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Author Topic: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars  (Read 34834 times)

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2011, 07:11:25 PM »
It is redicolously easy, and any of the players currently complaining here, have been around the server long enough to know how effective Delivery runs are. Especially for a mage or druid[level 5]

So now you have to carry the delivered item and the body of your familar\animal companion, isnt that a bit much. I mean seriously are we not here to have fun. This is taking fun out of being one of these classes. We have an issue with one Familar and you make a huge change rather then just removing the familar. This also means every mage at low level is going to take the hardes to kill familar everytime.


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Kagetora

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2011, 07:23:24 PM »
It has nothing to do with the money (as said, easy enough to get).  Nor does it have anything to do with not wanting to play with others.  And I am sorry if some people are jerks and abuse their Familiars or harass others with them.  Welcome to Online RP.  A lot of people are asshats.   Nor does it have anything to do with not being able to summon something else to fight for you.  Hell, the Dev's didn't even make it a full corpse...just 0.5 pound remains when it dies.  I know...I tested it.  Inadvertantly, as the beast did what it always does...runs off on its own.

No...what it is about is ONE MORE DAMN INCONVIENCE to actually wanting to log on and go play.  Its one more PITA to have to deal with, yet another obstacle to actually having FUN.  Now every Druid, Ranger, Wizard, and Sorcerer has to essentially babysit an uncontrollable NPC if they want to use it at all.  Or resort to essentially OOC actions like Unsummoning.  Otherwise, the computer-controlled micro-brain rushes off into the jaws of everything you come across and dies.  Familiars and Animal Companions were actually useful before.  Now its just one more bit of drudgery.  Hell, the thought of someone running off with the remains of my Familiar or it ending up in the middle of an area I can't get back to without it is so chilling I may never summon it again at this point.

And why?  Because other people were jealous?  Because 1-2 of them were overpowered?  Or because a few asses abused them?  Seriously.  Between the pointless nerfs every so often, the Fatigue system, the XP system, and the obviously skewed "random" number generator (which makes me want to bash my keyboard and ragequit sometimes), this could just as well be a chatroom as opposed to a fantasy action RP game.  Or its getting there, rather quickly.

Plus, the original point stands.  Did Rangers and Druids really need a nerf?  As well as EVERY Wizard and Sorcerer?  Or just the one's that chose to use 1-2 overpowered familiars?

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2011, 07:29:30 PM »
It has nothing to do with the money (as said, easy enough to get).  Nor does it have anything to do with not wanting to play with others.  And I am sorry if some people are jerks and abuse their Familiars or harass others with them.  Welcome to Online RP.  A lot of people are asshats.   Nor does it have anything to do with not being able to summon something else to fight for you.  Hell, the Dev's didn't even make it a full corpse...just 0.5 pound remains when it dies.  I know...I tested it.  Inadvertantly, as the beast did what it always does...runs off on its own.

No...what it is about is ONE MORE DAMN INCONVIENCE to actually wanting to log on and go play.  Its one more PITA to have to deal with, yet another obstacle to actually having FUN.  Now every Druid, Ranger, Wizard, and Sorcerer has to essentially babysit an uncontrollable NPC if they want to use it at all.  Or resort to essentially OOC actions like Unsummoning.  Otherwise, the computer-controlled micro-brain rushes off into the jaws of everything you come across and dies.  Familiars and Animal Companions were actually useful before.  Now its just one more bit of drudgery.  Hell, the thought of someone running off with the remains of my Familiar or it ending up in the middle of an area I can't get back to without it is so chilling I may never summon it again at this point.

And why?  Because other people were jealous?  Because 1-2 of them were overpowered?  Or because a few asses abused them?  Seriously.  Between the pointless nerfs every so often, the Fatigue system, the XP system, and the obviously skewed "random" number generator (which makes me want to bash my keyboard and ragequit sometimes), this could just as well be a chatroom as opposed to a fantasy action RP game.  Or its getting there, rather quickly.

Plus, the original point stands.  Did Rangers and Druids really need a nerf?  As well as EVERY Wizard and Sorcerer?  Or just the one's that chose to use 1-2 overpowered familiars?

+1


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Emomina

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2011, 07:30:35 PM »
Pardon me for bringing this up, but recently when I brought up clerics and diamonds, your reasoning was that its so damn easy to get diamonds that whatever inconvenience it actually caused was negligible. This is no different, you seem quick to speak out against the inconvenience if it directly affects you and have shown no sympathy whatsoever to level 13+ clerics having to spend 13k-15k to use resurrection on fallen compatriots. Its all just a bit less convenience, but every change is made to lessen the IC convenience, not he OOC one. Its sort of expected that we will have the good graces to grin and bare it and not take it personally, to let it modify our character's normal behavior.

The word of advice I would give is to not make too much of a huff and puff over a change you dislike or disagree with. People have long memories in this community, and eventually you will play on under the new circumstances, so there is nothing to be gained from listing the drawbacks in such a tone you're using (the fabled "ruined PotM forever" tone. Chillax, mayne.
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Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2011, 07:32:22 PM »
Pardon me for bringing this up, but recently when I brought up clerics and diamonds, your reasoning was that its so damn easy to get diamonds that whatever inconvenience it actually caused was negligible. This is no different, you seem quick to speak out against the inconvenience if it directly affects you and have shown no sympathy whatsoever to level 13+ clerics having to spend 13k-15k to use resurrection on fallen compatriots. Its all just a bit less convenience, but every change is made to lessen the IC convenience, not he OOC one. Its sort of expected that we will have the good graces to grin and bare it and not take it personally, to let it modify our character's normal behavior.

The word of advice I would give is to not make too much of a huff and puff over a change you dislike or disagree with. People have long memories in this community, and eventually you will play on under the new circumstances, so there is nothing to be gained from listing the drawbacks in such a tone you're using (the fabled "ruined PotM forever" tone. Chillax, mayne.

Actually i agreed wiht you on this point and i still do.


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Emomina

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2011, 07:35:35 PM »
I was actually speaking to Kagetora  :oops:   But yes, I would give you the same advice; its inconvenient but it also fosters good things. See both sides, and all that.
PCs griefing your familiar is reportable too, just use the channels to bring it to light.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2011, 07:36:14 PM »
I see this as a good change aswell, mo.
Same as I did with the diamonds and ressurection.


I would also advice everyone to atleast test a new system out for 2-3 weeks before bringing feedback, and then presenting it in a good manner.
The way we are currently doing just annoys the Devs, and makes them less likely to listen to us all.

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2011, 07:38:57 PM »
I see this as a good change aswell, mo.
Same as I did with the diamonds and ressurection.


I would also advice everyone to atleast test a new system out for 2-3 weeks before bringing feedback, and then presenting it in a good manner.
The way we are currently doing just annoys the Devs, and makes them less likely to listen to us all.

Well first they would need to listen to change something and i have not seen any changes no matter what the player base opinion's are, so discussing it latter does not make a difference.


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HellsPanda

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2011, 07:51:46 PM »
Our Devs have done alot of various changes to systems based on feedback, they rarely outright remove a new system, but then again rarely does the playerbase agree on what scripts are wrong.

But off the top of my head a few changes to the server that have been done based on Playerfeedback.

- Exhaustion - it has been tweaked because our players feedback, to the point its hardly much of a hassle, unless you get stuck in extended fights

- crafted crossbows- changed on request by a player who dropped by for a shortwhile, who disagreed with how the crossbows where represented in game.

- alchemy - lots of changes, especially in the aquisition of the bigger/badder ones, aswell as putting in new ones we as a playerbase felt made sense.

- storage - this system was implimented because over quite alot of time we as a playerbase said one was needed.

Vespertilio

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2011, 08:03:57 PM »
I see this as a good change aswell, mo.
Same as I did with the diamonds and ressurection.


I would also advice everyone to atleast test a new system out for 2-3 weeks before bringing feedback, and then presenting it in a good manner.
The way we are currently doing just annoys the Devs, and makes them less likely to listen to us all.

Well first they would need to listen to change something and i have not seen any changes no matter what the player base opinion's are, so discussing it latter does not make a difference.

With the diamonds added as a requirement to pc raise/resurrection, based on player feedback from in game experiences, diamonds were added to more npc merchants and to loot tables all over the server. Diamonds are weightless and can be traded with pcs, sold, carried by pcs to help clerics or to pay back pc clerics for ic raises and so on.  This change was a direct result of player feedback.



I kind of doubt all mages will suddenly select the toughest familiar as a result of this change, anymore than they were already being selected.  There are many players who select a mage's familiar based on rp, for ic reasons, not ooc mechanical considerations.  Players have actually in the past indicated an interest in more rp based familiar selections such as frog, toad and mouse.  I've seen plenty of mages with bat, raven or house cat familiars over the years.


The one question which does come to mind is in regards to the skeletal bat, because it isn't alive and has the undead template if I'm not mistaken.  With undead MPCs such as wights, a create undead scroll is used to raise them.  I'd personally be one of those players in favor of the skeletal bat being replaced with one of the more rp based familiar requests like a frog, toad, or mouse.


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Dire Corby

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2011, 08:04:13 PM »
I am totally behind some kind of requirement to rez your familiar, rather than treating it as a disposable resource.

However, speaking from my very limited experience of this:

There should be multiple locations for a raise, or better yet, let it stay with the PC and raise with a cost.  Let's not have to rely on the church as the source for raising pets and familiars, it doesn't even make sense really and it's a super chore for characters like, say, caliban, or MPCs.

I am totally with a cost being associated with a char using their animal as cannon fodder.  Let's just make it direct and easy, especially for those chars who have IC reasons to avoid the church....in fact, please let me repeat, raising one's pet or familiar should in no way be tied to the church!  Let us do it directly, with our own characters, the way the bond was established in the first place.

Give a simple gold piece cost to raise a familiar.  I think that would be best.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 08:17:15 PM by Dire Corby »

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2011, 08:21:11 PM »
Well first they would need to listen to change something and i have not seen any changes no matter what the player base opinion's are, so discussing it latter does not make a difference.

With respect, perhaps you need to read over the most recent changelog again. Players have discussed the desire for a change to how the crowbar works, how unbalanced the loot spawn is in Sullen, and the lack of potions in Port and the Village. All of these were addressed, though I admit no knowledge of the exact extent of the changes. When I was a DM/Dev on the PW I played on previously for over six years, Dor Maeglin, many things were discussed behind the scene, but they were all in the interest of the player and creating a better environment. Not everything was brought before the players previous to the change, because it was deemed ineffective in the end due to the delay it would cause in waiting for players opinions, and even then, there would still be some amount of grief among players if a change was implemented when a few expressed a desire to not see the change implemented. I agree wholeheartedly with HellsPanda on giving this some time. I have faith that the Powers That Be would not force this change if it caused a great amount of displeasure among the playerbase unless they believe they have good reason to, and seeing how functional the server is and how strong the community is still so late in the life of NWN, I have no doubt whatsoever in their reasoning.

Since I do not play a character who has a familiar any longer, I will graciously concede to the opinions of the players who do use them. The last thing I will reiterate is give this time and post your experiences with the change, may they be positive or negative, and it will give the Devs a better idea as to if they should leave the change as is, revise it, or scrap it entirely. As mentioned before, we're all here to have fun, all of us, even if some DMs might have a borderline demented desire to permanently and irreparably scar our character's psyche. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 08:23:11 PM by Folex »

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2011, 08:26:18 PM »
Agreed, I'm a HUGE fan of this idea.  Maybe it will discourage people from bringing their familiars everywhere they go [cough] in the church [cough] and it doesn't really make sense for Liz to rez someones bone bat, or demon snake, or assassin imp...the church isn't the place for familiar rez's. 
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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2011, 08:42:52 PM »
I really don't think casters need another nerf, and as a player who has a companion, I don't want another gold sink or another incovenice to playing, to have to turn around every time the AI screws up and ask Liz to raise a wild man eating brown bear. Immersion breaking much? But I've been on PW worlds long enough to know Dev's don't roll back systems just because the players it effects dislike it, so instead I ask what's the trade off? if we're crippling casters again what do they get to balance it out?

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2011, 08:44:30 PM »
It's wonderful to have so much activity in this topic thread for once ;-)

I don't agree though that familiars and animal companions aren't there for their roleplay purpose. It's probably right that they were designed as they were in NWN  to provide meat shields for casters, but that was for single player considerations.

Yes, we are - if you prefer that formulation - here to have fun. But it's not just the typical "entertain-me" fun. It's a story driven, roleplay oriented, shared narrative kind of fun. In that context, I feel the negatives strongly outweighs the positives of having immortal, easy to summon familiars and animal companions - to the extend that all this fuss (despite it's usual occurence) even somewhat surprises me. There's absolutely no roleplay reasoning this should be so.

Of course, there's a balance element to it, but if at all making some classes inferior, there's much better ways to address that. Improving aspects of the AI is definitely something we'll look at, and the rest will, as mentioned, be assessed through feedback. But I don't personally think that this change has made spellcasters less valuable to a party than any other class, nor that it has even made them inferior to other classes in terms of soloing. You can still use your meat shield, and probably in the same way you used to - it's just no longer completely devoid of risk.

...

All this said, I'm pleased that many of you readily see and remain open to the positive this change may bring about.

Aahz

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2011, 08:46:37 PM »
The word of advice I would give is to not make too much of a huff and puff over a change you dislike or disagree with. People have long memories in this community, and eventually you will play on under the new circumstances, so there is nothing to be gained from listing the drawbacks in such a tone you're using (the fabled "ruined PotM forever" tone. Chillax, mayne.

God forbid if one actually has a dissenting opinion.
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Dire Corby

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2011, 08:56:27 PM »
Let me add this for clarity:  This system is already in place, in test mode.  I am responding to a currently tested system, not positing a potential change.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2011, 09:04:33 PM »
None of us have never had anything against a differing opinion. The discussion is open here, even as we disagree. But we have minded some people consistently being narrow minded, grievous and mischievous in the presenting of their opinions as pitted against those of others.

APorg

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2011, 09:07:57 PM »
I certainly think there should be an alternative to having your familiar raise;  after all, one option for any caster is to summon a new one entirely, is it not? Perhaps this would effectively mimic an owner-enabled "raise" facility whereby the caster pays the raise cost to be able to summon a new familiar/companion.
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herkles

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2011, 09:16:04 PM »
I actually want to hear from soren or another developer, how this works. as to me, this sounds intriguing but I want to know just how it works.


Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2011, 09:47:51 PM »
None of us have never had anything against a differing opinion. The discussion is open here, even as we disagree. But we have minded some people consistently being narrow minded, grievous and mischievous in the presenting of their opinions as pitted against those of others.

Since we are going down this road, and we are...I suggest you think of some sorta of barding or armor for dogs and familiars. If they truely are companions that die it only makes sense that you would want them armored as best as you could afford and they could carry.


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Norture

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2011, 09:59:28 PM »
Yes, I want to craft something like this:

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2011, 10:02:55 PM »
Well maybe a little less flashy then that....be great if that was chaihuahua Armor....ROFL


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Norture

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2011, 10:12:23 PM »
Cat armour.

Edit: Here's some dog armour.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 10:15:16 PM by Norture »

APorg

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2011, 10:14:07 PM »
Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo