Author Topic: Higher levels clearing lower level content  (Read 30074 times)

Tyras

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
Higher levels clearing lower level content
« on: February 23, 2012, 09:56:26 AM »
I am only a recent addition to this wonderful server.  For the most part I am having a great time, but there is an issue that has caused me some concern.  As a lower level character my options for grouping up and clearing content are limited to the areas near Vallaki.  The Crypts, the Sewers, the beetle lair and the various caves in nearby areas.  There have been many times that the band of adventurers I am with have been in one of these areas pushing back against the villians within only to have a higher level player blow past us and solo the rest of the content in the area, loot the treasure and move on to the next cave to do the same.  

That seems to me to be more akin to gold farming than actual adventure or RP.  It takes from the lower level players an opportunity to challenge themselves and to generate some good RP along the way.  Sure players could ride the coat tails of higher level players and even follow them to higher level content, but the experience (not XP) is not the same.

If you find yourself so powerful as to breeze through a cave or a dungeon by yourself, it's probably time to move on to more challenging areas.  You're hurting the players that need those spots for leveling and to learn how to interact as a member of a party.  If solo play is what you crave I heard Diablo is a great game for that.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 11:14:01 AM by Tyras »

Miuo

  • Discord: Miuo
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2131
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 11:29:52 AM »
This can be said for almost all areas sadly, with a high player base you will likely more often then not be crawling over people for a dungeon. what would be medium level chars feel such as well when competing with even higher up levels, and become forced to target areas below their own level. A vicious circle that really isn't anyone fault. Though i do agree blowing past people already in a place is poor etiquette (and i believe against the rules?).

If a place is not previously claimed by a party i say have at it. All i can really recommend is wait 15 mins, role play or craft and then go back to said area since it will likely of reset by then.

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6598
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 11:31:40 AM »
It will reset at a low spawn, yes.
To get a good spawn might depending on the dungeon take anything from an hour or two to a whole day

DM Panic

  • Long Break
  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 11:40:41 AM »
Yes indeed.  It does take an hour or two to a whole day.

I'm in the mindset that when you go off on adventures by yourself, its pretty selfish, because you're taking away an experience (and XP) that could've been shared by a group (You actually get less xp by soloing, so it's also counter productive).  I realize soloing is a preferable alternative for some, since sometimes groups are clunky, and not everyone works well with everyone else, but keep in mind that these areas are designed for groups, and usually when you are soloing, you are soloing areas designed for groups of multiple levels lower than you.

On the plus side, for ninja looter people, I recently learned that ninja looting is a victimless "crime", since the loot returns at its fullest spawn as long as the monsters in the area are kept at high spawn, so this method of soloing has my full endorsement.  The only way it hurts anyone is if a group goes in within a half hour to an hour after your sweep, which is pretty unlikely unless its a place very close to Vallaki.

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6598
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 11:47:15 AM »
atually 15-30 mins from my experience after a place has been Ninja looted

Rawbbeh

  • New to the Mists
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 12:53:21 PM »
I've run into issues with a particular player more than three times where I will be halfway clearing a cave and pushing to the end with someone and go around a corner and find this player walking OUT of the cave...

We continue to fight to the end and then when we get to the final room where the leader and posse should be, they are all killed and the chests looted.  It's like this player casts invisibility, bypasses us while we are fighting, kills/loots the end of the cavern, and then walks out proudly leaving us gypped.  Probably not against the rules...but seriously pretty douchey.

Iconoclast

  • Church of the Lawgiver
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6646
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 01:00:39 PM »


If they don't even bother to rp-interact with any of you on top of that, it is even lamer. One ooc option might be to notify the CC of the player, and perhaps someone could pull them aside and talk with them. It might not do any good, but, it might. Second option is an ic-option, but depends on what someone's character would do when they have someone chronically disrespecting them in the manner described. I have characters that would be annoyed, but wouldn't do anything about it, while I have at least one character that would go out of his way to hunt the character down.

Tyras

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 01:23:04 PM »
There are certain instances where I can understand this sort of thing.  I can see where a rogue trained in the art of stealth might slip past the watchful eyes of guards and steal away with precious treasures.  Even the game has a system to promote it with awarding XP to rogues based on what they are able to sneak past.  That is fine, and the path of the rogue tends to be more on the selfish side generally speaking so it's not outside the realm of RP.

The problem I've encountered is when the group I'm with is lucky enough to find an area that hasn't been cleared (the places within a few maps of Vallaki are heavily trafficed due to the number of lower level players on at any given time) and we set about destroying the vile creatures within and some player glowing from head to toe with magic items and spell effects comes in and wipes the place out one shotting everything that dares stand in his or her path.  Monsters that would take my party a combined effort to slay a rendered moot by a single swing of a weapon or even groups of them smote with a single spell.

Meanwhile the rest of us are left to wait fifteen minutes to try again.  There was no RP gain for the single player.  There was little to no XP gain by the solo player.  It was about easy, risk free gold.

urathraviel

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 621
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 01:41:22 PM »
There are certain instances where I can understand this sort of thing.  I can see where a rogue trained in the art of stealth might slip past the watchful eyes of guards and steal away with precious treasures.  Even the game has a system to promote it with awarding XP to rogues based on what they are able to sneak past.  That is fine, and the path of the rogue tends to be more on the selfish side generally speaking so it's not outside the realm of RP.

Actually, as i understand it that system is no longer present in the game, certainly I've never seen it activated on my rogue and i recall a thread a while ago mentioning it and being told it encouraged this very behaviour and so was taken out of the module. i could be mistaken though its a while since i read that thread and i don't recall enough of it to find it again.

I would say that before you get uppity at higher levels clearing an area, i know a few who do go through the crypt area's because they need the herbs and actually feel quite bad about doing so because they cant invis or stealth to leave monsters intact. though that doesn't seem to be the case in the occasions mentioned here its worth bearing in mind in case you run across someone doing just that.

Seniies

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 01:42:44 PM »
(You actually get less xp by soloing, so it's also counter productive)

Thats odd by myself in Har akir i get xp from a high priest, but when i got jinx near by i get none.

Tyras

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 586
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 02:01:55 PM »
Quote
I would say that before you get uppity at higher levels clearing an area, i know a few who do go through the crypt area's because they need the herbs and actually feel quite bad about doing so because they cant invis or stealth to leave monsters intact. though that doesn't seem to be the case in the occasions mentioned here its worth bearing in mind in case you run across someone doing just that.

I wouldn't say it's getting uppity.  It negatively impacts the game for players that use those areas because of their character level.  As far as the herbing goes, are they unable to obtain them from more level appropriate areas?  If so are there no lower level characters that would sell them the herbs or that they might commission to obtain the herbs for them rather than simply wipe out the content for the lower level players to fill up on their herbal needs?

There are IC ways for them to get what they need, but you're right, the herb collectors aren't generally what I have seen.  The players I have seen do pick up herbs, but they also kill named bounty spawns and loot the treasure chests so I doubt herbs are the only reason they're in those places.

Dobian

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 997
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 02:15:42 PM »
The only reason my main has for going into the low level caves and crypts is for the herbs, and killing things is pointless as there is no xp. Anyone who can one-shot kill things in a dungeon is wasting their time there and should go find something better to do.  It would help if there were more dungeons added that provide a challenge to the mid-levels in Barovia while also being a source of herbs and ore.  Then you would see less farming of the low level dungeons by characters too high for them.  Also, if you put a level cap on getting the reward for bounties, then you wouldn't have higher levels grabbing low level bounties.


Tabitha Dalenner, Faerun
Sentire Stefania Milea, Borca
Paulette Gérard, Dementlieu
Salina Pandora, Faerun
Louis Mingo, Souraigne

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6598
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 02:17:24 PM »
Uhm.... its not hard to figure out how to one shot kill things at low level.

And there really is no reason for any mid-high level to enter the ML crypts for example, the Viccar's caps grow elsewhere, or they can easily hire people to bring them Viccar's caps

urathraviel

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 621
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 02:59:24 PM »
Quote
Snipped

I wouldn't say it's getting uppity.  It negatively impacts the game for players that use those areas because of their character level.  As far as the herbing goes, are they unable to obtain them from more level appropriate areas?  If so are there no lower level characters that would sell them the herbs or that they might commission to obtain the herbs for them rather than simply wipe out the content for the lower level players to fill up on their herbal needs?

There are IC ways for them to get what they need, but you're right, the herb collectors aren't generally what I have seen.  The players I have seen do pick up herbs, but they also kill named bounty spawns and loot the treasure chests so I doubt herbs are the only reason they're in those places.

uppity was perhaps a bad choice of word but I'm hoping my meaning came across well enough. as far as i know in the more populated area's of the server (east of valaki) there are only three crypts. two of which are soloable by any herber likely to need the higher demand in vicars caps (as an example since their the most popular) and one where at that level a group is needed. The unfortunate fact is that one dungeon run through a level appropriate zone will give you maybe 4/5 of these on a good run. theres a reason many herbers will pay extra for the crypt type,. it might be worth considering the addition of some unpopulated crypts sheerly for herbing purposes to balance that out but, i digress. herbing wasn't really the topic at hand just an example i was using for a 'legitimate' reason someone over leveled might be entering these places.

Personally i don't understand why someone would even want to ninja loot these lowbie dungeons, the loot spawns are often more for coin value than usefullness and there are far easier ways to get coin that don't inconvenience other players.

BalorVale

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2012, 04:18:18 PM »
Mayhaps we just need a few more dungeons? The fire beetles, Grimishka cave, Skeleton Crypts, and sewers are all great dungeons. Mybe adding a few more will allow groups of low level to find somewhere to train while mid levels (which seems to be the disputed levels) can do these, but as a player, I frown upon complete solo'ers, but they are created from ackward playing times and RL havock, and trying to control that is pointless. Maybe more places available in other area's.... A few low level dungeons in Port or Har'Akir may spice things up.

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 05:51:26 PM »
Mayhaps we just need a few more dungeons? The fire beetles, Grimishka cave, Skeleton Crypts, and sewers are all great dungeons. Mybe adding a few more will allow groups of low level to find somewhere to train while mid levels (which seems to be the disputed levels) can do these, but as a player, I frown upon complete solo'ers, but they are created from ackward playing times and RL havock, and trying to control that is pointless. Maybe more places available in other area's.... A few low level dungeons in Port or Har'Akir may spice things up.

more??? when is it enough????     i would sooner say adjust the spawn rate in those low lvl areas.
loads of lowbies means loads of dungeoning going on.
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

Amon-Si

  • Inventor of the cat
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2418
  • Freelance troublemaker
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 06:25:50 PM »
*eyes Eliza, his level 12 Sorceress*
Uh... what's dungeoning?

BalorVale

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 06:30:12 PM »
Mayhaps we just need a few more dungeons? The fire beetles, Grimishka cave, Skeleton Crypts, and sewers are all great dungeons. Mybe adding a few more will allow groups of low level to find somewhere to train while mid levels (which seems to be the disputed levels) can do these, but as a player, I frown upon complete solo'ers, but they are created from ackward playing times and RL havock, and trying to control that is pointless. Maybe more places available in other area's.... A few low level dungeons in Port or Har'Akir may spice things up.

more??? when is it enough????     i would sooner say adjust the spawn rate in those low lvl areas.
loads of lowbies means loads of dungeoning going on.

I was reffering to having the low level dungeons not only be around Vallaki, it might encourage lowbies to explore, and enough is never enough if it promotes RP.

Sharauvyn

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 07:06:24 PM »
About the viccar's caps, the issue that makes lower level dungeons tempting for mid to high level characters is that if you are looking for healing potions for crafting, it doesn't make much sense to go looking for the herbs in places you are going to spend more healing supplies travelling through than you gain in herbs taken.  At some point, relying on high level dungeons for healing supplies becomes unsustainable, considerate to go herbing in low level dungeons or not. Since almost all healing supplies come from adventuring areas in some capacity ...

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 07:15:35 PM »
Lets not forget ML tonics. If you are not a herbalist or have any healing spells or abilities then you are left with potions. At times the best thing you can get are ML tonics, particularly if you are poor, there isn't anyone on to sell you potions, or potions are out of stock. ML tonics are great and seems to heal more than regular cure lights from heralist. Adding a merchant that can sell the equivalent in a different location like near the village can probably reduce some of the knuckle farming.  

I would also like to mention the difficulty getting a group to leave Vallaki to go other places. I find it very difficult almost like pulling teeth to get a reasonable group to leave to places like the village or Har'Akir. The reasons vary from not enough time to "I don't want to travel that far." You will find people in Port Lucine there only for bounties. But there is an active group that RPs in that area quite a bit. Other than that most stay near the outskirts. That is where a good chunk of the server population is at. A merchant would be crazy to set up a shop in Degannwy, the village, Muhar, or any other place besides the Outskirts or Port Lucine. There is just not enough traffic in other areas. (Would love to see a traveling salesman, that would be awesome.)

Any server that I found that has a decent amount a players on it has these zones, just Ravenloft's is the outskirts. You also see a large number of people in the ML temple and not the Lady's Rest. (Maybe that can change if the MLs start acting like extreme sun freaks  :angel:)

Elfric

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2623
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 07:39:08 PM »
Mid to High levels need healing tonics and herbs? Let's see... Village of Barovia, if i recall, provides both. Both are functionally the same idea, go into the Village crypts, kill things, collect herbs, ????, profit. In all honesty besides RPling with new people, high levels shouldn't bother with the outskirts and surrounding countryside at all. Say for the mountains to craft armor and weapons.

"You left the campfire back in the field. The entire grass field is on fire. Smokey the Bear is on the edge of the field, on his knees, sobbing into his hands."

Dhark

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1132
  • Ladul !
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 07:42:27 PM »
Hopefully Blue will get round to adding some form of healing to the village soon, I think if this happened a large chunck of the player base would be quite content to move.

When a group I played with tried to relocate there this was indeed a large stumbling block.

Elfric

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2623
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 07:58:03 PM »
I've been barking up this tree, as many others have... But it would be grand to see Port self sufficant as such. Maybe sisters of Hala giving healing potions for ever 5 or 10 food tickets donated to the poor.

"You left the campfire back in the field. The entire grass field is on fire. Smokey the Bear is on the edge of the field, on his knees, sobbing into his hands."

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 08:05:52 PM »
Speaking of barking up a tree, what about making the ability to make barkskin potions and have them available in other areas to encourage some traveling or exploration.

Masquerade Mask

  • Outlander
  • **
  • Posts: 56
Re: Higher levels clearing lower level content
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 08:24:22 PM »
The ability to make barkskin potions already exists.


Carmilla Lazarovici - slightly self loathing scholar of history
Suzette Lachance - full of whiskey and ready to shoot her bow