Author Topic: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars  (Read 34832 times)

Taty

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Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« on: December 31, 2011, 03:07:29 AM »
So if Johny Necromancers Assassin Imp dies he is supposed to take it to the ml church to get it raised ?

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2011, 04:59:29 AM »
What low level person is going to have enough gold to get thier badly impared famililar raised??? You just made it sorta of a handy cap to use it at low levels where they need the summon's more.... :( :(


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Rave

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2011, 05:32:02 AM »
I have to agree. I do think these changes are great, and good.

I just think that the familiar handycap change should be implanted from level 6 or so, to help low level mages and wizards manage on their own at lower levels. I mean, so far summmons are not that great to take for adventures because of the low duration, and at first few levels, even killing minks can be difficult for new characters that have like 2 level 1 spell slots, and with a 0 ab or even a minus ab for ranged weapons, let alone melee daggers and staves.

While also on the subject, could we tweak the pixies a bit more, to have them less of a pick lock useful?

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2011, 05:35:40 AM »
Regardless, I feel better about these changes than I have many changes past. I applaud the Dev team for them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 05:37:30 AM by Folex »

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2011, 06:51:37 AM »
Familiars and animal companions will never become badly impaired, so you will only ever need raise dead for them.

I realise this change may hurt the abilities of low level mages, but one thing the new character week made clear was how exceptionally powerful familiars are at these levels - usually on par if not exceeding the power of a same level fighter. This is only enforced by the fact that their death only meant that you had to rest once to bring them back. I'd much rather that the mages had to rely on meatshield PCs.

But most importantly (as mentioned) people tended to not think of their familiar or animal companion as being that - someone who travels along you, something to protect and keep alive just as other characters.

Rave

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2011, 11:16:54 AM »
Do familiar gets into bleeding state, aswell? so mages can save them, with potions?

Avatar6666

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 12:24:29 PM »
Familiars and animal companions will never become badly impaired, so you will only ever need raise dead for them.

I realise this change may hurt the abilities of low level mages, but one thing the new character week made clear was how exceptionally powerful familiars are at these levels - usually on par if not exceeding the power of a same level fighter. This is only enforced by the fact that their death only meant that you had to rest once to bring them back. I'd much rather that the mages had to rely on meatshield PCs.

But most importantly (as mentioned) people tended to not think of their familiar or animal companion as being that - someone who travels along you, something to protect and keep alive just as other characters.

I believe most people saw the assassin Imp is to much at low levels, but if you put a pixie in thier place, they die alot faster. So why not just adjust or get rid of the Assassin Imp?? Its what is mostly causing this issue anyway?


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Dhark

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 12:48:52 PM »
FAN-bloody-TASTIC !!! More care of & inclusion of fammiliars/companions into RP can only be a good thing.  :clap:

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 01:01:02 PM »
FAN-bloody-TASTIC !!! More care of & inclusion of fammiliars/companions into RP can only be a good thing.  :clap:

I personally do not agree... :? :? :?


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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2011, 01:06:03 PM »
Yet another reason to hoard all the gold you possibly can.  :?
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Dobian

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2011, 01:19:22 PM »
I think the idea of making you pay to raise your dead familiar/pet sounds good in theory, but in practice it will only result in people unsummoning their familiars/pets in the middle of fights, which will look ooc.  Face it, the role of the familiar/pet is to act as a meat shield.  They are not supposed to last long in heavy combat, and are there to draw attention away from the caster.  I think making you pay to raise them will seriously discourage people from making new casters (I wouldn't consider it now) because of the onerous cost of raising at a low level, and the high danger of unsummoning them in combat, and push higher level characters into grinding/hoarding gold more so they can avoid having to unsummon in combat to avoid raise cost.  Remember, the familiar/pet itself is a way to balance casters with fighters.  If you nerf that, then I think things become unbalanced in favor of the non-casting classes.


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APorg

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2011, 01:49:26 PM »
I think the idea of making you pay to raise your dead familiar/pet sounds good in theory, but in practice it will only result in people unsummoning their familiars/pets in the middle of fights, which will look ooc.  Face it, the role of the familiar/pet is to act as a meat shield.  They are not supposed to last long in heavy combat, and are there to draw attention away from the caster.  I think making you pay to raise them will seriously discourage people from making new casters (I wouldn't consider it now) because of the onerous cost of raising at a low level, and the high danger of unsummoning them in combat, and push higher level characters into grinding/hoarding gold more so they can avoid having to unsummon in combat to avoid raise cost.  Remember, the familiar/pet itself is a way to balance casters with fighters.  If you nerf that, then I think things become unbalanced in favor of the non-casting classes.

My Wizard didn't really use her familiar until level 9. And even then it was mostly for RP purposes. Until then, she used summons, and she could clear out dungeons on her own that my paladin would struggle. (Admittedly a lot slower than my paladin due to a greater need to rest, but them's the breaks.)

Familiars are useful but should not detract from the perspective that, as ever, the best companions are other PCs. I imagine this nerf is a bigger deal if you're used to a solo-ist, individualist outlook, but if you're used to playing a caster as part of a team, this is not a nerf that will stop you or hurt you from doing so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 01:53:26 PM by aprogressivist »
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Dobian

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2011, 02:11:34 PM »

My Wizard didn't really use her familiar until level 9. And even then it was mostly for RP purposes. Until then, she used summons, and she could clear out dungeons on her own that my paladin would struggle. (Admittedly a lot slower than my paladin due to a greater need to rest, but them's the breaks.)

Familiars are useful but should not detract from the perspective that, as ever, the best companions are other PCs. I imagine this nerf is a bigger deal if you're used to a solo-ist, individualist outlook, but if you're used to playing a caster as part of a team, this is not a nerf that will stop you or hurt you from doing so.

Sure, in theory, but in practice, you don't always solo because you are an individualist, but because you simply cannot find people online to group with. (most often that is the reason)  But let's say your character is the rugged individualist who goes it alone (like a ranger or druid).  That is a valid character concept and shouldn't be nerfed.  The new rule discourages making such a character.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 02:30:47 PM by Dobian »


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Sharauvyn

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2011, 02:42:04 PM »
I think it's a good idea, in general theory, to treat companions and familiars as requiring a raise or resurrection. The problem I see is that these creatures don't fully obey player commands. If there is a hostile creature in sight,  you can't rein  the dang thing in, because no matter how many times you command it to hold ground, it still goes charging off. I don't know how many times I've had my companion die because it ran off to follow a foe that fled, went out of commandable range, and then died because it ran into more enemies and I couldn't call it back or unsummon it, when I was still engaged with the original foes.  Even when it does fight foes I want it to fight, it's very difficult to get it to back off when an enemy turns on it, unless I want my main PC to draw all kinds of AoO's and stop contributing attacks of her own, just to get on the other side of the fight and drag the companion out of melee.  And this doesn't even get the enemy off its back most of the time, because the enemy pursues.  Companions draw AoO's every single time they enter  melee, because you can't cause it to slow down as it approaches and avoid them, and this can result in the *entire enemy force* turning their attention on the companion, this being a result of the animal's actions which you can't fully control.  Under most conditions, the companion is such a tactical nightmare that it either follows  behind the party as an emergency reserve, or I don't use it at all.  The only time I really use it is when I'm travelling across the countryside by myself at night, or with at most two travelling companions. It's virtually useless in dungeons and in parties over three in size, because of how hard it is to control.  Making it cost 1000+ gold to raise if it dies is only going to make it that much more seldom used.

I wouldn't mind having some price to pay for raising a companion, but full price at 100 per level is too much. Maybe 20-50 per level, but not 100.  Either that, or give the player far, far, FAR more control over what an animal companion actually does.

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2011, 02:57:23 PM »
Is this just for familiars or does it apply to animal companions too. I cant say Ive really been paying attention to it, but im prtetty sure the pig has died once or twice over the past few days.

As far as raising familiars goes I dont really care one way or another, but if the original intent of this change was to force people to treat their familiars as more than throw away meat shields between rests wont this just encourage budding spellcasters to MORE LIKELY pick one of the genuine fighting familiars since their chance of survival is higher anyway? I mean...people dont pick the asassin imp because of its role playing oppurtunities. they pick it because up till about level 8 or so it fights better than a fighter. I dont really see how having to raise the familiar will really change all that much. Players are already invested in raising and the chore of raising simply by sticking their head in a cave in some out of the way place. Logistically its just one more member of the party, and spellcasters tend to need alot less gold than other classes anyway.

I dont think having to raise them will end up being a big deal, but I also dont think having to raise them will change anything in terms of the dynamic of how their used either.

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 03:09:09 PM »
Is this just for familiars or does it apply to animal companions too. I cant say Ive really been paying attention to it, but im prtetty sure the pig has died once or twice over the past few days.

As far as raising familiars goes I dont really care one way or another, but if the original intent of this change was to force people to treat their familiars as more than throw away meat shields between rests wont this just encourage budding spellcasters to MORE LIKELY pick one of the genuine fighting familiars since their chance of survival is higher anyway? I mean...people dont pick the asassin imp because of its role playing oppurtunities. they pick it because up till about level 8 or so it fights better than a fighter. I dont really see how having to raise the familiar will really change all that much. Players are already invested in raising and the chore of raising simply by sticking their head in a cave in some out of the way place. Logistically its just one more member of the party, and spellcasters tend to need alot less gold than other classes anyway.

I dont think having to raise them will end up being a big deal, but I also dont think having to raise them will change anything in terms of the dynamic of how their used either.

I believe its for both familars and animal companions.


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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2011, 03:09:59 PM »
It's realistic & when someting adds to the dread and realism of this server I'm all up for it!

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2011, 03:18:59 PM »
What Sharauvyn said +100.  It would be one thing if you COULD actually control your familiar/animal companion with any sort of regularity, but...it just doesn't happen.  Thats the truth, pure and simple.  A couple other point as well...

Its one thing for my Wizard's familiar to have to be Raised on death.  Its another thing entirely for my Druid's (or a Ranger's) Animal Companion to have to be Raised.  For starters, the Familiar is a lot better at taking damage from the standpoint of the buffs the Wizard has access too.  If I cast Mage Armor, Cat's Grace, Endurance, Bull's Strength, Stoneskin, Pro. from Evil, GMW, Flame Weapon, and Improved Invis on my Familiar, and then Haste it, it STILL dies in any REAL fight.  It's AC is still too low, it has only 5+Con HP per level, and no real abilities to speak of, essentially having a shortsword (1d6) +3 +1d4 fire damage.  Hell, sometimes I even waste potions on it just to make it a TINY bit better (Barkskin and the like).  Now, compare that to a Druid's companion...who will be lucky to get Barkskin, Bull's, Stoneskin, and GMF.  Awaken at higher levels...still not even close to comparable.  Not EVEN CLOSE.  And the Ranger?  Their Companion will get Cats and GMF.  Thats IT.  PLUS no Summons to back them up.  Good luck with that.  But they still pay the same cost for their Companion dying?  Did the Ranger and Druid classes suddenly need ANOTHER nerf?   :shock:

And, as for the RP aspect, sure, thats great...but thats not what Familiars are for in NWN, unlike PNP.  If I am with a group, I don't even SUMMON my Familiar...not enough spell slots to go around, and, being inherently uncontrollable, they do nothing but screw things up in most situations.  Since it isn't there, so much for RP.  It only comes along when I am either alone, and need it, or with one or maybe two other people.  I use it occasionally for window dressing, but people get so snippy most of the time if you take it ANYWHERE near civilization, its ridiculous.  And its not even like we are talking about a Demon or Devil or anything...its just a big wolf.  Which, granted, I can see the Barovians being deathly afraid of...but other PC's?  Really?

Overall, from a purely mechanical point of view, I could care less if my Wizard has to raise her Familiar once in a while...but this is pathetically unfair to those with Animal Companions.

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2011, 03:24:05 PM »
I'd be totally cool with, like, deleting assassin imps too. I really do not like how people tend to RP them. I used one once specifically for the purpose of RPing abusing the damn thing. Yelling at it, sending it off to its doom, punching it if it came back alive. Stupid imps. @familiar to make it whimper and cower, that's right who's going to be annoying and sidestep circles around me now huh imp!?!

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2011, 03:27:10 PM »
Is there any good reason the death of a familiar or animal companion shouldn't mean death? The point that animal companions sometimes act erratically is a valid concern that could be looked at, but otherwise, I don't see any IC or OOC reasoning that they should be immune to death.

Taty

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2011, 03:31:04 PM »
I think the idea of making you pay to raise your dead familiar/pet sounds good in theory, but in practice it will only result in people unsummoning their familiars/pets in the middle of fights, which will look ooc.  Face it, the role of the familiar/pet is to act as a meat shield.  They are not supposed to last long in heavy combat, and are there to draw attention away from the caster.  I think making you pay to raise them will seriously discourage people from making new casters (I wouldn't consider it now) because of the onerous cost of raising at a low level, and the high danger of unsummoning them in combat, and push higher level characters into grinding/hoarding gold more so they can avoid having to unsummon in combat to avoid raise cost.  Remember, the familiar/pet itself is a way to balance casters with fighters.  If you nerf that, then I think things become unbalanced in favor of the non-casting classes.

I hope you are wrong, because you need casters to do anything. The reality is it will affect certain types of players more than others. My wizards familiar is a pet, not a dungeon buddy. Won't affect me one bit. What concerns me is the realism compromise that will come with it. Can you seriously see asking Liz to raise your dead assassin imp ? I have to think that would fall under the ignoring NPC's rule. So I'm going to suggest something that is probably overdue. An evil cleric that will raise anything, Tieflings, drow, assassin Imps, criminals etc. At least that way we arent compromising realism.


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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2011, 03:39:34 PM »
The drain should have an evil calbian NPC cleric IMO.


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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2011, 03:47:49 PM »
The drain should have an evil calbian NPC cleric IMO.

They have Doc and I would think he'd raise familiars just like he does pcs?


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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2011, 04:13:42 PM »
Is there any good reason the death of a familiar or animal companion shouldn't mean death? The point that animal companions sometimes act erratically is a valid concern that could be looked at, but otherwise, I don't see any IC or OOC reasoning that they should be immune to death.

what happens when the server resets, Are the DM's going to raise familar's and or animal Companions, Most caster's dont have alot of strength are they going to have to drag a body around for weeks to gain enough gold to raise them, thier is alot of unanswered questions. On another Note , i think it would be alot more informative if you actually made a section for suggested changes, So when these changes come up Dm's, Dev's, and players can discuss such change rather then the panik fest that is happening here and this way we know as players something is coming out. Communication is a key to your playbase rather then just reading it in a simple udate notes...

My two cents.


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Taty

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Re: Rez Cost for Animals/Familiars
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2011, 04:26:56 PM »
The drain should have an evil calbian NPC cleric IMO.

They have Doc and I would think he'd raise familiars just like he does pcs?

When did he start doing that ?