Author Topic: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon  (Read 5624 times)

APorg

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Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« on: February 24, 2012, 01:43:08 PM »
Played through this dungeon recently. Our party consisted of:

- level 13/14 Paladin/Divine Champion
- level 12 Paladin (who subsequently dropped)
- level 12 Wizard
- level 9 Cleric

It was fairly tough going against the Nessian Warhounds, simply because their numbers and nasty crits means they'll get some lucky hits in eventually.

But the XP was pretty lousy given the challenge -- I think the level 14 paladin was getting no XP. The loot didn't really justify it either, and perhaps worst of all, it all gets a bit tedious and repetitive round about the third "big area". It's just not really all that fun or rewarding.

It's a shame, because it's a massive dungeon -- with that much effort spent making it, one feels it ought to have more draw. But it's just not a very appealing dungeon at the moment.

Could I suggest it being looked at to adjust the risk-reward ratio?
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Sharauvyn

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 01:55:41 PM »
I was in the above mentioned party also.  This is a very small detail, perhaps, but I went in there once solo with another character just to see what is in there.  Once I went in, I found you can't go out the way you came in.  This is fine, but might I suggest an option that comes up in a dialogue box on entry, something like this:

"The rope you are climbing down comes to an end a short distance above the floor beneath. The drop will be harmless, but you will have to find a different way out. Do you wish to proceed?

"Yes.
"No."

That way, a person who is out exploring won't be suddenly faced with a choice between logging out in the dungeon and respawning because they had the "no exit" surprise sprung on them without warning like this.

I actually really like the area, but I have to agree that "0 xp" isn't really appropriate for a bunch of monsters that almost wipe your party.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 02:00:31 PM »
I'm pretty sure I added a sign near the well that warns of the danger.

I have no idea why you're not getting XP, that has nothing to do with the dungeon or its design. It could be an issue with your character or the XP system in general.

I plan on adding herb/resource spawns down there now that the tileset is supported by the system.

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APorg

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 02:12:50 PM »
I have no idea why you're not getting XP, that has nothing to do with the dungeon or its design. It could be an issue with your character or the XP system in general.

The whole party was getting very little XP altogether. Perhaps it was due to the nature of the "mobs"?
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APorg

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 02:36:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure I added a sign near the well that warns of the danger.

[snip]

I plan on adding herb/resource spawns down there now that the tileset is supported by the system.

Couple more points!

There is a sign at the entrance, yes, but I think that what will surprise most explorers isn't just the danger level -- which is pretty high, as discussed -- but also the length of the dungeon, the fact that you need high Search to complete it, and that it's a "one way" dungeon -- you can't exit through the entrance.

To successfully complete it requires a well-balanced party and a few hours of dungeon-crawling. That's not a problem per se, but given that the only way you can leave the dungeon is by completing it (without resorting to OOC measures or calling for a DM), it therefore relies on keeping that well-balanced party together, without any OOC interruptions, for a few hours.

It just strikes me that if you can get such a party together, there are many much more fun and rewarding dungeons to complete than the Greater Catacombs -- and if something goes wrong OOC and somebody has to leave, at least you can leave the dungeon as a group.

In other words, I don't think a "one way" dungeon is a bad idea per se, but I think it's a bad idea to make a very long one that relies on having a well-tuned group together for a long time -- especially for so little reward.

Oh... there already are herbs down there, by the way.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 02:41:17 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 02:42:06 PM »
I'm pretty sure I added a sign near the well that warns of the danger.

The sign says something like, "Danger - enter at your own risk."  Which ... in all honesty, doesn't really set the area apart from anywhere else in Barovia.  It does not, however, warn of the specific danger that you won't be able to get back up the rope.  Most adventuring areas are indeed dangerous, but you normally can exit the same way you got in.  The part that I was talking about was some way of seeing that you won't get out the same way you went in before you commit to entering. In the case of the character I took down there solo, logic would dictate that one would be able to tell you can't climb back up before you drop off the rope, and had my character noticed this the time I went in solo, there is no way on Earth she would have dropped into an unknown area that she would be stuck in.  Key words: "... that she would be stuck in."  It just kind of felt like the game system was making a critical decision for my character instead of leaving it for me to RP.  It also was rather discouraging to the idea of exploring new areas, because what if I get stuck in those places without warning, too?

And about xp, I was getting xp for some of the monsters, but not for others.  At level 14 and backed by a party, they weren't the hardest things to beat in the world, but they weren't exactly gremishkas, either.

I like the one-way dungeon as an oddity.  I would just like the opportunity to turn around before dropping off a rope. Now that I know the area, I won't get fooled again.  But ... for those who don't know the area, I think it's only fair to give the chance to turn around after realizing the rope is short.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 02:45:05 PM »
I have no idea why you're not getting XP, that has nothing to do with the dungeon or its design. It could be an issue with your character or the XP system in general.

The whole party was getting very little XP altogether. Perhaps it was due to the nature of the "mobs"?
I may have a theory on that... the calculation of challenge ratings of monster groups is quite screwed on the server. That was discussed a few times in the past and tweaked to some degree, but it is far from being solved.

Large groups of monsters - even of a quite low CR compared to party members - eventually become a real threat. In DnD this effect is not perfectly solved, but the mechanism works better than what i still suspect to be implemented in the NWN engine.
Don't hang me for the exact numbers being wrong, but the effect is roughly the following:
DnD: 10 opponents of maybe level 4 might be treated as a single CR 8 encounter, which would be rewarding for a level 8 party of 4 characters.
POTM/NWN: it seems that they are calculated as 10 level 4 encounters with a slight number-induced XP-boost (-> Soren). XP-wise totally ridiculous for a level 8 party, but still a challenge.

Maybe someone with a deeper understanding of the calculation method can falsify/verify that?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 03:15:23 AM by Thoraion »
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Sharauvyn

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 02:50:02 PM »
I just want to say this about the sign because I think it's funny. :) I didn't think the sign at the well was posted by DM Blue. I thought it was posted by some scaredy cat Barovian. :)

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 03:17:34 PM »
Again, let me be clear: any problems you have in getting XP are unrelated to the dungeon. Dungeons don't determine your XP. XP is determined by a script firing when a creature dies, and it is then stored in a database file related to your character. All creatures in the module use the same script when they die.

So, there's only a few things that could cause this:

1. someone altered the monsters in question so they don't fire the death script (unlikely)
2. There's some sort of newly introduced bug in the death script
3. Lag is causing the script to fire much later than it should, delaying any possible xp messages
4. There's a bug in your character or your character's XP database file

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airengale

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 05:36:17 PM »
I'd like to say, it was an interesting and challenging dungeon, but I have some feedback. I was part of that group metioned above, and another problem I had besides those mentioned already were that I could find no lore in the dungeon, which would have helped keep it interesting.

Around the village there are stories that have weight to them, and they can be discovered through dungeoning. I had a lot of questions ICly and OOCly about the catacombs beneith the Village, and it was disappointing when I couldn't learn much of anything. During some exploring, all I found was repetitive trap after trap and three different enemies.

Now, I'm not sure if there was lore to be found, by lore I'm speaking about maybe a journal, statue, tomb, etc. with a description that has some history to the dungeon, because it was a very large dungeon, but what I saw could be better.

I love the concept going on there. The dread that one receives ICly and OOCly when they find out there is no way back is very exciting, and the enemies were interesting and new. But, I feel there needs to be some changes.

I have only been there once, but I would like to go there again. As it looks now, it's not a very alluring dungeon.

Three changes I'd like to see:
  • Add flavor to the dungeon by adding lore.
  • There are traps everywhere. Either change the types of traps, or put fewer traps but they become more devastating.
  • There needs to be a greater variety of encounters. The large portion of the dungeon had the same three encounters, which made for a predictable and boring experience.

I'd give more input, but we were unable to complete the dungeon.


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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 05:59:32 PM »
The dungeon was taken from the old PC game Strahd's Possession. It didn't have any lore or background in that game save as a sort of proving ground for the Keepers of the Black Feather to trust your characters. As that's not really feasible as a reusable dungeon, I dropped the Keepers aspect. Everything else, from the monsters to the traps to the keys to the puzzles is lifted directly from that game.

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Badelaire

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 06:00:19 PM »
Well the whole point of that well dungeon in Strahd's Possession was to meet the *SPOILER* so you could get the *SPOILER* needed to read Petra's *SPOILER*. [Nod nod]

EDIT: God damnit it Blue, pipped me to the post button!!

The skeleton cave, the werewolf cave near it, well, ML church vestibule and vault all featured in that game. There's little nods to it here and there. Don't expect to be getting the Holy Symbol of Ravenkind at the end of it all though! >.>
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 06:03:19 PM by Badelaire »

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 06:07:45 PM »
I did sort of add some placeables to make it seem as if it might have been part of some sort of smuggling operation that was annihilated and shut down (presumably by Strahd), and that the wraiths and revenants are the former bandits/brigands/smugglers.

Alternatively, it could have been an old Terg base from the occupation, with the undead being Tergs.

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airengale

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 06:35:00 PM »
The dungeon was taken from the old PC game Strahd's Possession. It didn't have any lore or background in that game save as a sort of proving ground for the Keepers of the Black Feather to trust your characters. As that's not really feasible as a reusable dungeon, I dropped the Keepers aspect. Everything else, from the monsters to the traps to the keys to the puzzles is lifted directly from that game.

I see that Strahd's Possession was quite an old game, and to hear that the enemies and traps were taken directly from there is interesting. I'm certain you can spice the dungeon up a bit, at least with the traps.

It's obvious the goal of the dungeon cannot be used, but it can be modified. As you said, you tried to have it seem as though there was a smuggling operation, but I don't think that's enough to have it merely seem. If the goal of all those dungeons were to eventually retrieve the Holy Symbol of the Ravenkind, then I think there should be hints added to it's whereabouts in this dungeon like there are in others. Honestly I could not grasp what the history of the place was, and now I know I could never have figured it out unless I was told the above.

It saddens me to hear that this dungeon has near to no purpose, being that you could not implement the Keepers of the Black Feather's quest lines, but if it can be revamped and better shaped for this server, then I believe it can be a very exciting dungeon.

If nothing else, add better loot. Otherwise, I see no point to it rather than a husk of what it could have been.

P.S. That dungeon would have pertinent to my character who went there, if the original story remained.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 06:42:46 PM by airengale »


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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 06:49:43 PM »
Anyway, I can certainly add to the loot.

Are the nessian warhounds too much? I can try to add an in-between spawn

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airengale

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 07:03:34 PM »
Anyway, I can certainly add to the loot.

Are the nessian warhounds too much? I can try to add an in-between spawn

I would say the warhounds were a challenge, though welcomed. The in-between spawn would be a good add. I couldn't tell if it was a high spawn or not, but I see the dungeon itself being around a level 10-12. My group was mostly made of the higher end, and we did well until someone had to leave half way through.


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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 07:22:48 PM »
Currently the dungeon supports a two-tier spawn system.

For example, low spawn is normal hellhounds, high spawn is Nessian warhounds. It's quite a gap in CR, but I was trying to avoid adding new monsters until we've got the palette under control.

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airengale

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 07:29:24 PM »
Then yes, it was decent for a high spawn, appropriate for our levels, so No they weren't too much. And, yes, there needs to be an in-between. I believe that will keep things interesting.


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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 07:44:23 PM »
Yo!  I'm the guy who dropped midway through (power outage in neighborhood KO'd my introwebs until about an hour ago.)

I want to clarify, we were getting "some" XP, that was clear because one of our members who was rreeeaaaaalllllyyyyy close to level did get enough to tip them over.  So XP was gained.  It just...wasn't much.  I mean, clearing two or three packs of warhounds, two or three packs of revenants, and then dealing with a handful of evolved ghosties only got my 12 a "You haven't been entirely idle."

Those revs have a +20TH, that's no joke, the xp reward for the challenge wasn't nearly in line imo.  It's a shame because I'd been itching to go there and fight different kinds of undead (skeletons, zombies, vampires [yawn]) and honestly, right before I dropped i told aprogressivist how excited I was to be there because I'd been eager to explore the place.  I don't particularly care about the loot myself since I tend to break everything in chests anyways, but for the challenge I'm pretty sure we would have gotten more xp running ants or skeleton lords (which were easier imo.)
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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 10:12:37 PM »
I think the issue is that the apparent CR is way too low for the actual difficulty of the mobs in the dungeon. If I recall Juju Zombie Champions and Skeleton Lords are higher in difficulty 'rating' that what is found in the well, despite being the opposite.



vampires [yawn]

Vampires are a joke because the dungeon is touched five times a day on average, and never lets it reach its 'true' spawn potential. (Most people hit it before its even 50%, try fighting hordes of Elites back with Matriarch's and Blaspheme's.)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 10:16:41 PM by Rhymenoceros »

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 10:29:05 PM »
I think the issue is that the apparent CR is way too low for the actual difficulty of the mobs in the dungeon. If I recall Juju Zombie Champions and Skeleton Lords are higher in difficulty 'rating' that what is found in the well, despite being the opposite.
Hmm I hadn't thought of that. Usually I just let the toolset calculate the CR. I could try adjusting it for the revenants.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 10:44:08 PM »
A little variety in the spawns would make a real difference.  I ventured in once but never returned due to the repetitive nature of the critters that spawn in there.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2012, 11:06:09 PM »
I think the issue is that the apparent CR is way too low for the actual difficulty of the mobs in the dungeon. If I recall Juju Zombie Champions and Skeleton Lords are higher in difficulty 'rating' that what is found in the well, despite being the opposite.
Hmm I hadn't thought of that. Usually I just let the toolset calculate the CR. I could try adjusting it for the revenants.

If I remember right, Skeleton's are roughly 13 on the toolset, while Revenant's are only around 10; I think these are closer, if not more difficult than skeletons.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2012, 11:18:12 PM »
It was actually the Nessian warhounds that caused us to have a character die, as far as I could tell.  The area effect of the breath weapons just stack up with each other, because the things in the third row back still hit you with fire.  I thought the challenge level was great, and if anything, perhaps a little lighter than I would have liked to see, given we were still able to make headway with one warrior and two casters.  But no, the XP was definitely not consumate to the risk. And yes, greater variety would have made things more interesting.

If you ask me, you wouldn't have to go hog wild mixing things up on the variety side.  All you'd really have to do is sprinkle in, say, one caster that throws dispels from the back of a pack of hounds. Then three fights later, some fighter type humanoid-ish thing with, say, the same AB and AC as the revenants, but four times the HP, but only one of them. Then four fights later, a pair of sneak attacking revenants that come at the party through the walls from behind, with just enough AB and sneak attack damage to get your attention, but not overwhelming.  As in, just sprinkle in some little touches, as opposed to making it a dungeon with three more monster types that appear all over.

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Re: Village of Barovia -- Greater Catacombs dungeon
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2012, 11:28:53 PM »
Any new monsters will be variations of what's already there. Trap types aren't changing either. I'll definitely look into the loot and CRs though.

Anyway, for anyone interested, these videos are of the dungeon in Strahd's Possession (beware, though, it will spoil the solution of the dungeon if you want to figure it out on your own):

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN4baXbe7Ic[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alw5gqHT47E[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8-yebsnU4w[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEN08gFdQYs[/youtube]
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdJzxx_u978[/youtube]

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