Author Topic: Barkskin Potion Discussion  (Read 12140 times)

respawnaholic

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2012, 01:54:02 PM »
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Also, if you are a melee character and you are worried about your ac, you could always take expertise.  +5 ac fixes "I'm getting hit too much" issue pretty quickly, and lets you break into the 30+ ac range, where you start making stuff have to roll decently high to hit you. (if you add on buffs, then you get into the "they need 20's to hit me" zone)
Right and cant hit anything... Dont get me wrong, I agree that expertise is useful ability, but it isnt a substitute to barkskin.
I agree with your point of removing bark potions, but only if there would be a substitute for them (like possible item with 50 charges you mentioned). Cause it is indeed too much of a hassle to always go to deganwwy and click 20 times to buy these pots.

+1. Expertice is VERY useful, but only if you decide to become the agro sponge. Your teammates will have to do all the killing because you wont be hitting much with Expertice on, and yeah...if your playing some kind of fighting class you really need that extra point of AC from barkskin sometimes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 01:56:38 PM by respawnaholic »

LackofCertainty

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2012, 01:59:05 PM »
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Also, if you are a melee character and you are worried about your ac, you could always take expertise.  +5 ac fixes "I'm getting hit too much" issue pretty quickly, and lets you break into the 30+ ac range, where you start making stuff have to roll decently high to hit you. (if you add on buffs, then you get into the "they need 20's to hit me" zone)
Right and cant hit anything... Dont get me wrong, I agree that expertise is useful ability, but it isnt a substitute to barkskin.
I agree with your point of removing bark potions, but only if there would be a substitute for them (like possible item with 50 charges you mentioned). Cause it is indeed too much of a hassle to always go to deganwwy and click 20 times to buy these pots.

I brought up expertise, because it was said that barkskin was required to be able to tank enemies.  Expertise does make you worse at hitting stuff, but as far as tanking is concerned, it can totally replace barkskin in the early game.  5ac is more than 3ac from barkskin. (or more likely the 2 ac from barkskin, since +1 necklaces aren't hard to get) If the enemies only hit you on 20's it doesn't matter if you only hit on a 18, because your party should be able to massacre them before they can drop you. (baring those nasty strings of 20's)  Saying that you can't kill things in expertise doesn't matter, balance-wise, because the devs have always said they balance for party play, not solo play.

Maybe I should throw a barkskin equivalent to the brooch of shielding into the item request thread.

Sharauvyn

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2012, 02:11:09 PM »
Right and cant hit anything...

Everyone has a different perspective. My answer to this, if we're talking about using expertise and improved expertise is, "That's what teammates are for." :)  It actually makes me feel smarter and more patient and stuff to sit there and soak blows while other people do the hitting. Like, "I don't need to have stats that do it all, I have the skill to synchronize with a group."

respawnaholic

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2012, 05:51:00 PM »
Right and cant hit anything...

Everyone has a different perspective. My answer to this, if we're talking about using expertise and improved expertise is, "That's what teammates are for." :)  It actually makes me feel smarter and more patient and stuff to sit there and soak blows while other people do the hitting. Like, "I don't need to have stats that do it all, I have the skill to synchronize with a group."

Yes but having barkskin potions simply allows for some more flexible options from a party as well. What I mean is maybe the guy that  took expertice would like to do something besides be the designated damage sponge encounter after encounter. As it is now party dymanics now means little more than "lets set up behind the door jamb and get one guy to draw them into us." Do we really need to remove ALL flexibility from a PC in favor of "party dynamics?"

LackofCertainty

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2012, 06:50:19 PM »
Right and cant hit anything...

Everyone has a different perspective. My answer to this, if we're talking about using expertise and improved expertise is, "That's what teammates are for." :)  It actually makes me feel smarter and more patient and stuff to sit there and soak blows while other people do the hitting. Like, "I don't need to have stats that do it all, I have the skill to synchronize with a group."

Yes but having barkskin potions simply allows for some more flexible options from a party as well. What I mean is maybe the guy that  took expertice would like to do something besides be the designated damage sponge encounter after encounter. As it is now party dymanics now means little more than "lets set up behind the door jamb and get one guy to draw them into us." Do we really need to remove ALL flexibility from a PC in favor of "party dynamics?"

How does barkskin make you more flexable?  It just gives you really cheap AC. (compared to the cost of other ac sources)  If you're using that logic, then the devs should put greater stoneskin potions into the vendors, because being able to absorb 20 damage from each attack lets our party be a lot more flexible.  That way everyone can focus on doing damage without worrying about keeping the enemies off our mages.  That just doesn't quite make sense to me.  

If you want to deal more damage, then you accept that you make yourself less tanky.  That's the general trade-off.  If I could be a two handed weapon user who power attacks and still has the same defenses as a sword and board expertise user, then why would anyone want to use a sword and board or expertise?  There would be no point to it.   I'm exaggerating, but the point of it is, if you can easily get ac up to a point where you don't need expertise, then expertise has no reason to exist.  

Really, the only change in party dynamics I imagine from not having readily available barkskin potions, would be that Druids would suddenly bring a whole lot more to a party and most dungeons would be harder for teams without druids.  Since druid isn't the most popular class this would make dungeons a little harder.

Edit: As is, my main is a melee sorc with 8 con.  I sacrificed her durability because I wanted to do silly damage. (and because I thought the idea of an 18 base str sorc was hilarious)  I compensate for my extreme squishiness by using expertise. (my goal, in combat, is to be a flanker, but when enemies switch to attacking me, I toggle on expertise and enter "survival mode")  Removing Barkskin wouldn't change how my character plays at all.  It would just mean that I would be in a slightly worse condition when enemies switch to targeting me. (which basically means I'd just have to play it a little more careful than I do now, or I'd need to pickup improved expertise as an even better "Oh S***!" button)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 07:00:57 PM by LackofCertainty »

respawnaholic

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2012, 08:52:59 PM »
Right and cant hit anything...

Everyone has a different perspective. My answer to this, if we're talking about using expertise and improved expertise is, "That's what teammates are for." :)  It actually makes me feel smarter and more patient and stuff to sit there and soak blows while other people do the hitting. Like, "I don't need to have stats that do it all, I have the skill to synchronize with a group."

Yes but having barkskin potions simply allows for some more flexible options from a party as well. What I mean is maybe the guy that  took expertice would like to do something besides be the designated damage sponge encounter after encounter. As it is now party dymanics now means little more than "lets set up behind the door jamb and get one guy to draw them into us." Do we really need to remove ALL flexibility from a PC in favor of "party dynamics?"

How does barkskin make you more flexable?  It just gives you really cheap AC. (compared to the cost of other ac sources)  If you're using that logic, then the devs should put greater stoneskin potions into the vendors, because being able to absorb 20 damage from each attack lets our party be a lot more flexible.  That way everyone can focus on doing damage without worrying about keeping the enemies off our mages.  That just doesn't quite make sense to me.  

If you want to deal more damage, then you accept that you make yourself less tanky.  That's the general trade-off.  If I could be a two handed weapon user who power attacks and still has the same defenses as a sword and board expertise user, then why would anyone want to use a sword and board or expertise?  There would be no point to it.   I'm exaggerating, but the point of it is, if you can easily get ac up to a point where you don't need expertise, then expertise has no reason to exist.  

Really, the only change in party dynamics I imagine from not having readily available barkskin potions, would be that Druids would suddenly bring a whole lot more to a party and most dungeons would be harder for teams without druids.  Since druid isn't the most popular class this would make dungeons a little harder.

Edit: As is, my main is a melee sorc with 8 con.  I sacrificed her durability because I wanted to do silly damage. (and because I thought the idea of an 18 base str sorc was hilarious)  I compensate for my extreme squishiness by using expertise. (my goal, in combat, is to be a flanker, but when enemies switch to attacking me, I toggle on expertise and enter "survival mode")  Removing Barkskin wouldn't change how my character plays at all.  It would just mean that I would be in a slightly worse condition when enemies switch to targeting me. (which basically means I'd just have to play it a little more careful than I do now, or I'd need to pickup improved expertise as an even better "Oh S***!" button)

The point i was trying to make is that removing barkskin potions removes one more option a player has. You yourself are a kind of validation of that. You have a sorc....that gives you a pretty wide variety of options for tailoring to an encounter. the fact they have an 8 con is irrelevant next to the variety of spells they can use to completely nullify or mitigate incoming damage or spell effects. Better yet...play a FIGHTER with an 8 con. You'll find that extra +2 AC from barkskin alot more useful without stoneskin, greater stoneskin, mage armor, improved invisibility, flame weapon,PFE, haste, GMW, keen edge, buffed str, con, dx, acid sheathe, shadow shield, etc, etc, etc, ad nausem....but yeah...I guess if i could cast all those by resting every few minutes barkskin would seem like pretty small potatoes.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 09:11:11 PM by respawnaholic »

APorg

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2012, 08:57:57 PM »
Don't forget that for most classes that don't have great saves, a barkskin potion allows them to still have good Nat AC while also sporting a Scarab of Protection. So that's also an option that Barkskin potions offer: freeing up your amulet slot  for better saves.
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Emomina

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2012, 09:26:27 PM »
I can promise you that having barkskin potions sold at Degannwy is not harming the potency or value of a barkskin caster. Its just useful for when they are not around is all.
But even their availability does not change any of this from being true:

- Higher CL resulting in +4 or +5 versions
- Much harder to be dispelled
- Can make the whole party have it again and again and again without using any items
- Longer duration

I have a character casting the +5 version, I also have played many characters without any druid or plant domain allies. So I feel its totally balanced, great if you know one, but also playable without knowing one. And like has been stated, there frankly is not enough reagents for the playerbase to make their own. Even if there were two more treant related dungeons or areas added that would still be true. I don't really forsee a positive change from the proposal at all to be honest.

An example I can think of is my drow character, who when I am playing her, is quite reliant upon Barkskin and its especially true following the Magic Vestment nerf change. I am very happy she can now get them from the Halans instead of the elves. I would hate for it to be a case where I would have to look for Treants all the time. There was actually a period where I did that, so as to avoid having to go to Deganway. Its a individual case, and more the exception to the rule, but it seems to me that the arrangement we have now is the one that covers most bases.  I would not mind the price being increased though, but in the end  money is not an issue so it won't change how much people buy them.

That is my thoughts on the matter anyway.
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rabidsmily

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2012, 11:30:00 PM »
No! We need barkskin potions!

My friend who plays a druid got a girlfriend and is never online anymore!!!!!

A barkskin potion is never a substitute for even a half-assed druid, but if you remove barkskin potions it will break my party!

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Springer

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 11:57:06 PM »
If you want to deal more damage, then you accept that you make yourself less tanky.  That's the general trade-off.  If I could be a two handed weapon user who power attacks and still has the same defenses as a sword and board expertise user, then why would anyone want to use a sword and board or expertise?  There would be no point to it.   I'm exaggerating, but the point of it is, if you can easily get ac up to a point where you don't need expertise, then expertise has no reason to exist.

I assume you havent seen ab of the mobs in high end dungeons... Expertise is always useful on this server, always, and so is improved expertise, unless you are cleric of course.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:58:38 PM by Springer »
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LackofCertainty

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2012, 05:09:46 AM »
I can promise you that having barkskin potions sold at Degannwy is not harming the potency or value of a barkskin caster. Its just useful for when they are not around is all.
But even their availability does not change any of this from being true:

- Higher CL resulting in +4 or +5 versions
- Much harder to be dispelled
- Can make the whole party have it again and again and again without using any items
- Longer duration

I have a character casting the +5 version, I also have played many characters without any druid or plant domain allies. So I feel its totally balanced, great if you know one, but also playable without knowing one. And like has been stated, there frankly is not enough reagents for the playerbase to make their own. Even if there were two more treant related dungeons or areas added that would still be true. I don't really forsee a positive change from the proposal at all to be honest.

An example I can think of is my drow character, who when I am playing her, is quite reliant upon Barkskin and its especially true following the Magic Vestment nerf change. I am very happy she can now get them from the Halans instead of the elves. I would hate for it to be a case where I would have to look for Treants all the time. There was actually a period where I did that, so as to avoid having to go to Deganway. Its a individual case, and more the exception to the rule, but it seems to me that the arrangement we have now is the one that covers most bases.  I would not mind the price being increased though, but in the end  money is not an issue so it won't change how much people buy them.

That is my thoughts on the matter anyway.
From your points, I feel it's a lot easier for everyone to rebuff with their 100 bottles o barkskin if it gets dispelled compared the druid recasting it (since the druid will likely need a rest before having access to the spells again)
Also, the short duration doesn't matter when people have the aforementioned 100 bottles o' barkskin.

The other two I'll grant you, though.  Having a druid around is definitely nifty.  I think at this point my argument against it has mostly turned into a flavor one.  I'd rather have items with many uses of barkskin be reletatively common in the loot tables, rather than have the infinite bottles o' barkskin.

snipped
The point i was trying to make is that removing barkskin potions removes one more option a player has. You yourself are a kind of validation of that. You have a sorc....that gives you a pretty wide variety of options for tailoring to an encounter. the fact they have an 8 con is irrelevant next to the variety of spells they can use to completely nullify or mitigate incoming damage or spell effects. Better yet...play a FIGHTER with an 8 con. You'll find that extra +2 AC from barkskin alot more useful without stoneskin, greater stoneskin, mage armor, improved invisibility, flame weapon,PFE, haste, GMW, keen edge, buffed str, con, dx, acid sheathe, shadow shield, etc, etc, etc, ad nausem....but yeah...I guess if i could cast all those by resting every few minutes barkskin would seem like pretty small potatoes.

As the people in this thread have stated repeated, the barkskin potions are not an "option".   Saying, "Do you want to pay an insignificant sum to get extra ac that doesn't use up an item slot," isn't an option, it is a gift.  The barkskin pots in the game are "gimme" AC.  It seems like every melee character past level 6 has at least a full stack of them in their inventory.  That's not choice. That's not variety.  That is barkskin addiction on a global scale. :P

I bolded the only spells in that list that my character has access to, by the way.  I think you're confusing sorcs with wizards.  Wizards tailor themselves to encounters.  Sorcs pick a selection of spells and cast a lot of them. (my character is basically a mage armor/PFE/Bull's str buff bot for a party)    There are classes that come with a lot of options and there are classes that are straightforward.  If you to have tons of options, make a character that has tons of options.

My dex is also 8, and I use a two handed weapon, so it's not like my character is some AC goddess.  I have the AC of an off-tank, because my character is an off-tank.  I have focused on increasing my damage, so I do a lot of damage.  If my character focused on defenses, then I would be a lot more durable and my ac would be significantly higher. Again, this is how it works.  If someone specializes in Defense, they are the best in defense.  If you specialize in damage you are best in damage.  If you want to be able to do both, you'll be a pretty good tank, and a pretty good damage dealer, but if you are best at both something's wrong.  When I party, I am no where near as good a tank as a person who builds pure tank and gets my buffs thrown on them. Again, this is how it works.  Solo building isn't what the server is balanced for.  It is balanced for your mage and cleric and druid throwing their defensive buffs onto your fighter, and making him/her into a monster tank.  Then, they are meant to throw their offensive buffs onto your Rogue, so he can dissect enemies while they're bonking your tank.

Also, as a sorc with 8 con.  I have 36 hp at level 8 with toughness.  36.  A level 8 fighter with 8 con would have 72 at least, or 80 with with toughness. I go from uninjured to badly wounded in 1 hit from the scarier monsters in my level range.  The AC from barkskin helps me a lot, but it doesn't change the fact that I hate having dozens of bottles of barkskin in my inventory.   

Emomina

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2012, 05:20:46 AM »
One thing you are championing is that it makes the server feel more high magic to have people using barkskin potions?
What does that account for all the other 40 potion type we use?  Seems a weak argument.
I hardly understand why having an item with 50 charges would do to change anything, except make it cheaper.
I am not sure you realize how many of the charge items a mid to high level character can find. I have a character with like 8 brooches that he has found, and I don't even try to find them as its not a need.
brooch of shielding cost 2000 on the open market and that comes out to 40gp for +4 of deflection type (really short duration however)
Potion of barkskin is about 80 gp give or take some or 1800 or so at the higher levels..  Its +3 natural armor type (but does have a longer and useful duration)

Brooches are far and away the cheaper option, plus you do not to make it a errand to keep stocked with them and it does not sink your money.
If you take all of this into consideration...  its probably best the way it is.
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LackofCertainty

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2012, 05:48:14 AM »
One thing you are championing is that it makes the server feel more high magic to have people using barkskin potions?
What does that account for all the other 40 potion type we use?  Seems a weak argument.
I hardly understand why having an item with 50 charges would do to change anything, except make it cheaper.
I am not sure you realize how many of the charge items a mid to high level character can find. I have a character with like 8 brooches that he has found, and I don't even try to find them as its not a need.
brooch of shielding cost 2000 on the open market and that comes out to 40gp for +4 of deflection type (really short duration however)
Potion of barkskin is about 80 gp give or take some or 1800 or so at the higher levels..  Its +3 natural armor type (but does have a longer and useful duration)

Brooches are far and away the cheaper option, plus you do not to make it a errand to keep stocked with them and it does not sink your money.
If you take all of this into consideration...  its probably best the way it is.

The argument for the charge item is mainly that I think it's more flavorful to go to a high level pc merchant and try to buy this strange item that will give you lots and lots o' barkskin.... over running down to your local Degannwy-Mart and buying bulk barkskin.  Also, the value of a 50 charge barkskin item (in the toolset) is double what the cost of a brooch of shielding is, so I don't think it'd be on the same level of rarity.  Again, brooches exist in the server, but you don't see every level 6+ character walking around with a brooch.  You don't waddle up to some vendor and buy 3 brooches, you need to track down a PC for one, or organize a party to hunt for one. Barkskin, on the other hand, is everywhere, and it usually heavily stocked by every melee character past level 5.

High level characters are going to use everything, because they're high level and need every advantage (and have the cash to buy every advantage) to be able to dungeon.  The focus of this is the low end of the scale.  A low level character has a much easier time saving up 75 gold and waddling over to degannwy, than they do saving up 2 grand and finding one of the high end players who has brooches to spare.  That's why every melee and their brother packs barkskin, but you don't see brooches universally until you get to higher levels.

It seems like the majority of the responses to this are against it, so I guess I'll quit arguing for it, but I still think it's more flavorful to pack a strange trinket to get your barkskin fix, instead of carrying 100 bottles.

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2012, 11:34:15 AM »
I assume you havent seen ab of the mobs in high end dungeons... Expertise is always useful on this server, always, and so is improved expertise, unless you are cleric of course.

My experience with expertise and improved expertise is that its great for getting the attention of monsters while other party members kill it. If I am jumped and on my own its a death sentence. Using it outside of a group outing is guaranteeing the exhaustion system will kick in and when that happens its game over.
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 12:10:34 PM »
I'll be honest and say that the fact that Degannwy sells barkskin potions even after they were implemented in the crafting system was simply a matter of us having overlooked it. It is our general principle that NPC merchants shouldn't directly compete with PC merchants in this way. I doubt many would bother gathering the ingredients for barkskin potions and spend the time crafting them for the price you can buy them for at a NPC. Not to mention the inherit problem with the instant unlimited support that the NPC merchant offers.

That's a view, at least. But we are also tired of fighting over these things, which is really the main reason why it's just left be. Perhaps if it turns out there's significant playerbase support for it, or if we find ways to forwardly compensate it (by adding more alternative AC stuff?)

APorg

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »
I'll be honest and say that the fact that Degannwy sells barkskin potions even after they were implemented in the crafting system was simply a matter of us having overlooked it. It is our general principle that NPC merchants shouldn't directly compete with PC merchants in this way. I doubt many would bother gathering the ingredients for barkskin potions and spend the time crafting them for the price you can buy them for at a NPC. Not to mention the inherit problem with the instant unlimited support that the NPC merchant offers.

That's a view, at least. But we are also tired of fighting over these things, which is really the main reason why it's just left be. Perhaps if it turns out there's significant playerbase support for it, or if we find ways to forwardly compensate it (by adding more alternative AC stuff?)

The main problem with Barkskins, like a lot of these PC-driven consumables, is the question of volume of supply. Right now there's only one place to harvest treant sap that I know of and it's fairly slow. I think one run can net you maybe ~5 potions and then you have to wait for them to respawn.

If my PC were to start harvesting that area (remembering he'd have to compete over time and availability of these resources with other PCs), he'd probably only manage to craft enough for himself and his allies. To obtain a sufficient volume of potions to have a surplus to sell onto market would probably take more time and effort than it would be worth.

It's the same thing with other Potions, in my experience; the demand for potions is much vaster than their supply because most herbalists are also adventurers and thus craft mostly to fuel their adventuring career. But at least common herbs are easily available to a level 2 character -- so theoretically even a level 2 can become a master herbalist. It takes stronger PCs to kill treants, however, adding a further hurdle to supply that market.
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 04:56:37 PM »
The question is though if the logical answer to that isn't rather to ensure more availability of such ingredients. We could make other potions that gave AC boosts too (like shield and mage amour).

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 05:11:27 PM »
Shield we already have the brooch of shielding.

And no to mage armour potions.

Rather make more tree related creatures.

APorg

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »
Yeah, we already have Brooches of Shielding. We've also got +3 varnishes, which when applied to armour are about the same benefit as a Barkskin potion.

Actually, I I think the +3 varnishes are probably a good comparison. They are about the same difficulty in Craft level (insomuch as Herbalism and Alchemy difficulties compare). But despite the fact that there are many places where you can harvest the necessary elements to produce +3 varnishes, they're still relatively rare and expensive to produce. I think PCs trade them at around 200gp per vial, which is three times the price of a Barkskin potion, and you can bet that if there were no more cheap and plentiful Barkskins, that price would go up up up.

One factor to bear in mind here is that although separate items and new items could offer different types of AC boosts, most players still want to stack them up. When you're going up against that Caliban Gangleader or that Shadow Dragon or whatever, you don't just want one defensive buff; you want as many as you can get. That could mean a Barksin for Nat AC, a Brooch of Shielding for deflection bonus, Varnishes for +3 on both your armour and shield, etc. This is how non-powergamed PCs can survive at higher levels. (And heck, even the powergamed ones need the help... this is a tough server after all!)

All of which is to say that I think it's a complicated economic picture. The Barkskin potion plays the role of being one of the commonest, cheapest and most reliably-obtained Nat AC buffs in the game and there is no easy way to "wean" the player base off this with substitutes. If you wanted to remove Barkskin NPC merchants and hoped PCs would pick up the slack, I think you would need at least two or three more areas with treants in them -- preferrably one near Vallaki, one near the village and of course the current one in Hazlan.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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APorg

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 05:38:47 PM »
One more comment: I think completely removing NPC Barkskin merchants would be a mistake, too.

You should always have a NPC substitute in cases of failure of PC market. Bervis Honey or Morninglord Tonics are good substitutes for when PC markets can not deliver healing potions. Equally, it's probably a good idea to keep one or two NPC Barkskin merchants somewhere, but perhaps raising the price of the potions. Or something.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Sharauvyn

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2012, 07:10:18 PM »
As it is now party dymanics now means little more than "lets set up behind the door jamb and get one guy to draw them into us." Do we really need to remove ALL flexibility from a PC in favor of "party dynamics?"

There are soooo many different tactics a party can use, as things are. Or without barkskin at all.  But would you believe I've actually had people kinda-sorta get mad at me, both in character and out, for trying to get them to use some of them? :D

Mrjunkie

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2012, 09:39:35 AM »
I have never seen a issue with the barkskin potions.
They have add into the various new systems and items we have to level the playing field between casters and straight melee.

Rather than looking towards removing a system that has been inplace for quite some RL years, that has not been abused, but has always added to the playerbase.
Perhaps give crafted barkskin a edge over the commonly bought ones, either a extra ac or a longer duration?

And before the counter argument arises that if added ac/duration, it will cancel out the casters factor that they bring in.
If implemented properly the casters will always be more efficient.
Just gives the player based supply a edge.

My thoughts on the matter.

Iconoclast

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2012, 11:09:34 AM »
I've had one character that stocked up and used barkskin all the time, but I really don't care one way or another if they are always available.  They are nice, but they are not essential.

Quote
As it is now party dymanics now means little more than "lets set up behind the door jamb and get one guy to draw them into us." Do we really need to remove ALL flexibility from a PC in favor of "party dynamics?"

I disagree. Using the physical surroundings in a combat situation is just one factor in group work. A group of characters that started during the new-character-week have levelled into the mid-level range (ten or so), without depending on barkskin at all, due to group dynamics.  There were plenty times during the new-character week and since then, when I thought to myself, "Sure would be nice to icly learn about the barkskin potions sold nearby.  Could help our front liners," but as we've discovered, it really isn't necessary.  When a good challenge requires folks to do more than simply barge into the room for a free-for-all fight, without planning, that is when pvm is at its best.

Barkskin?  [shrugs] If I was playing a melee character, sure, I'd stock up, but if the option was no longer there, big deal. The game goes on, with or without easy access to barkskin potions.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:05:14 PM by Iconoclast »

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2012, 01:39:35 PM »
Another issue one should consider with the great abundance of barkskin potions that the NPC stock supplies is the fact that it makes druids less powerful (relatively) as the ability to have barkskin becomes one everyone can effectively hold.

Gorasin

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Re: Barkskin Potion Discussion
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2012, 01:54:11 PM »
Well for those of us who were not included in all the fun party dynamics and have to survive on our own and learn to live on our we need them. Go take your party dynamics and live with them. The rest of us left behind will learn and grow without you and with the fun barkskin potions.
The dark side is always there, waiting for us to enter, waiting to enter us.
Until next time, try to enjoy the daylight.