Author Topic: Animate and Create Undead  (Read 3497 times)

Ophie Kitty

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Animate and Create Undead
« on: January 27, 2012, 09:08:33 AM »
As it stands right now.. Animate Dead's summon is vastly stronger than the summons available to Create Undead, despite one being a level 3/5 spell, and create undead being level 6/8. The other thing that doesn't make much sense to me is that 'animating' PC corpses is linked to Create Undead, and not animate.. So heres my suggestion.

1: Animate Dead summons the tyrantfog zombie at all levels, or can be used to animate player corpses. (I'd also suggest letting palemaster's animate dead feat have the ability to animate player corpses too!)

2: Create Undead summons the Skeleton Cheiftain at all levels, with an increased duration compared to the standard summoning tree. 1Turn+2Turns/Level doesn't seem to be too much out of the question, for a level 6 and 8 spell. I'd suggest maybe letting this spell create a skeleton-version of an animated corpse as well, but that part isn't needed.


DM Erebus

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2012, 11:14:38 AM »
The Spell Changes list does not note that durations have changed for Create and Create Greater Undead. I must assume they are 1 turn + 1 turn/caster level.

I agree with the sentiment that these undead summons are not particularly well-balanced.

I am tempted to keep animating PC corpses as a 6th level spell (Create Undead) as that is more comparable to the spell level of Raise Dead (5th) for which it is a counterpoint.

I would, at the very least, be inclined to redesign all the summon creatures; the module does not make use of standard palatte creatures, and therefore the summons must be ill-designed for the pvm of the module?

LackofCertainty

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2012, 11:49:34 AM »
The reason why summon spells (and I include the animate dead/create undead/Planar ally/planar binding spells in that general group) are nerfed to have short durations on this server, is because it brings them down to a proper level of power for the server.  If you allow a summon spell to have a duration of turns/level or more then it basically lasts for a full rest period, which means that the caster can dump all of their buffs onto the summon.  If a caster dumps all of their buffs onto their summon the summon functions as a pocket tank. 

Pocket tanks make real tanks sad.  Do you want the tanks to be sad? :P

Meriana

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2012, 05:57:19 PM »
Is the issue that create undead is stronger than animate dead? Simply make them exchange places, then >.> I like diversity. Just change the levels around and stuff.

Ophie Kitty

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 05:58:51 PM »
Is the issue that create undead is stronger than animate dead? Simply make them exchange places, then >.> I like diversity. Just change the levels around and stuff.
Other way around. The higher level spell is weaker.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 07:24:31 PM »
The lower level spell summons a physical combat based minion with defensive special abilities (Some damage resistance and some damage immunities)

The higher level spell summons minions that have low abs (generally) and few hd (thus low hp) for the level of the spell, but have status ailments on hit. (the ghoul/ghasts have disease and stun on hit, the wight and spectre have level drain on hit)


The only problem is that by the level you get create undead at, their super low abs generally mean they need 20's to hit. (most of the create undead monsters have less ab than the skeleton chieftain summoned by animate dead)

I was under the impression that those spells got tweaked here, beyond their duration changes, but maybe not?

Meriana

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 09:01:44 PM »
Is the issue that create undead is stronger than animate dead? Simply make them exchange places, then >.> I like diversity. Just change the levels around and stuff.
Other way around. The higher level spell is weaker.

Sorry, I sometime make entire word typos. The suggestion still stands, though - and I would like to reference a thread I lack a link to which suggested making it possible to summon 'lower level' creatures although they are not the "strongest" (read: highest) ones possible.

NightShadow

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2012, 12:42:30 AM »
I've never understood why there was a duration for these spells at all. The whole point of undeath over conjuration is that there are no durations, they are your undying servants. In my opinion, they should be persistent, even across resting, but Animate Dead would always require a corpse, while Create Undead could summon anything you had animated in the past (but would require a reagent based on its power).

If animating something meant you got an undead replica of the creature in life (minus magical abilities like spellcasting), it would make it a more viable option.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 12:47:31 AM by NightShadow »
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

Blackthorn51

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 05:06:58 AM »
I've never understood why there was a duration for these spells at all. The whole point of undeath over conjuration is that there are no durations, they are your undying servants. In my opinion, they should be persistent, even across resting, but Animate Dead would always require a corpse, while Create Undead could summon anything you had animated in the past (but would require a reagent based on its power).

If animating something meant you got an undead replica of the creature in life (minus magical abilities like spellcasting), it would make it a more viable option.

I very much agree with most of this.   Specifically...  Animate dead should require a corpse.  And should animate whatever corpse is selected.

There was a server for instance that had animals and monsters leave behind corpses when you killed them.  Very similar to the way PCs do on death.  If you use Animate Dead on the corpse, it would rise as a zombie version of whatever it was.  If you animated a corpse of an Orc, you'd get a zombie orc.  Animate a bear, you'd get a zombie bear and so on.

What I would propose for this, would be that in the inventory of dead creatures --There would be a Corpse item that weighs whatever the approx weight of the monster, animal or person.  It would be pretty cool to see...

APorg

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 05:14:37 AM »
Sounds rather heavy in terms of placeables and server performance issues....
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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dark_majico

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 05:26:03 AM »
The lower level spell summons a physical combat based minion with defensive special abilities (Some damage resistance and some damage immunities)

The higher level spell summons minions that have low abs (generally) and few hd (thus low hp) for the level of the spell, but have status ailments on hit. (the ghoul/ghasts have disease and stun on hit, the wight and spectre have level drain on hit)


The only problem is that by the level you get create undead at, their super low abs generally mean they need 20's to hit. (most of the create undead monsters have less ab than the skeleton chieftain summoned by animate dead)


I think this issue should be addressed before anyone considered fancy systems of animating corpses. It shouldnt be that a higher level summon cant hit the broad side of a barn door!

NightShadow

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 06:36:15 AM »
Sounds rather heavy in terms of placeables and server performance issues....
Given that on that server, players had a number of summoning points, with which they could summon multiple creatures, or animate multiple undead.



That was my basic zombie army. I sometimes had more, I sometimes had more powerful creatures. These things persisted across resting, the only way to get rid of them was for me to log off, unsummon them, for them to be destroyed or for there to be a reset. People could also summon multiple creatures with the Summon Monster line of spells, though they had a duration of only a few rounds per level (a character built for it could possibly get a duration of 9.6 rounds per level, while most just had 3, at most).

Lag was not an issue there. I imagine having only -one- summon per necromancer here would not be an issue, either.

You'll note some of the zombies were "Corrupted." This is because I went in and experimented on them, essentially giving them a number of permanent buffs (which can be risky business, as even if I succeed on the experiment, I take damage, and if I fail both I and the zombie takes damage). These levels of variety for undead really made necromancy shine on that server, it's just a pity basic NWN didn't have a similar system. Anyway, in the end, the more variety (not necessarily power, but the opportunity for it is good) you give to necromancy and magic in general, the more awesome it becomes.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 06:39:49 AM by NightShadow »
Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

Dire Corby

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 07:20:49 PM »
I really would not mind summoning a wimpy spectre if it would last a good long while.  True, this does create the "pocket tank" situation, but we are talking about a spell that, from the Arcane perspective, you must be 15th level to cast.  Honestly when my high-level wizard wants a tank she uses extended Mordenkainen's Sword, which tanks far better than a spectre ever could. 

I just want Create Undead to last a long time for RP reasons!  As a combat spell it's a joke.

Miuo

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 05:12:31 PM »
Summons in general kill rp :3 since they last such a short time you have to make the best of what time you have.

dark_majico

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2012, 08:06:05 PM »
I cant see the developers changing the summon duration after they have allready altered it to be shorter, they only want them to have one intended use, which is to be a short duration combat spell. So why do we have a short duration combat summon which cant fight effectively?

APorg

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2012, 08:50:15 PM »
I cant see the developers changing the summon duration after they have allready altered it to be shorter, they only want them to have one intended use, which is to be a short duration combat spell. So why do we have a short duration combat summon which cant fight effectively?

Actually, Soren did raise the prospect of making the Summons timer start as combat started, rather than when it was cast, thus allowing for more RP potenital...
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Thani

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Re: Animate and Create Undead
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2012, 08:52:27 PM »
I cant see the developers changing the summon duration after they have allready altered it to be shorter, they only want them to have one intended use, which is to be a short duration combat spell. So why do we have a short duration combat summon which cant fight effectively?

Actually, Soren did raise the prospect of making the Summons timer start as combat started, rather than when it was cast, thus allowing for more RP potenital...

Would be so lovely that I would cry myself to sleep for playing a transmutation wizard without any conjuration.