Author Topic: Armor sizes.  (Read 4563 times)

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Armor sizes.
« on: January 09, 2012, 03:06:09 PM »
I want to bring some up to your attention. This is about armor particularly. Since most of the armor is nonmagical, the crafted armor. Things should be taken in consideration.
This link has some profiles.
http://www.houseofgenius.com/images/dnd_silhouettes.jpg

This comes from the PHB.


Here are some other pictures of some armors I compiles.
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs19/i/2007/275/9/3/Stunted_leather_armor_by_Sebbal.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jwiedyk/ebay/armor.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i226/Plle200/Arms%20and%20Armour/Photographs/e014a.jpg



I choose chainmail and plate to be viewed. The others are links. Now if you look at the differences between the armors and the sizes of the races.
Tell me this. How can a halfling wear a suit of plate that was made for a human?
It cant be done. The size difference is too great that even with resizing it would be better to forge a new set. Chainmail on the other hand can just remove links to size it up.

This is what I think should be down. For heavy armors, particularly plate mail, there should be a race restriction that the smith selects on creation. This should help simulate the sizing of the armor and will prevent merchants and smiths from walking around with one size fits all plates. It doesn't make any sense.



Avatar6666

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2012, 03:09:33 PM »
Should also be a change of wieght, halfling in plate and human in plate both wieghts are not the same.


“In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil’s might,
Beware my power… Green Lantern’s light!”

Seniies

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2012, 03:20:45 PM »
Yeah that would be very hectic, massive amounts of scripts and codes, the vendors needing to sell 5 types of templates per armor type, people wanting the armor for smaller races to weigh less or more for half-orc's and caliban, smith's then wanting the ingot cost per armor to vary based on the race less for smaller more for larger, it just goes on and on and is probably best left to rping instead of game mechanics.

Avatar6666

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2012, 03:24:32 PM »
Buy one blank that is called plate male template, use the crafting to determine size , add the same amount of ingots and everthing and then make it, not that hard to do, One scripting change at the start of smithing and you can make different kinds of armor.


“In brightest day, in blackest night,
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship evil’s might,
Beware my power… Green Lantern’s light!”

Vespertilio

  • Never met a Dark Lord, not a
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1636
  • We can't stop here, this is bat country!
    • Messages from Nihil
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2012, 03:27:27 PM »
I've seen a lot of master smiths and leatherworkers, rp making armor to fit the pc.  Almost all the armor my pc sells is made by a smith such as Amaril who has a conversation with the pc discussing what backing they want, what kind of armor and so on.  The armor is custom made to fit that pc. I've seen plenty of other smith pcs over the years do much the same, make the armor specifically for one pc.



I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
  • ???
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 03:37:53 PM »
Half orc armour would look like this I think.

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 03:57:31 PM »
I rp the whole process with plate. Sizing it and all. Many PCs can contest to that. But when I asked a vardo character about some plate. Said who is that sized to. He says size to fit. I said to whom. The point is I see vendors and smiths walking around with plate and selling it with out consideration of how it is made. Use same amount of ignots, even same weight really unless you want to script it in. Just add a race selection so that this can't be abused. Plate armor should be an investment by the character. Not just some random item you need for AC. Its kind of a pet peeve.

I'm trying to make a chase with imagery so you know Im not just full of you know what.

Jay

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1610
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 04:02:58 PM »
Everybody has their pet peeves, some people dislike characters who use modern idioms in their language. Some people hate it when a character is described as beautiful despite having a charisma of 6.

The point is, it's up to you to role play to the standards you want to see for your character. It's not any players responsibility to enforce their ideals of RP on other players.

That's the GM's job  :GRIM2A:

LackofCertainty

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 05:01:11 PM »
As much as I'd like armor sizes, I don't think it'd be a good idea.

It adds a lot of tedious work, because every non-magical set of armor in the game would need lots of copies.  And if you're going to be that precise about the armor, why would you restrict it to heavy armor?  You say that a person could "Just remove links" from a set of chainmail, but how would you propose a person with no armormaking background do that without ruining the armor in the process?  Can you squeeze into a suit made for a child?  Because that's about the size halflings are.  If heavy armor deserve the specificity, then why not make every single armor item in the game from full plate to robes race specific and make people seek out tailors?  


If you personally want to be anal about armor sizes, then when you buy a non-magical set of armor from a PC merchant in game ask them to take a couple days to custom fit it to you.  It can create a little rp, and it doesn't bog down the devs doing pointless busy-work.


Edit:
I rp the whole process with plate. Sizing it and all. Many PCs can contest to that. But when I asked a vardo character about some plate. Said who is that sized to. He says size to fit. I said to whom.

Take advantage of that.  If the vardo comes to you asking for a random suit of plate armor, then you can brow-beat them for being idiots with your smith.  "What kind of slackjawed idiot are you?  How do you expect me to make plate mail for you if you can't even give me the person's measurements!? Get out of my smithy!"  You can rp it exactly the same without needing the devs to do all that extra work.  If a vardo is silly enough to get you an order for plate without bringing specific measurements, then send them back to the customer with a note pinned to their chest. :P
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 05:10:09 PM by LackofCertainty »

Exordium

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 1806
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2012, 06:01:19 PM »
One practical issue is, that race restrictions can be overcome with UMD (Use Magic Device) and UMD is tied to the price of an item. Hence, to get high enough UMD to not allow rogues mundanely wear mis-matching armoring, you'd have to rise the price by a lot.

I'm not sure if this could be overcome script-wise, but even if, I do find armor size a bit too much of a realism to have in - as rare as it is, otherwise I'm total realism fan. :P

Misan

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 06:14:03 PM »
A note in the description could overcome the UMD problem.

"This item is specifically sized for race.  It is not permitted to be worn with UMD.  Those caught doing so will be punished accordingly."

Just a thought.

LackofCertainty

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 07:23:50 PM »
A note in the description could overcome the UMD problem.

"This item is specifically sized for race.  It is not permitted to be worn with UMD.  Those caught doing so will be punished accordingly."

Just a thought.

Again, this doesn't solve the problem of all the busy work it'd put on the devs to make 5+ different versions of every single non-magical armor/clothes.   In fact it'd add to it, because they'd have to customize each description. (or write a script to churn out the different armors maybe, I don't really know anything about the nwn back end.)

Amon-Si

  • Inventor of the cat
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2418
  • Freelance troublemaker
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2012, 07:34:31 PM »
Maybe we should just praise the ones that do it right, thus encouraging everyone who has the time to RP it out.
If you don't have the time to wait for a smith, then RP for an hour just to get an item... Well, you shouldn't be penalised.
I know when Lash got her armor made and fitted I waited a couple of days, then we went all the way to Krofburg, then did the measurements, then made the armor, then tested the armor lol... All worth it, and highly reccomended, but not everyone has that kind of time. Hell, I don't usually have that kind of time!  :D

Misan

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 08:06:35 PM »
A note in the description could overcome the UMD problem.

"This item is specifically sized for race.  It is not permitted to be worn with UMD.  Those caught doing so will be punished accordingly."

Just a thought.

Again, this doesn't solve the problem of all the busy work it'd put on the devs to make 5+ different versions of every single non-magical armor/clothes.   In fact it'd add to it, because they'd have to customize each description. (or write a script to churn out the different armors maybe, I don't really know anything about the nwn back end.)

What I mean is all templates would contain that simple line of dialogue, and you could insert race at the creation dialogue.  No new templates for each race, just a script to add that variable description.

LackofCertainty

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2012, 08:53:44 PM »
A note in the description could overcome the UMD problem.

"This item is specifically sized for race.  It is not permitted to be worn with UMD.  Those caught doing so will be punished accordingly."

Just a thought.

Again, this doesn't solve the problem of all the busy work it'd put on the devs to make 5+ different versions of every single non-magical armor/clothes.   In fact it'd add to it, because they'd have to customize each description. (or write a script to churn out the different armors maybe, I don't really know anything about the nwn back end.)

What I mean is all templates would contain that simple line of dialogue, and you could insert race at the creation dialogue.  No new templates for each race, just a script to add that variable description.

I was under the impression that the devs need to actually make everything that can be crafted in the module.  So yes, they could script templates to let you select one of the racial types, but they'd still have to go into the module and make each of the five different racial restricted platemails that you actually get.  Might be I am speaking out of ignorance, because I really don't know how it all works.

Plus there are lots of non-player made non-magical armor as well.  So they'd have to make 5 variations for all of those and add them into the module.   In the end it sounds like a massive amount of busy-work to me.


Amon-Si's response pretty much sums up my opinion of it.  Everything that's being proposed in here can already be done in game through rp, and most smiths seem to do custom work already.  Why do we need to waste dev time implementing this when, in the end, it'd be a lot of work for a tiny, mostly aesthetic tweak?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 08:56:48 PM by LackofCertainty »

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2012, 09:35:08 PM »
A smith or merchant shouldn't be ask. Are you carrying plate?

You wont imagine how many people ask that. First off the character that is asking for plate would probably wear it. They would have to know plate is sized to the wearer, since they are trained to wear it efficiently, to fight in it, and to maintain it. Hence the heavy armor feat. 
So when they go from one merchant to the other asking for plate it should be no shock that they shouldn't find it just lying around. It has to be made for a particular wearer or existing modified to fit the wearer. Job of an armor smith isn't just to make armor but to resize and repair it when needed. Thats why weapon and armor smiths traveled with armies.

When I'm asked if I have plate, I just give them a funny look. I respond by saying I can make it.

If you look at steel plate on the server, it is actually a +1 plate with bonuses depending on backing. It is actually pretty powerful for this server especially for lowbies.

As far as buying clothes and armor from NPC merchants, you can just assumed it has been measured and tailored.

What I see as an abuse is that plate is mass produced then stock piled, without forethought of who or what will wear it. Its a high price item for the PC market and should be an investment for the character. So, it hurts those characters who tried to RP the creation of the plate and go through all the RP loops, when they can just jump to a merchant and buy now.

Question: Would you want your +9 AC now, or later?

I see it as an imbalance to the market. That is why I bring it up.

Amon-Si

  • Inventor of the cat
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2418
  • Freelance troublemaker
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2012, 09:54:48 PM »
A smith or merchant shouldn't be ask. Are you carrying plate?

You wont imagine how many people ask that. First off the character that is asking for plate would probably wear it. They would have to know plate is sized to the wearer, since they are trained to wear it efficiently, to fight in it, and to maintain it. Hence the heavy armor feat. 
So when they go from one merchant to the other asking for plate it should be no shock that they shouldn't find it just lying around. It has to be made for a particular wearer or existing modified to fit the wearer. Job of an armor smith isn't just to make armor but to resize and repair it when needed. Thats why weapon and armor smiths traveled with armies.

When I'm asked if I have plate, I just give them a funny look. I respond by saying I can make it.

If you look at steel plate on the server, it is actually a +1 plate with bonuses depending on backing. It is actually pretty powerful for this server especially for lowbies.

As far as buying clothes and armor from NPC merchants, you can just assumed it has been measured and tailored.

What I see as an abuse is that plate is mass produced then stock piled, without forethought of who or what will wear it. Its a high price item for the PC market and should be an investment for the character. So, it hurts those characters who tried to RP the creation of the plate and go through all the RP loops, when they can just jump to a merchant and buy now.

Question: Would you want your +9 AC now, or later?

I see it as an imbalance to the market. That is why I bring it up.

Yes, it is a shame that not everyone wants to play the same level of realism as you do, it's a shame for -them- because they lose out on the RP to be had with a proper smith.

A +1 item is relatively common, even in our little low magic setting, I mean +1 amulets and rings are easy enough to find, and there's much, MUCH more powerful armor in circulation than just +1 with +1 fort saves. Not everyone has the time to run the whole RP, some people just don't want to, but that's their loss, not yours.

I was happy to have my +4 ac later (I started with splintmail, after all) but I'm not going to try to force it on people who might only have a handful of hours a week who might not even share a timezone with a smith and who might place an order and have to wait RL weeks before seeing another merchant.

Misan

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2012, 10:20:45 PM »
Quote
I was under the impression that the devs need to actually make everything that can be crafted in the module.  So yes, they could script templates to let you select one of the racial types, but they'd still have to go into the module and make each of the five different racial restricted platemails that you actually get.  Might be I am speaking out of ignorance, because I really don't know how it all works.

Plus there are lots of non-player made non-magical armor as well.  So they'd have to make 5 variations for all of those and add them into the module.   In the end it sounds like a massive amount of busy-work to me.


Amon-Si's response pretty much sums up my opinion of it.  Everything that's being proposed in here can already be done in game through rp, and most smiths seem to do custom work already.  Why do we need to waste dev time implementing this when, in the end, it'd be a lot of work for a tiny, mostly aesthetic tweak?

The suggestion I'm making is for a single line option to add race descriptor into the item description upon creation, with the note that UMD is not an acceptable means for wearing the armor.  No new templates for each race, nothing any different in any regard save for the line detailing race in the description and explanation that wearing it by separate races is a violation.  It would take mostly an honor system by the players, but if that's what's desired, I think the descriptor is the easiest, least cumbersome or time consuming way to do it.

Personally, I always customize the template myself for any armor ordered, to replicate the sizing.  Then seek out smiths willing to accommodate such an order.

EberronBruce

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1116
  • Legos
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2012, 10:34:16 PM »
What Misanthrope is suggesting would work. Its just a string.

Emomina

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2645
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2012, 10:52:41 PM »
One man's realism is another man's minutiae.

Though having the heavy armors, like plate/chain come in a lighter weight small race only form would be enough of a compromise for me. but that's just because a halfling wearing 50 lbs of crap is astounding! But all in all, I don't think such is needed.  Every crafted armor I have ever gotten from a merchant was roleplayed as measured out, that't enough for me.
I survived the Blue Water Inn Massacre and all I got was this t-shirt.

dutchy

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 4952
  • Potm's own forum troll
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2012, 11:21:36 PM »
i think we should all realise theres only so much we can expect and get from this game, not the server but the game.
Tagdar Stonebeard- the lone statue
Mihas Mandruleanu- He is the law
Gurdan- priest of the allfather, and current head of the silverhand trading company

LackofCertainty

  • Undead Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2012, 11:57:06 PM »
Quote
snipped

The suggestion I'm making is for a single line option to add race descriptor into the item description upon creation, with the note that UMD is not an acceptable means for wearing the armor.  No new templates for each race, nothing any different in any regard save for the line detailing race in the description and explanation that wearing it by separate races is a violation.  It would take mostly an honor system by the players, but if that's what's desired, I think the descriptor is the easiest, least cumbersome or time consuming way to do it.

Personally, I always customize the template myself for any armor ordered, to replicate the sizing.  Then seek out smiths willing to accommodate such an order.

Do you guys really think that the turnover on steel armor is high enough to need this?  It seems to me like low level characters save forever to get their steel plate, and then they sit on it forever (sometimes real life years) before they get high enough level to find better stuff.  Is there really that much passing around?  Are there smiths out there that stockpile steel plate and hand it out to whoever they run into?

Any time that I've seen a character get steel gear, it has been rp'ed out as a custom order, and it has taken some serious time in game.  In fact when my friend who played Gigmos ordered his steel gear, it took him over a real life week to receive it. (maybe that's an outlier though?)  I have never seen anyone give a hand-me down steel anything in game, much less something like a human handing over their old steel armor to a halfling.  If it's purely on the other end of the coin, where you don't want merchants "stockpiling" armor, then don't sell it to them?  It's your choice if you want to do that.  Better yet, instead of being oocly upset about it, explain to them -ICly- why you can't/won't do that.   Am I just blind, or is this a non-issue?

I feel like there is a real undercurrent here of, "You're role playing wrong if you don't want to focus on the minutiae of armor rp."


Edit:
A smith or merchant shouldn't be ask. Are you carrying plate?

Why not?  Just because I take the heavy armor feat on one of my characters doesn't instantly confer any ooc knowledge about the processes involved in the creation or maintenance of heavy armor.  If it did, then that feat would give me a bonus to smithing/crafting.  That's as if you expect that anyone who goes to buy a TV suddenly becomes an expert on them.  That's not true even in the age we live in, where you could type in a few things and be instantly directed to a page detailing all the specifics of TV's.

The -only- thing the heavy armor feat means is that I understand how to fight while wearing it.  This is even more true if you jump back into a medieval-ish setting where you get guilds and talented craftsmen becomes secretive about their processes.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 12:05:43 AM by LackofCertainty »

Misan

  • Undead Slayer
  • ***
  • Posts: 142
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2012, 02:57:48 AM »
I tend to think it's not a big deal on a server like PotM either, but was offering a more convenient way for it to be accomplished, if that was the collective desire.  With PC bodies not being lootable in PotM, I don't really see the need for it, and you're right about the armor lasting ages and the turnover low.

Jay

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1610
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2012, 05:52:36 AM »
Everything he said

Seconded.
The Devs have much more important things to work on IMO.
For the record it's very rare you see a smith not RP out making custom armour becasue one of the few benafits of learning the craft is that you get to RP it.

Taty

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Armor sizes.
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 06:16:37 AM »
Quote
snipped

The suggestion I'm making is for a single line option to add race descriptor into the item description upon creation, with the note that UMD is not an acceptable means for wearing the armor.  No new templates for each race, nothing any different in any regard save for the line detailing race in the description and explanation that wearing it by separate races is a violation.  It would take mostly an honor system by the players, but if that's what's desired, I think the descriptor is the easiest, least cumbersome or time consuming way to do it.

Personally, I always customize the template myself for any armor ordered, to replicate the sizing.  Then seek out smiths willing to accommodate such an order.

Do you guys really think that the turnover on steel armor is high enough to need this?  It seems to me like low level characters save forever to get their steel plate, and then they sit on it forever (sometimes real life years) before they get high enough level to find better stuff.  Is there really that much passing around?  Are there smiths out there that stockpile steel plate and hand it out to whoever they run into?

Any time that I've seen a character get steel gear, it has been rp'ed out as a custom order, and it has taken some serious time in game.  In fact when my friend who played Gigmos ordered his steel gear, it took him over a real life week to receive it. (maybe that's an outlier though?)  I have never seen anyone give a hand-me down steel anything in game, much less something like a human handing over their old steel armor to a halfling.  If it's purely on the other end of the coin, where you don't want merchants "stockpiling" armor, then don't sell it to them?  It's your choice if you want to do that.  Better yet, instead of being oocly upset about it, explain to them -ICly- why you can't/won't do that.   Am I just blind, or is this a non-issue?

I feel like there is a real undercurrent here of, "You're role playing wrong if you don't want to focus on the minutiae of armor rp."


Edit:
A smith or merchant shouldn't be ask. Are you carrying plate?

Why not?  Just because I take the heavy armor feat on one of my characters doesn't instantly confer any ooc knowledge about the processes involved in the creation or maintenance of heavy armor.  If it did, then that feat would give me a bonus to smithing/crafting.  That's as if you expect that anyone who goes to buy a TV suddenly becomes an expert on them.  That's not true even in the age we live in, where you could type in a few things and be instantly directed to a page detailing all the specifics of TV's.

The -only- thing the heavy armor feat means is that I understand how to fight while wearing it.  This is even more true if you jump back into a medieval-ish setting where you get guilds and talented craftsmen becomes secretive about their processes.

I'm afraid I was involved in the chain of events that set this thread off. Legos was talking to an orc about full plate and Suz mentioned she had some with Legos questioning wether it would fit an Orc or not. While I admire that you rp each suit being made as a special instance for each owner I am not to thrilled with the rp you are trying to impose on me.

Because this is a game and Suz is not actually constantly present in Vallaki the logistics of providing smithed goods to players is difficult. Having had days where I have sold 4 suits of full plate I wonder what those transactions would have been like had I had to wait each instance and informed the smith of the measurements in advance. It would have taken forever and people in time zones not matching my own could well be left to wait many days before they could get what they wanted.

While perhaps you are the better player for it I have made it a personal mission to help newer characters to get decent equipment so they have a chance at surviving in a very difficult environment. The process involved to do this involves a considerable number of people because of the wide array of goods available. While your approach would certainly benefit you and and a few other smiths, and push merchants out of the process I am not sure it would greatly increase anyones enjoyment of the game other than perhaps that of the smiths. I have my doubts the average consumer, especially those in off peak time zones , would be all that thrilled with the armour acquisition process becoming more difficult.

I certainly think your approach to smithing is valid and shows great rp potential but why not just allow that the option should be there for those wishing it but does not need to be imposed on those that do not ? I cannot help but think your attitude of imposing these restrictions are to some degree motivated by self interest.

And yes, to the poster that inquired, Suz has a suit of full plate with her at any given time, though other heavy armours would require the process you described. Full plate being the largest seller has proved to be prudent to stockpile.

~Taty~
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 06:19:27 AM by Taty »