Spells - Ranger spell list.. nerfs

[Aghila]

I've noticed the spell "One with the land" has been reduced drastically (1 turn/lvl). Any reason behind this? I dont think its an uber spell... and it only makes rangers lose another useful spell for them.

Rangers have few useful spells in their small repertory, but most of them have been nerfed. Sure some spells need balance, but I think you only looked at mages when balancing spells, not caring about semi-caster classes.

Here's the Ranger Spell List:

Level 1: (1 slot at level 4 with WIS 12+, 2 slots lvl 6, 3 slots lvl 15)

Summon creature 1 (useles) 
Ultravision (nice, not nerfed)   
Cure light wounds (useles) 
Camouflage (nice, not nerfed)   
Endure elements (useles) 
Entangle (useles) 
Grease (useles)
Magic fang (weak compared to magic weapon) 

Level 2 (1 slot at lvl 8 with WIS 14+, 2 slots at lvl 10, 3 slots at lvl 16)

Sleep (useles... what the hells is doing this spell here?....) 
Hold animal (useles)
Cats grace (cool... but NERFED) 
One with the land (nice, NERFED) 
Prot vs. elements (nice, not nerfed) 
Summon creature II (useles)

Level 3 (1 slot at lvl 12, 2 slots lvl 17)

Aid (not bad.. for a spell at lvl 12?) 
Blade thirst (really low duration and lots of restrictions... useles) 
Greater magic fang (nice, NERFED cap at +3) 
Purge invisibility (nice, but with 2 slots at lvl 17.. not much use) 
Remove disease (pff) 
Cure moderate wounds (lol...) 
Neutralize poison (see remove disease) 
Summon creature III (wow.. a dire wolf at lvl 12!!)

Level 4 (1 slot lvl 15, 2 slots lvl 18)

Polymorph (woah.. finally a really nice spell.. oops it was a nice spell NERFED!)
Mass Camoflage (good for party play) 
Freedom of movement (nice) 
Cure serious wounds (erm... can be used sometimes)
Summon creature IV (crappy spider)

As you can see, rangers have few spells.. most of them are useles (compare the list with another half-caster like a palladin) and most of them have been nerfed. The changes in durations can be easily compensated in other pure casters by preparing more slots of the same spell, or the use of metamagic feats. So rangers get the worst part of the nerfs. Maybe some changes should be considered again.

[EO]

The changes were done for a reason, those spells lasted literally forever and then some giving their casters pretty much permanent boosts.

We tweak spells based on overall balance, of course it will gimp people when we tone some spells down, but that's only because the spells were unbalanced to begin with or problematic.

[failed.bard]

  Don't bash grease.  It'll drop a hezrou on his backside.  Repeatedly.

[Aghila]

One with the land is a ranger/druid spell only, I dont see any of these classes overpowered and anyways the effects of the spell are not that uber...

And Blade thirst (only ranger excluisive spell)... well.. this one was nerfed by Bioware already. It has so many restrictions and its duration is so low that its worthles... I already suggested making it last 1 turn/lvl like other magic weapon spells.

The changes were done for a reason, those spells lasted literally forever and then some giving their casters pretty much permanent boosts.

We tweak spells based on overall balance, of course it will gimp people when we tone some spells down, but that's only because the spells were unbalanced to begin with or problematic.

I know, but its not that you are making a specific char gimp.. its a pure class (full ranger levels) whats beeing gimped. Who wants to play a pure ranger till lvl 20? Appart from the great RP they are already weak compared to other classes in D&D 3.0. Nerfing their most useful spells just makes the unbalance grow.

  Don't bash grease.  It'll drop a hezrou on his backside.  Repeatedly.

Yeah.. for one time a day.. and you have only two slots. So its not a useful spell. When you have so few slots useful spells must have a long duration or be really useful.

[Rex]

One with the Land pops up on Scrolls which effectively, makes it a bard, rogue, ranger, druid spell that stacks with numerous other Sneak Spells.

My Gripe, with ALL the nerfed Magic Weapon style spells is that the nerfing makes it USELESS (the Greater versions), when you get the spell.  You have to put on another couple of caster levels to make it worth a crap.  Lowering the ceiling doesn't bother me I've gotten used to having to run from half the monster Base and DP riddled antagonist players but a Higher Level spell should always be more effective then a Lower level one, not start Wimpier then eventually get to What it's supposed to Start At, then Finally get to where it should be.

My 6th level Druid can casually wade through crap with a magic fanged BADGER, that my 12th level Fighter has to run from.  So a few nerfings, I can understand though I dislike what I pointed out above.  It would make more sense to me to expand the range of levels needed to Increase to the next stage rather then knock the foundation out from under the spell and start it in the basement.

As for the summons.  Well they are what they are and if they are close to or closer to the book durations, I'm fine with it.  I just get annoyed that the summoning Animation seems to eat up some of it's time.

Book durations for Magic Fang 1/min per level, Greater Magic Fang, 1 HOUR per level for Greater Magic Fang.  Magic Weapon, same deal.  At the rate that Time passes in game I don't see an Hour per Level being that obnoxious for the Greater versions.

Having it start as less effective then the first level spell, that's a gripe.  I also want my Continual Flame back.  Set the light effect up as a small torch instead of a spotlight and give it back it's forever (but dispellable) duration.

Also to support another comment.  Grease is a very handy spell.  In final analysis, since I know if I don't bring it up someone will point out I didn't bring it up.  The components for these spells would serve to balance them far more, then constantly re-tweaking the durations and effects.  Some basic setting rules for the Animal Companions and such would help the other side of the equation as well.  Not a lot of components for ranger and druid spells true, but on the Arcane and Divine side of things, different story.  Makes those few spells the semi casters like the ranger gets that more useful.

~Rex


~Rex

[Mim]

I don't mind any of the nerfs to the spells in the current spell list for Rangers. What I do mind is the lack of certain other spells that they get in PnP(atleast in 3.5) like Bull's Strength, Barkskin, Ram's Might, Bear's Endurance and Owl's wisdom at spell level2. Given what most rangers give up by being pure and the limited number of spells they can cast per day it wouldn't do anything but bring them up to par with Paladin/Fighter and Barbarian in terms of usefulness and that's assuming they play a support role rather then a meatshield or tank.

[Mark Johansen]

Bear's Endurance

 

[Meriana]

Bear's Endurance

 

[Mim]

Bear's Endurance

 

Or just Endurance.. that'd be fine too!

[Purist]

To myself, something that sucks about the nerfed durations is that when my paladin is buffed and walking around the crypts and encouters a MPC, a vampire for example, I enjoy RPing with them, having lengthly talks prior to anything and what happens is that all my buffs fade away and I'm if anything a (encumbered) fighter against them. A pet peeve of mine is when people sometimes out of nowhere in the middle of a conversation sit on the ground for a rest, to recover their spells prior to any hostility, I find this very OOC. Like I meet a vampire and we'll ifght but first I raise my finger and ask for a moment of prayer, and say "silence please".

[NightShadow]

People doing that are obviously preparing to attack. It's not necessarily OOC, metagaming or anything like that, it's IC stupidity. Best thing to do is to remind them of that via IC hostility (hit them hard and fast).

Anyway, the ranger line of spells is excellent for buffs to stealth, and a few basic counters (ultravision, elemental protection) or disabling spells (grease, entangle). It's very situational, moreso than for other classes due to their lower number of spellslots. Regrettably they aren't as strong as they were in PnP, but it's a very workable class, and fairly decent (if not good or inherently awesome) as a pure class. They're primarily a martial class, and can attain the highest stealth scores of any class (halfling ranger, anyone?), and these two things should be focused on, with their magical ability only augmenting that. Don't forget that they have Set Trap as a class skill, that could prove invaluable.

Really the only spell change I really dislike is that of Animate/Create Undead, which turned crap spells into double-crap spells (or perhaps half-crap, due to the low duration).

[Sharauvyn]

Every problem that anyone has brought up in this thread concerning ranger spells has a solution, and I say this as the player of an almost pure ranger.  If you want better spells, multiclass with a pure caster class, or just play a pure caster.  If you want more skill points, toss on some levels of rogue.  If you want greater variety in buffs without multiclassing, take up herbalism and make your own potions. (I think that's actually quite fun.)  Want to do more damage? Take four levels of fighter and specialize in a weapon. You can add 2 points to ALL damage rolls against ALL targets with that weapon, not just your favored enemies.  Specialize in a small weapon so you can dual wield them as a ranger. Then, add some rogue and dual wield them while sneak attacking at a flank against favored enemies.  Want to move faster? Take a level in barbarian.  If buffs don't last long, then hold on to them until you know you will need them and start key fights by quaffing an invisibility potion which you crafted yourself, because you practiced herbalism, buff up while sheltered by the effect, and then engage in battle.  You can RP all you want with your PC foe before the fight without losing your buffs and then come into battle with an advantage.  If they run, quaff the cowardice potion you crafted yourself, because you took the time to practice the craft, and go after them.

A rangers is an RP class with a role, and they are crafty characters.  Be crafty. You'll play a better ranger, no matter the situation, no matter the buffs or lack thereof, or what have you.  Use the forethought, planning, and craftiness your class is known for, and you'll do well.

[respawnaholic]

Every problem that anyone has brought up in this thread concerning ranger spells has a solution, and I say this as the player of an almost pure ranger.  If you want better spells, multiclass with a pure caster class, or just play a pure caster.  If you want more skill points, toss on some levels of rogue.  If you want greater variety in buffs without multiclassing, take up herbalism and make your own potions. (I think that's actually quite fun.)  Want to do more damage? Take four levels of fighter and specialize in a weapon. You can add 2 points to ALL damage rolls against ALL targets with that weapon, not just your favored enemies.  Specialize in a small weapon so you can dual wield them as a ranger. Then, add some rogue and dual wield them while sneak attacking at a flank against favored enemies.  Want to move faster? Take a level in barbarian.  If buffs don't last long, then hold on to them until you know you will need them and start key fights by quaffing an invisibility potion which you crafted yourself, because you practiced herbalism, buff up while sheltered by the effect, and then engage in battle.  You can RP all you want with your PC foe before the fight without losing your buffs and then come into battle with an advantage.  If they run, quaff the cowardice potion you crafted yourself, because you took the time to practice the craft, and go after them.

A rangers is an RP class with a role, and they are crafty characters.  Be crafty. You'll play a better ranger, no matter the situation, no matter the buffs or lack thereof, or what have you.  Use the forethought, planning, and craftiness your class is known for, and you'll do well.

Word of personal advise. dont specialize in short swords. they tend to be very weak on this server. wyoull be lucky to get damage out of the single digits per hit with criticals. Stylewise i prefer shortswords but i finally gave up on them.

On a related note rangers SHOULD be levelling herbalism and alchemy, leatherworking, etc, anyway as a normal extension of their class. A ranger is a ranger because they can survive without needing to buy everything to survive in a store.

[Ercvadasz]

one word about grease....
usefull spell...but with the 15 or 16 dc you can hit on level 10...it will be quite useless...even the appropriate undead on your level have 50% chance of making the save, not to mention anything that is a living thing, or construct.
Grease is good for druids, druids should go transmutation focus way and than spam grease. The focuses and the owls insight alone gives them +6 minimum DC.

Actually a rangers first level spell:
cure light wounds is good because it means you get healed d8+5 minimum.
resist energy takes up 30 poitns max, but 20 points of one effect, much better than endure elements, very good for traps, and a few spells.
camouflage quite usefull.
magic fang? with the new companion system waste of spell slot.

2nd level
one with the land and cats grace. You will basicly memorise as many cats graces as you can, because their duration is just too low. and prot elements is good too.

3rd level...
have to experience having them. But since most rangers are forced to go for slashing focus, i would say blade thirst.
Blade thirst because that +3 enchanted weapon can make a serious difference especially when you dont have a varnish. Aid? laughable, your better off finding them in potions. Invisibilty purge is quite usefull, CMW a free healing? allways good, shame it takes up your Blade thirst slot.
GMF? total waste, your animal companion is very weak, is meant for RP mostly, it dies fast, and needs a raise.

4th level
Polymorph. Pure and simple. Mass camouflage better to buy scrolls, CSW? potion. Polymorph is the spell to choose, once you hit level 17 to be able to take it up or 16.
Than you can start trolling:)

I play a pure ranger. I took up a variety of skills, even non class skills, to make the character usefull.
But still for him to be actually able to perform what is required of it, he carries a serious amount of consumables.
3-4 bags just for traps. 1 just for lockpicks. 1 just for open lock enhancing gear. 1 just for figting capability maxing, 1 for search and spot maxing...And not to mention all the potions, herbs, alchemical ingreds he carries. Basicly he is a walking vardo shop on his own.

About the set trap skill, yes it is usefull, though it is a damn shame you cant craft your own traps, nor can you recover them.
The 4 skill points is just not enough:) Not to mention you have to craft everything....your potions, your varnishes, and if you feel like it your own bolts or arrows:P

[Sharauvyn]

I think the best thing that can be done to make rangers feel more, well, ranger-like, is to have more opportunities to make a difference in the game by doing things other classes can't.  Rangers, and druids for that matter, are supposed to be in tune with nature. People who play these two classes express an interest, by taking the class, in doing nature related things.  I'd like to see encounters with animals that will only cooperate with or be approached by rangers or druids.  Plant lore puzzles that rangers and druids get, like, +15 to their lore check to figure out.  Significant chances to anticipate some sort of disturbance or threat because they notice the signs made by animals around them to its presence.  Something, anything at all, where it could actually make a difference that a party had a ranger with them instead of just another fighter, or a druid instead of just another priest.  The closest I've ever seen to this on *any* NWN server is animals that inexplicably prove immune to animal empathy in order to make the point something unnatural is going on, and things like that. Sure, it's great to add some color to the plot, but that color comes at the expense of completely nullifying one of the few things that actually sets the class apart from others, leaving the character further hampered by cutting into one of their few fortes no one else can touch.   Personally, I'd even be willing to sacrifice some of the spell related abilities for more chance to RP a character who gets along with nature.

[Exordium]

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