Higher levels clearing lower level content

[BalorVale]

I believe these are the top reasons outskirts is so popular;

1. Easy access to ML temple i.e Free Healing and Tonics.

2. Lots of low levels start there so plenty of fresh RP.

3. The two largest Factions are stationed in Vallaki, the Garda, And most of the Red Vardo Traders.

4. About a five minute walk to any dungeon lvls 2-11

5. Easy access to crafting stations.

6. Barkskin Potions.....need I say more?

7. It is easy to feel very powerful as a high level when surrounded by low level players.

I think if we ignore reason 7 and give the Village and Har'Akir some or all of these perks people would be more then happy to move away from Vallaki, problem is; Everything is so gosh darn convinient in Vallaki, not saying make it more inconvinient, just make other places have something that makes them special, like Har'Akir has items that have 5 charges of stoneskin in the Temple of Harvest, something to add more atmospheric flavor and make it worth the danger to strike into these foriegn lands. Catch more flies with honey then vinegar.

[Miuo]

Barkskin potions can already be made through herbalism. I still recommend a cart system to other areas, to allow ease of access to more places, which i think would help increases player activity.

[Thoraion]

Uhm.... its not hard to figure out how to one shot kill things at low level.

And there really is no reason for any mid-high level to enter the ML crypts for example, the Viccar's caps grow elsewhere, or they can easily hire people to bring them Viccar's caps

Funny that you mention that - i just thought about this moments ago and came to the exact opposite conclusion.

I can think of... 5 places in barovia where viccars caps grow.
One requires a party and provides a medium harvest of caps.
One is easily doable, but provides just a little harvest due to the size.
Same for another, which is the most remote one.
Another one ist quite a way off and provides the smalles harvest.
Well, and then there are the ML crypts. Large and quite a good harvest.

And that is only viccars caps (well, and grave mold and ghost caps).

The ML crypts are EXTREMELY attractive as a source for crypt mushrooms.

Besides that, i noticed recently that there is another factor that makes soloing in such dungeaons almost essential for herbalists.
It is almost impossible to buy herbs for independent herbalists.
They are either collected for friends (solution: get low level friends. Ha-Ha)...
or sold to the vardo. With the current competition there is almost no alternative to make excessive herb-runs at all - including dungeons.

And in case you are not aware of that - it is not really realistic to assume that a group would be willing in a long journey that is mostly focussed on herbs.

Sidenote: Where the heck did the grove with the dread treants move to??? Or is the transition bugged?

[HellsPanda]

You just need to hang and be available and people will gather for you.

[Thoraion]

You just need to hang and be available and people will gather for you.

sometimes i really wonder whether you actually believe what you write... or maybe it is my perception of reality that is flawed.

[HellsPanda]

okay, fine you actually need to inform people your buying, aside from that you only need patience and gp and people will bring you herbs

[Jay]

You just need to hang and be available and people will gather for you.

sometimes i really wonder whether you actually believe what you write... or maybe it is my perception of reality that is flawed.

If you can't put your point across respectfully then don't bother posting.

[Tyras]

Most of the new players have a few sources of income.  The Ratter or turning in mink pelts.  I was over the moon when I found that the Red Vardo bought herbs.  I had sold an entire bag of viccars caps to the Petre at the Vistani camp prior to that because I had no idea what they did and I was tired of them taking up space.  Had I known that I could sell them for any sort of decent coin I would have happily collected them for higher level players.  I sell my herbs on a regular basis now, and it has allowed my character to gain a foothold in the world.

Rather than take opportunities from lower level players by destroying the content available to them, offer them opportunity instead.  Make your propisition known and RP commisioning a group of players to bring you back what you need.  It may not be as quick a process, but it will be more rewarding.

[kanedellesk]

The problem with getting a group of lowbies to go and gather is that they know, IC or OOC, that the Vardo will be paying better. They are a business, though, and you can't blame them for using Wal-Mart tactics on the competition. But say you are a mid to high level, and you hang around the outskirts trying to get people to gather for you, then you get called "arm crossing, tree leaning ###," on the forums. Go get herbs where you can viably survive and not use more tonics than you can make, you're a "dungeon stealing douchebag." Its a Catch 22. My advice? If you want to craft either join the Vardo or have a large group of OOC friends that'll just give you herbs.

By the way, this herb gathering discussion is very off topic of the original post. Could a moderator do a split on the topic perchance?

[HellsPanda]

Actually its not, since its one of the primary reasons why Higher levels clear low level dungeons like the ML crypts in the Outskirts

[Seniies]

I vote the well dungeon under barovia get viccar only herb spawns

[Sharauvyn]

I think it's pretty clear the herb issue would be solved if one could gather more herbs by going through a high level dungeon than they spent in potions doing it.  If it costs five potions of cure critical wounds to go through a dungeon, then I see two choices. Either we make at least, say, seven viccar's cap spawn points in the dungeon, or we accept the fact that people who want to adventure through this dungeon and can make their own potions are going to prepare for it by collecting viccar's caps in lower level dungeons.  I don't see what else there is to say about that.  Solving one's need for healing potions otherwise leads one to spending thousands of gold unnecessarily on herbs, competing for materials with one of the few factions that can force-perm people (and have, over competition), and so on.  As someone who doesn't even spend much time in lower level dungeons on my mid-level characters for a number of reasons ("low level" being the Baratak vampire crypt and werewolf lair, in my mind), I'd much rather tune out some discussion on the forum than deal with those in-game influences.  

If you want a given behavior from a number of people short of "all," then ask people to be considerate. If you want the behavior from "all," then reward that behavior.

[Tyras]

Actually its not, since its one of the primary reasons why Higher levels clear low level dungeons like the ML crypts in the Outskirts

Agreed.  Higher levels that destroy the creatures and take the treasures also taking the herbs, and some of the herbers are also taking out the monsters (as they can't gather herbs in peace in most places) and sometimes taking the treasures.  The intent might be different, but the results are often the same.

As for the Vardo paying better, well that's business, but there are still ways around it.  The vardo buy all herbs.  If you're looking for something in paticular like Viccars cap, maybe offfer a deal to green adventurers.  

"I'll trade you X herb for your viccars caps and pay you X ammount."  You get your viccars cap, the player gets their herb that they can still sell to the vardo and a little bit of coin for the trouble.

I know it's easier just to go and wipe out a dungeon or a cave for what you might need, but it's detracting from the game.  As a player I don't want to pay what I don't neccessarily have to, but as a character (who's hours only last six minutes RT) my time might be more valuable that to be bothered to dirty my boots with the dust of enemies beneath my skill, or maybe see it as a helping hand to somebody recently torn from their loved ones and homes by the cold uncaring mists.  It may cost some coin, it may take a bit more time and some effort to RP commisioning the work, but we're all here to enjoy the RP not to simply grind, farm, hack and slash.

[Seniies]

truth be told players would rather sell herbs to people that are right in front of them, cause there not always a vardo member online and a lot do so hate to pack them around.

[HellsPanda]

And the difference is rarely that much.

[DM Panic]

I didn't know Viccar's Caps were that popular.  I will have to start using them as quest rewards.

[Sharauvyn]

I didn't know Viccar's Caps were that popular.  I will have to start using them as quest rewards.

Of what you can find in lower level dungeons, they are.  As I said earlier, not to speak for other people, but I really don't go into lower level dungeons much. (Maybe once every other week on each of two characters.)  But when I do, it's for one of three reasons. 1 - To rescue a lower level party that wiped.  (Or otherwise in response to a direct request for help from lowbies) 2 - To pick up viccar's caps to make potions for use in higher level dungeons. 3 - To gather skeleton knuckles for ML tonics, for use in higher level dungeons.  2 and 3 being because for every, say, group of juju zombie champions I kill in the ML crypt in Barovia, it costs 3-5 ML tonics to heal up, and I get around 7 knuckles, which is 1.4 tonics worth of knuckles. The risk to reward ratio on healing supplies in such places is simply silly.  In my experience, you simply *must* acquire healing supplies somehow from lower level areas. The only question is whether you are going to spend 1200 gold per bag on them after doing a few hours of searching and waiting to get them, or just go in and get them yourself.

Concering one of the other areas that were mentioned, the sewers under Vallaki, high levels go through there because of the locked gates, and the rats attack you, resulting in self defense.  I've actually wiped out three or four of them at a time because one of them triggered an AoO when it ran by to get away even though I didn't attack it, and then between multiple attacks per round and cleave, taken the rest of them out automatically. All without drawing a weapon.   

[Sharauvyn]

Addendum to my previous post:

I don't mind having the risk to reward ratio on healing supplies being as it is, with people being content to have high levels do their own gathering in low level dungeons. I also don't mind having higher level dungeons give more reward on healing capabilities, and the community expect higher level characters to stay out of low level areas. I'd just like to see the server community pick one and stick with it.

[Thoraion]

I didn't know Viccar's Caps were that popular.  I will have to start using them as quest rewards.

They are an essential ingredient for one of the most-used potions.
And as opposed to the other ingredients, this ingredient only grows in a limited number of dungeons.

This affects a few other potions as well, but those are not that desperately needed in such amounts as is the cure critical wounds potion.

So the problem is deeply rooted in the design and i fear most measures taken will only have one effect:
Even less potions available if said measures can not be ignored

Besides that - i can onls set my signature under any posting Sharauvyn posted here so far as well

Concering one of the other areas that were mentioned, the sewers under Vallaki, high levels go through there because of the locked gates, and the rats attack you, resulting in self defense.  I've actually wiped out three or four of them at a time because one of them triggered an AoO when it ran by to get away even though I didn't attack it, and then between multiple attacks per round and cleave, taken the rest of them out automatically. All without drawing a weapon.   

Offtopic: Now add this effect as well... you have run through a whole map of the sewers and have about 30 rats at your heels when that single AoO happens... and by chance, you also have great cleave. -> apocalyptic sewing machine. Have you ever seen 30 attacks in 7 seconds? Yes, that rocks :-)

[Aahz]

You just need to hang and be available and people will gather for you.

Those with limited time to play will not be able to do that. If a person only has an hour and a half to play what is going to look more attractive? Standing around hoping that someone will happen by and be willing to sell to you or do you go around and have a look for yourself (you know, actually DO something).

[Honoun]

None of my characters do any crafting, didn't make sense for them to do so from a IC perspective so they don't. Anyway I was not aware of the ingredient ratios in dungeons. That said from reading this thread if viccar's caps are an essential ingredient for a fairly potent cureing tonic (cure critical wounds no less) why is it availible in lowbie dungeons at all? If it were me I would restrict it's locations to mid to high level dungeons. Either that or vastly increase the number that spawn on those high level dungeons and only have a really small amount in lowbie dungeons and I do mean smalll... two or three tops Well ok maybe four

This way farming the lowby dungeons is not productive enough for the high level chars to bother with. Thus they won't be or at the very least will not be bothered with going to them as often.

Personly I'd like Cure Light Wounds added to NPC vendors. Asta don't need them she heals herself, Bupi thinks collecting knuckles is just icky, and Kira wouldn't touch a skele or zombie with a ten foot pole. So no ML tonics for any of them unless someone is kind enough to share... Doesn't happen often I can tell you. Uh oh, I think I went off topic... Meh, oh well.

[Thoraion]

None of my characters do any crafting, didn't make sense for them to do so from a IC perspective so they don't. Anyway I was not aware of the ingredient ratios in dungeons. That said from reading this thread if viccar's caps are an essential ingredient for a fairly potent cureing tonic (cure critical wounds no less) why is it availible in lowbie dungeons at all?

That's due to how the recipes work. If you remove them from those dungeons, Cure medium wounds potions will also not be craftable by lowbies any more in months outside spring

[Honoun]

I hate to say it then, but that was a bit of bad designing consideration right there.




Please don't hate me 

[Sharauvyn]

There is a second issue that the OP brought up about bad form in high level characters "adventuring past" a lower level party.  The other issue is the higher level character going right past the lower level characters with no interaction or role playing at all, and denying them the chance to participate in clearing the dungeon.  I know I've run into lower level groups in the ML crypt on my mid level character and then joined in with them, joined their party, and followed their group leadership, then continued to take viccar's caps and skeleton knuckles.  This never drew a complaint, and often gets comments of, "Wow, I'm glad you were here, we never could have cleared this crypt without you."  I would imagine that if a less friendly high level character showed up and made a hostile RP encounter out of it and intimidated the lower level party out of the dungeon, at least they'd have an RP encounter, if not the loot from the rest of the dungeon. MPC's routinely get thanks on the, "Thank you for the positive RP experience" thread for conducting RP encounters that result in anything from a retreat to a full party wipe. I don't see why any other higher level character couldn't give the lower level party an RP experience that would more than compensate for their losses in XP and loot when the higher level character took the dungeon over on them. 

[Thoraion]

Sharauvyn: Yes, again.
Honoun: Yes, as well.

Though, a simple solution for the herb issue is at hand.
The usual community policy of prohibiting certain behaviour has no effect - why should it, since it does not adress the real issues and just adds annoyance.

So back to the reasons for higher levels harvesting herbs in lowbie-dungeons (one issue at a time).

Those dungeaons are close to the other areas where herbs that are required for absolutely essential potions grow.
This is a main reason for high level herbalists to actually come to the outskirts. But also those who are no herbalists and need potions - but here are the ones who can provide the potions (besides the vardo, but that CAN't be the solution), so sooner or later, almost everybody comes back.

Even if the viccars caps disappear from the ML crypts, there are still all the other herbs that grow close to vallaki. So there is still a major reason to come here - and once high levels are in that area, they do something there. Just not to be bored - and that may lead to frustrated lowbies.

So how to move high levels away from their best source for high level potions? Here we have a central issue...
Provide them a way to make potions of similar power somewhere else
- without the necessity to return to vallaki
- with an advantage that makes that location not only comparable, but even better for them.

This may be achieved by single or preferably several of the following measures:
- a herb that replaces two ingredients at once in a recipe with an increased DC for that recipe
- seasonal independency (though this may do more harm than good... i am not entirely sure here)
- the absolute MUST HAVE: Any herb available in this place needs to be available at low risk. See Sharauvyns comments.

A dungeon that consumes about as many potions of a certain type as the ingredients available there allow to produce is a ridiculously bad deal compared to just paying vallaki a visit.

Encouragement. Not punishment.