[Suggestion] Corpse Organization in ML Sanctuary

[Emomina]

You are demonstrating a misconception, Blackthorne.
There is a clear distinction between Raise Dead and Create Dead. It is conjuration magic that reunites a soul with a still live-able body. Necromancy that creates animated husks of what they were former is what the Morninglordians would take great issue. They are learned enough to know the clear difference between the two. You are adding 2+2 and getting 5.

[Thoraion]

i have no trouble with the morninglordian faith allowing resurrection (including raise dead).
But i would also like Liz not being powerfull enough to do that.

Having a corrupt morninglordian NPC in the area who can do that instead Liz suits the setting quite well. Corrupt to a degree that makes it almost obvious that the resurrection is a mere means of funding evil schemes and maybe even necromancy.

Pro: Most PCs would defend that guy from justice because resurrections are otherwise hardly accessible. This adds to the setting quite well.

Con: Consequently lawfull-good haracters are very likely to do anything to get that guy behind bars or below the earth, no matter the cost and future inaccessibility of resurrection.

I fear that Con alone outweights the Pros.

Other idea... what about the Mad Doc and a whispered suggestion from Liz that there is someone below the sewers who may be able to help where she can't?
Con: Well... MUCH increased traffic in that area... nothing what would benefit the drain, i fear

[Axra]

Yeah the temple bugs me, mainly because its the safehouse for maaany players whom have to share the space with daises which are sometimes COVERED in corpses.  I mean, theres bedrolls out for PCs to sleep on  etc, but then RIGHT NEXT TO THEM are a shitload of dead people/pets, and everyone is just expected to be cool about it.  Not to mention the smell, disease, psychological trauma it could bring, and all other negative aspects of sleeping with dead people.  It feels very un-RP.  My suggestion is turn the back of the temple to sort of like a "sick bay" type area (away from where the healthy people sleep etc).  There the dead and injured can wait to be seen to.  Would make good sense considering the overwhelming amount of casualties that go through every day.

[Thoraion]

another suggestion maybe to a place for corpses and resurrection:

First, the place should be easily accessible for anyone who needs it.
It should NOT be the main temple room (but i still like an adjacent chamber).
It should have enough space for corpses.
What about an automated transfer to the charnel house of corpses after a reset? Then of course there should also be a cross reference to that house
   "I am seeking a friend whom i suppose to be dead" - "If you can not find him here, you may want to have a look in the charnel house. That is the place where we store the dead before we bury them".
I would especally like to have a nauseating or even diseasing effect in the areas where the bodies are stored to prevent it from becoming a social magnet.

[Geiger]

Consider that the Morninglord faith is an aspect, although estranged aspect of the Lathanderite faith. It doesn't entirely have a naturist slant per say, but the concept of cycles and rebirth would be key to it - it comes into play with the forgiveness aspects of the faith. While you are arguing that they are completely opposed to resurrection: I disagree, but I do say that they wouldn't just resurrect people all willy-nilly. They are of a kind and hopeful nature - but its just kind of silly how they are represented in the game currently.

Death is not treated as seriously as it should be and there is an aspect of this that needs to be community enforce, by good and positive example. Maybe as well as a mechanical focus - but really, we should all be working on:

1. Treating death like death. Death is disorienting, painful - soul shaking and will most definitely take one out of game for a little bit. People just hopping up and going back into the fray are not leading a good example for others or new players. Raise Dead specifically will mess you up.. you basically come back into a painful, torn up state barely between the states of life and death. Resurrection brings people back with no rez-penalty - but you still should probably have some period of confusion, weakness. You were just dead, now you are not. That -is- something to question, ponder.

2. Acknowledge NPCs. You need to acknowledge that while this soulless NPC is raising your friend - (For prices that would be considered kings' ransoms to the local population...) - treat the moment seriously, not just a 'LOL I DROP A BODY OFF FOR LIZUCA'. You just had to suffer a friends death. Now you are being granted a MIRACLE. Why would you treat it any less than that? Even if you're a Faerunian, or someone from a world where there is magic - resurrections still are not that common. They are still miracles.

3. From an observation of Barovian culture, they do very much except the healing aspects of magic. This is a result of the Church of Andral, and its impact on the society of Barovia. But since the demise of that faith and organization, there have been very few to replace it. They still would, in my opinion, turn to these things as a last result - preferring mundane methods beforehand. (As should any Cleric, just because you can, doesn't mean you should and the mundane methods can be treated awesomely.) However - I can see big issues with over-saturation of raise dead - publicly, that is... it stems from the spell itself, the act, being one, RELIGIOUS, two, IMPORTANT, and again.. RELIGIOUS! One it'd be a big religious ceremony (I don't think Barovians would be comfortable with big cult meetings, centered around raising the dead, honored or otherwise).

4. Which brings me to this point. This whole event is religious. While the Morninglordians are tolerant (but I do not buy in to them being so tolerant that they'd be smooching Caliban and defending dog-legged tieflings, in the very least, not openly - these people are still Barovians and Gundarakites. They are not all CG paragons of smiles...) - the services that they do seek to embolden people to join their faith. There are also some issues in general with resurrecting people outside of your deity alignment acceptance. The ML is listed as CG, that means his clerics could be CG, NG, and CN (not counting people corrupted by dark powers and suffering from delusions). It makes it very unlikely to work out well, for someone who is CG, to resurrect a LE being - something on the other side of the spectrum. There should be a percentage of failure, for every step away you are from acceptance.

I do not think they're going to be up for resurrecting known criminals, animals, monstrous beings - it'll get them in trouble and it WOULD get their organization dismantled by the local government.

5. Just treat stuff seriously. Move bodies outside of the Temple and into places where they should be. Take them into the graveyard out back, or into one of the tombs. Go take someone and 'bury them'. Just be surprised if you see that person again. Cry, hug them - question reality and sanity. The person before you has either been granted a miracle or you're in an awkward and dangerous situation with some sort of vile doppleganger.


But yeah, the tl;dr version is this: Treat things seriously. Set examples of 'good behaviour'. I do agree there are too many cheesy or stupid things going on in the Temple. But it requires us as players - and hopefully with the support of the staff, to police and maintain the setting as well as the grounds. (That doesn't mean being a lore-nazi.)

I'd also like to say that if you DO get into a situation where someone is being and complete and total asshead and seems flagrantly disregarding setting/NPCs and all that. Report it to the CC and a DM. Let them deal with it. I'm sure something will happen. (Remember to take screenshots!)

[Rave]

Thing is about miracles, and bringing people back from the dead....they're supposed to be rare and none existent. When you have them occur all the time and on a daily basis, they lose their charm and prestige.

The normal npcs and barovians would still react to seeing this kind of things as rare and awe inspiring. But players usually play the heroes or villains of the world, becoming more and more used to such grand and powerful acts of god. I'm not saying its an excuse, I'm just pointing out that it is part of the problem of playing the hero in the story, especially in a PW world where everyone wants to be the savior or the knight of doom in the story.

Magic, sadly, becomes over used, and something out norm.

[dark_majico]

I dont think theres is any need to put the bodys in a different room, allthough there is no harm in, that because the ghost system can catch peoples attention. Perhaps a speacial location instead.

My first though on that area has allways been that there aught to be a designated spot for the priests to carry out the healing and raising of the dead. Screen an area off, put in a bed and a book shelf, a few placables like a bowl of water and a rag to clean up the bodys/wash off the blood, dont go over board and fill it with silly gold placables and fancy lights and stuff, but use broken furnature and basic looking toolset content just to dress it ever so slightly. There should probably be a seperate room for private morning lord faction roleplay, and a bed or two for the piests to rest, as they eternaly stand in the same location.

Ive allways thought a few minor tweaks would help make the area look finished, because to me its allways felt like it was 60% built.

[Reigh]

I do not even think there is a IC reason why Liz raises dead body's in the first place or NPC Conversation script there for the raise.

[dark_majico]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I dont know a lot about Ravenloft Lore and have never read any of the books so I couldnt comment on waht Luzica would do, but there has to be some sort of mechanic for raises and Luzica dosent seem out of place to me.

[Blackthorn51]

Im not confusing Raise dead for Necromancy and I am aware it is conjuration.  My point however, remains that to return a dead body to life one must disrupt the natural order of life and death.  This is something that is in fact against the Morning Lord faith.  I believe its even mentioned in one of the "Area Transition Messages" for Ravenloft.  I distinctly remember reading it during a transition, which is what prompted my looking into it. 

[Exordium]

  *Puts on his scholarly hat*

In DnD and particularly Ravenloft PnP, there are multitude of added difficulties to raise dead. For one, in whole of Barovia, the amount of canon NPCs with the ability to cast Raise Dead to begin with can be counted with fingers solely. Cult of the Morninglord has only 1 person with this power that I can find after quick flipping through of Gazetteer and other books, and this character has to be reached within 12 days of death or the spell wont work at all.

The caster of the spell has to roll for a powers check and the target of the spell has to roll for successful resurrection or raise as an undead. On top of this, the actual cost of the spell is 5,000 GP worth of diamonds - not 100 gp per level.

Oh, and added to all this, the target of the spell will always lose one full level which can not be regained by any other means than re-earning the XP required.

Sometimes when death occurs in Ravenloft pen and paper, it is permanent and either the campaign ends or the player rolls a new character. This is particularly so if DM decides that the death came in a very decisive point for the storyline. Otherwise, the DM would typically do a subquest to win a favor from a priest who can cast the spell or to find an item or spell that can be used to bring person back to life.

Technically there would never be a priest that raises people like on an assembly line in Ravenloft. However, as this is a Neverwinter Nights Persistent World, there of course has to be a way to get people back on their feet as death is way too common and easy to fall to for being permanent most of the time, even though it should possibly have more important role than it has now.

For corpses in the temple, you can always use the Charnel house if they haven't been paid for yet. After a while people will learn to check it.

[Sharauvyn]

They most certainly would.  Things like reviving the dead are against the natural order of life.  Natural Order is something those of the Morning Lord faith highly cherish.  To disrupt the natural order is an act of heresy.  IE, the act of casting Raise Dead or Resurrection in and of itself should in essence be against the ideology of the Church.

Can you provide a reference, please? I've looked around and can't find one either way.

Edit: I've also made it rather central to the role play of one of two main characters to have as firm an understanding as I can about what the in-game written materials say about Morning Lord doctrine, for about a full year.  I've yet to see anything decrying raising the dead in any of it. Animating dead bodies into zombies and such is an absolute abomination, yes. But, raising them alive is not, so far as I've seen. Secondly, concerning another example, the faith of Kelemvor, which has similar prohibitions against animating dead bodies, they see raising those killed in an untimely manner as an undoing of a wrong against them, not as "unnatural."  It is a Kelemvorite's duty to see those for whom it is "not their time" raised, if possible, or at least to support the idea morally.  I realize we are talking about the Morning Lord and not Kelemvor, but there is also precedent outside the  ML faith that says raising someone to life is a duty, not an abomination.  I also think it is at odds with the idea of "there is always  hope" to suddenly take a reverse stance on that once someone is killed, when the ability to raise is available. It goes along with the hope doctrine to say, "Never fear. They are dead, but this still is not the end. There is still hope YET." ML opposition to undeath has to do with undead being "enemies of the dawn" in the darkness and evil they spread, not as standing against the "natural order of things." The Morning Lord is a god of hope and light, not a nature deity.

[Thani]

I think we can all agree that the game would be a pain if there were no NPC raises and that the spell had a 5k material cost.

[respawnaholic]

Yeah the temple bugs me, mainly because its the safehouse for maaany players whom have to share the space with daises which are sometimes COVERED in corpses.  I mean, theres bedrolls out for PCs to sleep on  etc, but then RIGHT NEXT TO THEM are a shitload of dead people/pets, and everyone is just expected to be cool about it.  Not to mention the smell, disease, psychological trauma it could bring, and all other negative aspects of sleeping with dead people.  It feels very un-RP.  My suggestion is turn the back of the temple to sort of like a "sick bay" type area (away from where the healthy people sleep etc).  There the dead and injured can wait to be seen to.  Would make good sense considering the overwhelming amount of casualties that go through every day.

I think this is a pretty good compromise between maintaining the setting and functionality.

[Axra]

having an area at the back of a temple or sleeping in a morgue?

[Norture]

Or you noobz could start RPing in the ML sanctuary in the city where, y'know, there's a kitchen and beds and stuff. Instead of a temple meant for handling dead bodies.

[Thani]

Personally, if I was in Barovia I would not sleep within 1 mile of a graveyard.

[Reigh]

Or you noobz could start RPing in the ML sanctuary in the city where, y'know, there's a kitchen and beds and stuff. Instead of a temple meant for handling dead bodies.

Thats what im sayin, RP outside of the outskirts! go ahead! you can do it!

[Springer]

Gates of Vallaki are closed at night that makes it unconvinient as a meeting point and for adventurers who may form a party at any time and go out someewhere (and there is a paradox: the lower the level of the party the more likely party would go dungeoning at night).
Besides lot of people are also hang in there cause they expect some DM encounters and events, and crypt under that temple is the most frequent place for such.

[Axra]

There should be a DM event when whats-her-name loses all power to res people.  I would love to see it nerfed for just one week...also so the MPCs can have some fun without the I R WINNR heroes drawing sword and attacking at first sight, even at night.

[Amon-Si]

Two words.
Spit Roast.

[Norture]

There should be a DM event when whats-her-name loses all power to res people.  I would love to see it nerfed for just one week...also so the MPCs can have some fun without the I R WINNR heroes drawing sword and attacking at first sight, even at night.

Those are two separate things entirely, and I guarantee you it will continue to go on. The people who really suffer in that sort of scenario are low levels, and worse yet new players who don't know any clerics or have connections yet.

[DM Erebus]

There should be a DM event when whats-her-name loses all power to res people.  I would love to see it nerfed for just one week...also so the MPCs can have some fun without the I R WINNR heroes drawing sword and attacking at first sight, even at night.

Those are two separate things entirely, and I guarantee you it will continue to go on. The people who really suffer in that sort of scenario are low levels, and worse yet new players who don't know any clerics or have connections yet.

Now there's an interesting suggestion.
Want to move high-levels out of the Outskirts? Have Liz stop healing/raising to anyone over level 10.

[Reigh]

There should be a DM event when whats-her-name loses all power to res people.  I would love to see it nerfed for just one week...also so the MPCs can have some fun without the I R WINNR heroes drawing sword and attacking at first sight, even at night.

Those are two separate things entirely, and I guarantee you it will continue to go on. The people who really suffer in that sort of scenario are low levels, and worse yet new players who don't know any clerics or have connections yet.

Now there's an interesting suggestion.
Want to move high-levels out of the Outskirts? Have Liz stop healing/raising to anyone over level 10.

Should lower that to level 7 even 6, most of the players in Ravenloft don't even get to level 10. They usually get killed and not raised..(whos going to pay 20000 fang for a badly wounded, burned level 10**) or Perma'd.

[Axra]

There should be a DM event when whats-her-name loses all power to res people.  I would love to see it nerfed for just one week...also so the MPCs can have some fun without the I R WINNR heroes drawing sword and attacking at first sight, even at night.

Those are two separate things entirely, and I guarantee you it will continue to go on. The people who really suffer in that sort of scenario are low levels, and worse yet new players who don't know any clerics or have connections yet.

Now there's an interesting suggestion.
Want to move high-levels out of the Outskirts? Have Liz stop healing/raising to anyone over level 10.

Should lower that to level 7 even 6, most of the players in Ravenloft don't even get to level 10. They usually get killed and not raised..(whos going to pay 20000 fang for a badly wounded, burned level 10**) or Perma'd.

Thats a bloody terrific idea