or likening the aftermath of a Barbarian's Rage ability to a self-induced subdual state (KO'd, 1hp) would make using the Rage ability far more attractive than it currently is. I'm confident in saying that no-one wants to play a class with a main ability which instead of being helpful, more or less translates to suicide.

In the case of becoming fatigued etc I'd much rather roleplay that than have it dictated to me though game mechanics 'and' potentially suffer an XP loss at the same time.

I agree its often hard making the choice to use rage because when you fall to near death while raging you will most defiantly get knocked out and any lower you do the funny blargh and die. Having the temp hit points is a good idea and many barbarians wont be frightened about hitting that rage button, also if it was going to be changed for the barbarian it would be wise to make the same change to the polymorph and the other spells mentioned.

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EberronBruce

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 12:44:42 AM »
You should ask Ragnall about how many times rage has saved his bacon, I should say our bacon when we used to adventure together.

dark_majico

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 02:55:47 PM »
If you're going to make a change like that to the barbarian, then you'd probably want to ripple that change out to ever other con buff in the game. (polymorph, endurance, tensers etc. etc. etc.)

That would be true if they altered barb rage then they should in theory do something with any CON increase, spell/ spell like ability, and I think that would be going too far. I think we should accept the risks when it comes to any constitution increase, the benefit of extra hit points balances the risk.

I disagree also that this small risk of dying somehow makes the class "not fun to play".

HellsPanda

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 03:31:20 PM »
I repeat not every class is suited to every player

EberronBruce

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2012, 10:13:34 PM »
If you don't like the rage how it is or the other class features but want to play melee class. I suggest a fighter class. You don't get the rage, fast movement, ect. But you do get a but load of feats which can make up for the rage. Like toughness.

BalorVale

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2012, 06:38:15 PM »
A change would be nice, But its not really a game-breaking glitch, The class is very powerful and their strength is insane melee damage, I agree sometime you roll the dice and roll 15 1's in a row and luck just isn't on your side, but the class is taken from the PnP version and it sticks pretty close to it (Besides the Lack of DR) Just choose when it is ok to use the rage, I reccomend when at full health at the beggining of a tough fight with you and your buddies, make sure someone has a potion to throw your way should you go down. Be careful, the class requires prior planning and a little bit of luck.

HellsPanda

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 02:15:23 AM »
Actually its exactly like its 3.0 version, it was slightly modified for 3.5. Among them moving DR to a lower level

Sharauvyn

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2012, 11:45:08 AM »
As a player of a barbarian multiclass, I'd say the only time it's inappropriate for the character to die when rage runs out is when the damage done is subdual damage. If that one glitch could be fixed, the function of barbarian rage would be perfect.

Juice

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Re: Barbarian Rage: Con' Con
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 01:44:03 AM »
As a player of a barbarian multiclass, I'd say the only time it's inappropriate for the character to die when rage runs out is when the damage done is subdual damage. If that one glitch could be fixed, the function of barbarian rage would be perfect.

Second this.
Subdual is ment to be like "training" you wrapping you blades with cloth as to not kill and the rage running out during subdual seems a bit pointless

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