PC Diffusion by Terror

[Springer]

IMO there should be more consequences for player actions (not just in the night but overall actions). And there should be limit aswell... I mean how many more tortures and mutilitions can person endure before going completely insane of all these sufferings it endured. Yes for example, cut off arm could be regenerated with regenerations spell, but it is extremly painful. How many tortures one character can endure before damaging his psycho permanently (not just for few months or weeks)?
After all mind isnt as resilient as body...

[Taty]

Wouldn't say I am "pushing hard" for anything, just kicking idea's around. There is also a dramatic difference between risking closure because you choose to try and kill an MPC (which you have complete control over) and being cut down by a player who you werent in conflict with and had no real good justification to do so (even the supposed justification did not hold up if one scrutinized the facts). To me the former is reasonable and the latter is not.

[Jay]

Wouldn't say I am "pushing hard" for anything, just kicking idea's around. There is also a dramatic difference between risking closure because you choose to try and kill an MPC (which you have complete control over) and being cut down by a player who you werent in conflict with and had no real good justification to do so (even the supposed justification did not hold up if one scrutinized the facts). To me the former is reasonable and the latter is not.

That's the point though, it's all relative. One persons "Reasonble" is another persons "OMG! U SUK!" it's why although the current system may be seen as "Soft" it gives a better overall and broader look at a players behaviour rather then just one person, be they PC or DM.

[Kagetora]

The complaints about people ignoring the entire "Old Night" thing are overdone, IMO, anyway.  Its one thing to punish people for ignoring RP by standing around chatting, setting up shop, etc. in the Outskirts at night.  They are blatantly ignoring some core concepts of the module.  But, OTOH, if I log on my character for the first time that day, and find myself, say, at the fishing lodge or Midway, and its hour 19 (7pm), shall I be punished by being forced to sit there for the next hour+ and not play with anyone?  Or, can I ignore the whole "Old Night" concept, swig a potion/cast a spell, run back somehwere invis, and start playing with people?  Because, frankly, thats the exact same thing, simply for different reason.  Shall I be punished for that with permadeath, or the loss of all my items, or being driven insane with torture?  Do I need to set up some form of timer in my house that tells me what time of day it is in the module, and not play at night now?  Shall 50% of the time simply be unplayable?

If someone is stupid/brave/foolhardy/ignoring basic concepts enough to set up shop at night in the Outskirts (something I have not personally seen, mind you), AND ignores simple warnings, it may be appropriate for a DM to spawn a monster, gank them, and strip their corpse bare.  "OMG!  I just lost all 27 magic bags full of stuff, all my personal gear, and my gold!"  That would certainly drive the point home.  But just because most characters are deathly afraid of the night does not mean ALL of them have to be, and sometimes its just a matter of not wanting to log out and come back in an hour and a half before you can play.  Try to keep that in mind.

[Jay]

The complaints about people ignoring the entire "Old Night" thing are overdone, IMO, anyway.  Its one thing to punish people for ignoring RP by standing around chatting, setting up shop, etc. in the Outskirts at night.  They are blatantly ignoring some core concepts of the module.  But, OTOH, if I log on my character for the first time that day, and find myself, say, at the fishing lodge or Midway, and its hour 19 (7pm), shall I be punished by being forced to sit there for the next hour+ and not play with anyone?  Or, can I ignore the whole "Old Night" concept, swig a potion/cast a spell, run back somewhere invis, and start playing with people?  Because, frankly, that's the exact same thing, simply for different reason.  Shall I be punished for that with permadeath, or the loss of all my items, or being driven insane with torture?  Do I need to set up some form of timer in my house that tells me what time of day it is in the module, and not play at night now?  Shall 50% of the time simply be unplayable?

If someone is stupid/brave/foolhardy/ignoring basic concepts enough to set up shop at night in the Outskirts (something I have not personally seen, mind you), AND ignores simple warnings, it may be appropriate for a DM to spawn a monster, gank them, and strip their corpse bare.  "OMG!  I just lost all 27 magic bags full of stuff, all my personal gear, and my gold!"  That would certainly drive the point home.  But just because most characters are deathly afraid of the night does not mean ALL of them have to be, and sometimes its just a matter of not wanting to log out and come back in an hour and a half before you can play.  Try to keep that in mind.

Spawning monsters in the Outskirts just encourages the servers "X-Men" to stay outside at night with their arms folded looking for trouble trying to prove how "Badass" they are.
The merchants that set up at night are generally Caliban or other high OCR characters who can't be out in the day for obvious reasons, this at least is a little more reasonable from an IC perspective Rather rathen simply ignoring the atmosphere of the server.

Being accosted when you're making a run through the night can be a fun part of the game, and contrary to popular opinion most MPC's and DM actually have little interest in simply killing the first player they come across.
MPC's especially can go for hours, days or even weeks without anyone to talk to so when they have a chance to engage in RP they will often do so rather then just greifing someone.
A good example of this is i had an aMPC who would confront people on the bridge near the "Warning Wolves" sign in northern Vallaki at night and demand to know why they were trespassing on the territory that their own kind had left for the wilds (as he was a werewolf) it lead to some good RP, and he'd generally slap a "Curse" on them if they showed subtle terror or remorse, and maybe have a brief fight if the RP escalated to hostilities before running to rejoin his "Pack" across the water.
Nice little scene and everyone has some fun, and a few light consequences.

[Meriana]

How many tortures one character can endure before damaging his psycho permanently (not just for few months or weeks)?
After all mind isnt as resilient as body...

This would vary with the characters, I imagine, and while constitution might have a bit to say, I think the mental attributes would be the ones more relevant. Force of personality, awareness of surroundings and intelligence... I can see all the classes both standing against and falling quickly to torture... As well as the good alignments suffering more from torture, as it goes against what they stand for, presumably. Neutrals might have a view where it ultimately does not matter, and evils might curse themselves for their weakness and long for revenge... Of course, it can be reasoned that all those folks are mad already.

As for things not being feary enough and how to counter it - I personally find it very fun with (both positive and negative) IC consequences. Deformity, poverty, blahblah blahblah whatever gruesome horror can be brewed. I do not think more closures sound fun, since "they end role-play, instead of cultivating it further." That is, of course, unless the character's existence simply does not make sense any more, and is purely detrimental at large. But I feel something might have gone awry at an earlier point of time if it has come to that...

Rambleramble, here, look, thoughts.

[HellsPanda]

It would fall under Will I think

[Meriana]

It would fall under Will I think

Whether falling mad mayhaps but what form would likely differ...
I am just having great fun picturing a "mad" low wis high int high cha character.

[Ercvadasz]

It would fall under Will I think

will and fort

But i say there are other ways to hand out consequences. Curses. Character avatar alterations, OCR raises.
Hell what i would like to see is a killer firewall barring the safehouse entrances:P

run for the temple folks! *suddenly walls of flames emerge before the door*
Not today boys! Muwhahahahahahahahahaha!

The other thing, about to terror missing at the outskirts is: Whenever something happens, a high level character charges out from the temple or the inn. Hard to do anything if they allways interfere.(And sadly many a times they rush for the XP, or to show how badass they are.) A few punishment examples may make them reconsider i think. Like they rush out to defeat whatever is out there, and by killing something they actually do....well something that they did not intend. (Like killing a good alligned character, npc whatever.)

[DM Erebus]

It's about scales, right? Is receiving a crippling punishment for loitering at the Outskirts at night appropriate? Not if you consider the possible scale of transgressions - the riskiest things to do you can do, not limited to; Bombing the citadel, killing a vistani, tresspassing in castle ravenloft, moutihng off to Azalin etc, etc.

In the second, high-risk cases, there is a very real risk of severe character damage, and this is appropriate. Getting perma in a random MPC attack or werewolf outskirts spawn would lessen the gravitas of the high-end stuff.

[Vespertilio]

Some time ago, my pc used to set up shop in the outskirts during the day.  The Outskirts seems to be a center for DM events and MPCs and as such there would occasionally be weird things happening during the day.  It always seemed ic and sensible to pack everything up and not try to sell at those times since what merchant wants to risk losing everything because they continued selling during a lightning storm or attack or ongoing plague situation.  What reasonable person wants to run a shop in a war zone if they have a choice not to.

Night or day, if the Dms and staff don't want Vallaki outskirts to be badass characters propping up trees central waiting for some one to bring it, they should consider using more plots and hooks to lure pcs to other areas of Barovia or other domains.  When players miss Dm events by acting ic and sensibly going inside, while the hard chargers stay out and rush what ever MPC/NPCs are about, all that does is encourage and reward more of the same behavior imo. 

It might be telling that one time a dm said to me after a pc of mine saw glowing eyes in the bushes heard snarling and ran inside; "that's the first time I've ever given anyone xp for being smart".
 It was also the first time I'd ever been rewarded for acting ic and showing fear in a way that fit my character.  Far more often it's xp and rewards for being reckless and impudent while showing reasonable fear/caution/prudence means you miss out on events.

[KBlackwell]

I have to agree with Vesp here.  Far more often than not, the players who do retreat inside, are the ones who are seem to be forgotten most.  As a player, I do feel a bit cheated by this.  Especially since the overall atmosphere of the server seems to be focused on psycological horror rather than the 'oogly-boogly' mosters.

Instead of having monsters charging in and leaving a cloud of red mist and initiating the event by whoever's dumb enough to jump into it, maybe lure those who are standing around cautiously or those hiding inside.  My assumption is they'd be a bit more RP orientated and more fun to play with than those whose instinct is to 'click on the red 'till it's dead'.

[respawnaholic]

Problem here is the inability of the staff to enforce consequences. They can't perma people which is about the only thing people will fear, everything else can be sorted with a greater restoration spell.

 To create true fear of old Night there should be an Old night consequences rule. If you are out at night for any reason other than trying to get to shelter from the place you appeared when you logged in you are fair game for the dms to do anything to, mutilate, closure , imprison, whatever.

It wouldn't hurt to empower MPC's in a similar way. If you engage an MPC in any way that is not an attempt to flee you can be closured by them
Suddenly that werewolf looks a bit scarier doesn't it ?

Giving any one player the power to terminate somebody story is a big responsibility and can be (to varying degrees) open to abuse. As it stands a GM can force closure if the majority of the team feel it would be appropriate, and even then they still try and do it in a way that satisfies the players wishes.
I'm supprised you're pushing hard for this Taty, considering your reaction to having a single player decide an appropriate response would be to "Closure" Suzzanah for you for three months. (Weather that was right or wrong is a moot point and not relevent to this thread)

There are more to consequences then being closured, some "Tolls" I've had to pay for being out after dark are.
 - A mutilated face that had to be covered in thick bandages that were hard to speak through for a week.
 - Brain damage, playing like a simpleton for a week or two.
 - Amnesia.
 - Blindness.
 - Theft of items and gold,
 - Having my characters heart ripped out and stolen form his chest and left with a powerful magical MPC, leaving him with a feeling of "Loss" after being raised.
 - Being killed and having my body left with a note of warning pinned to it in the outskirts.
 - Miscellaneous torture to varying degrees.

All these things cultivate fear, and respect of the night, a respect that is passed on when the PC tells tales of what happened to him to newer characters. But more importantly they cultivate furthering role-play, not simply ending it.

+1. and by the way...how IS Morticia doing?

[Jay]

Problem here is the inability of the staff to enforce consequences. They can't perma people which is about the only thing people will fear, everything else can be sorted with a greater restoration spell.

 To create true fear of old Night there should be an Old night consequences rule. If you are out at night for any reason other than trying to get to shelter from the place you appeared when you logged in you are fair game for the dms to do anything to, mutilate, closure , imprison, whatever.

It wouldn't hurt to empower MPC's in a similar way. If you engage an MPC in any way that is not an attempt to flee you can be closured by them
Suddenly that werewolf looks a bit scarier doesn't it ?

Giving any one player the power to terminate somebody story is a big responsibility and can be (to varying degrees) open to abuse. As it stands a GM can force closure if the majority of the team feel it would be appropriate, and even then they still try and do it in a way that satisfies the players wishes.
I'm supprised you're pushing hard for this Taty, considering your reaction to having a single player decide an appropriate response would be to "Closure" Suzzanah for you for three months. (Weather that was right or wrong is a moot point and not relevent to this thread)

There are more to consequences then being closured, some "Tolls" I've had to pay for being out after dark are.
 - A mutilated face that had to be covered in thick bandages that were hard to speak through for a week.
 - Brain damage, playing like a simpleton for a week or two.
 - Amnesia.
 - Blindness.
 - Theft of items and gold,
 - Having my characters heart ripped out and stolen form his chest and left with a powerful magical MPC, leaving him with a feeling of "Loss" after being raised.
 - Being killed and having my body left with a note of warning pinned to it in the outskirts.
 - Miscellaneous torture to varying degrees.

All these things cultivate fear, and respect of the night, a respect that is passed on when the PC tells tales of what happened to him to newer characters. But more importantly they cultivate furthering role-play, not simply ending it.

+1. and by the way...how IS Morticia doing?

She sucks *canned laughter*

[Vespertilio]

+1. and by the way...how IS Morticia doing?

Morticia was permanently destroyed a few months back now.  [sadfeyface]

[herkles]

Some time ago, my pc used to set up shop in the outskirts during the day.  The Outskirts seems to be a center for DM events and MPCs and as such there would occasionally be weird things happening during the day.  It always seemed ic and sensible to pack everything up and not try to sell at those times since what merchant wants to risk losing everything because they continued selling during a lightning storm or attack or ongoing plague situation.  What reasonable person wants to run a shop in a war zone if they have a choice not to.

Night or day, if the Dms and staff don't want Vallaki outskirts to be badass characters propping up trees central waiting for some one to bring it, they should consider using more plots and hooks to lure pcs to other areas of Barovia or other domains.  When players miss Dm events by acting ic and sensibly going inside, while the hard chargers stay out and rush what ever MPC/NPCs are about, all that does is encourage and reward more of the same behavior imo. 

It might be telling that one time a dm said to me after a pc of mine saw glowing eyes in the bushes heard snarling and ran inside; "that's the first time I've ever given anyone xp for being smart".
 It was also the first time I'd ever been rewarded for acting ic and showing fear in a way that fit my character.  Far more often it's xp and rewards for being reckless and impudent while showing reasonable fear/caution/prudence means you miss out on events.

I agree with all this.

One thing I could say is that MPCs should be able to ask for fear/horror checks, as I remember asking a dm once in the past and being told that was for dms not MPCs. don't know if that is the case or not anymore don't know. but that could help add to the scenes IMO.  but what jinx says is good advice.

[Emomina]

Wise words spoken by Vespertillio, she paints the reality of potm in one post.

[respawnaholic]

+1. and by the way...how IS Morticia doing?

Morticia was permanently destroyed a few months back now.  [sadfeyface]

That sucks. She was a great character.

[Garland Blackmore]

As much as I agree, i'd like to see this thread get back on topic.

[APorg]

Or, can I ignore the whole "Old Night" concept, swig a potion/cast a spell, run back somehwere invis, and start playing with people?  Because, frankly, thats the exact same thing, simply for different reason.  Shall I be punished for that with permadeath, or the loss of all my items, or being driven insane with torture?  Do I need to set up some form of timer in my house that tells me what time of day it is in the module, and not play at night now?  Shall 50% of the time simply be unplayable?

That reminds me of the time the Headless Horseman chased Marcus because he'd stayed up too late brewing potions.

I bet a DM never saw a PC down a Potion of Cowardice faster!

[BalorVale]

Sorry but I do not feel AMPC's or MPC's can fix this, It just becomes bragging rights and 10 trips to lizuca for everyone outside and your AMPC or MPC is dead, no horror just outright slaughter, thats what this has become, we need to seperate high levels and low levels or this problem will never end.

[Vespertilio]

Sorry but I do not feel AMPC's or MPC's can fix this, It just becomes bragging rights and 10 trips to lizuca for everyone outside and your AMPC or MPC is dead, no horror just outright slaughter, thats what this has become, we need to seperate high levels and low levels or this problem will never end.

I don't think this is a solution, the reason why is this;

The AMPCs I've seen in the port, were not immediately attacked simply for being red, they were rp'd with.  There is a mix of levels in the port, because even though it isn't designed for starting characters, there have been a few characters such as Absalom Nightlyre, Edmond Montte, Matthieu Montte among others who pretty much started in the port, they were there at level 2 and committed to residing in the port. From low to high there is a general mix of levels among those who reside in the port and it works.  I've seen higher levels emote firing warning shots rather than hit a low level AMPC or MPC and risk outright killing it in the port.  I've seen attempts at creating horror by AMPCs and MPCs reacted to with in a sense of sharing a story, a horror story that is mutual.  AMPCS/MPCS making efforts to have a story, psychological horror and so on, and the other characters reacting to that.  In many cases higher level characters stepped aside and let the story be told between the AMPC/MPC who were of a more mutually challenging level. (One thing that might be fun for the higher level pcs is for AMPCs that commit to being outside of Barovia's Vallaki area, could start at a higher level, and thus have a bit more ability to hold their own when things do come to the action portion of a horror story involving those higher level pcs.)

I'm not sure why this is the case in the port, but really, regardless of location, I've found that away from the outskirts hub, in Barovia, in other domains, folks seem to be a bit more willing to rp and interact with fear/horror/antagonism that didn't result in immediate attacks/fighting. The Drain is another example, I've seen rp there of mixed level pcs that had aggression/horror/conflict with an underlying sense of ooc respect to mutually rp with one another and it worked.  It doesn't work 100% of the time in any location, but I have noticed that it seems to happen more often, away from the Vallaki outskirts.

[LackofCertainty]

I don't like when DM's or AMPC or Evil Doods try to do scary events in the western outskirts.  It is the core of the server still, and doing so is (for me) about the same as someone trying to do a horror event set in the mall of america.  It doesn't work, because there are too many people coming and going.  One of the most used bits in horror seems to be isolation, or being far from safety.  Having an encounter directly outside of the temple that is most people's base comes off as less horror and more slasher flick to me.

I -love- whenever I get evil attention, be it from a DM, a MPC, or an evil dood, but the outskirts is not the place for it.  

Here is a prime example of why.

*setting the stage*
A couple of weeks or so ago, I was trying to get two of my friends to start playing ravenloft. (if you guys saw the three dwarven brothers, one of them was involved in that, and we were working on getting a 4th)  Now, after much work, we convinced the 4th guy to get in game and try out the server with us.  We waited around in the vistani camp for a while, (he was having Cep issues) and then we wandered over to the church and were sitting in there.   Good news! He figured out how to get in, and was making his dwarf.  Okay, so we were going to go meet him.

Once I stepped outside I knew we had a problem, because there was a bunch of mist around the outskirts. (aka DM time)  We were promptly chased back indoors to the temple, which left us in a rather crumby position.  It was hour 20-ish, which meant that we had a solid real life -hour- before we could head over to meet up with my friend without going massively ooc about it, and just sprinting through the area and ignoring the DM.  That meant that my friend was basically isolated in the vistani camp.  We apologized and told him that we wouldn't really be able to get to him for a while.  He was alone in the camp, and bored.  He decided to explore the Gremshika cave for a bit, got himself killed, respawned once, and then he was out of time to play.  

No surprise he hasn't given the server a second try.

Isolating people from being able to meet up with other people is a bad idea on a server that is all about interactions between players, and droping any sort of Evil roadblock in the outskirts does just that.


In addition to the crappy side effects that evil stuffs in the outskirts can cause, I just all around don't think it's a good place for horror.  When you bump into a DM or a MPC while you're waaaaay out there is was more stressful.  You realize how far from safety you are and sometimes it can even put you in a place where your back is against the wall.  The event I was in on the trip to the silver mines was scary.  The time my group bumped into a vampire out over on the road to Zeklos was scary.  Hell, even when I've run into calibans or DM stuff in the sewers it's scary.  When I run into stuff in the outskirts, it makes me feel like a child playing tag.  I take five steps and then I'm in the safe zone, and you can't get me, na-na-na-na-boo-boo.   

[respawnaholic]

I don't like when DM's or AMPC or Evil Doods try to do scary events in the western outskirts.  It is the core of the server still, and doing so is (for me) about the same as someone trying to do a horror event set in the mall of america.  It doesn't work, because there are too many people coming and going.  One of the most used bits in horror seems to be isolation, or being far from safety.  Having an encounter directly outside of the temple that is most people's base comes off as less horror and more slasher flick to me.

I -love- whenever I get evil attention, be it from a DM, a MPC, or an evil dood, but the outskirts is not the place for it.  

Here is a prime example of why.

*setting the stage*
A couple of weeks or so ago, I was trying to get two of my friends to start playing ravenloft. (if you guys saw the three dwarven brothers, one of them was involved in that, and we were working on getting a 4th)  Now, after much work, we convinced the 4th guy to get in game and try out the server with us.  We waited around in the vistani camp for a while, (he was having Cep issues) and then we wandered over to the church and were sitting in there.   Good news! He figured out how to get in, and was making his dwarf.  Okay, so we were going to go meet him.

Once I stepped outside I knew we had a problem, because there was a bunch of mist around the outskirts. (aka DM time)  We were promptly chased back indoors to the temple, which left us in a rather crumby position.  It was hour 20-ish, which meant that we had a solid real life -hour- before we could head over to meet up with my friend without going massively ooc about it, and just sprinting through the area and ignoring the DM.  That meant that my friend was basically isolated in the vistani camp.  We apologized and told him that we wouldn't really be able to get to him for a while.  He was alone in the camp, and bored.  He decided to explore the Gremshika cave for a bit, got himself killed, respawned once, and then he was out of time to play.  

No surprise he hasn't given the server a second try.

Isolating people from being able to meet up with other people is a bad idea on a server that is all about interactions between players, and droping any sort of Evil roadblock in the outskirts does just that.


In addition to the crappy side effects that evil stuffs in the outskirts can cause, I just all around don't think it's a good place for horror.  When you bump into a DM or a MPC while you're waaaaay out there is was more stressful.  You realize how far from safety you are and sometimes it can even put you in a place where your back is against the wall.  The event I was in on the trip to the silver mines was scary.  The time my group bumped into a vampire out over on the road to Zeklos was scary.  Hell, even when I've run into calibans or DM stuff in the sewers it's scary.  When I run into stuff in the outskirts, it makes me feel like a child playing tag.  I take five steps and then I'm in the safe zone, and you can't get me, na-na-na-na-boo-boo.   

Alot of truth and good points to this example but the problem is this IS a gothic horror server and having 5 or 10 charactrs sitting around outside after dark chatting completely undermines the flavor of the server. To use your own example its pretty hard for a new player to take anything on the server seriously if the first thing the see is a group of people joking around the outskirts after dark.  Idont think any one thing can or will fix this, and argueably it isnt even a real problem so much as one of those "cognitive dissonance" moments between what the stated mission goal is and what really is on a server. This is a problem shared by NWN as a whole and not simply POTM, but on POTM given the nature of the type of sertver it is the discrepency can seem more pronounced.

I still say giving players the freedom to simply and easily relocate away from the main Vallaki hub is the easiest way of allowing those players looking for persistent world story to not notice or interact with the persistent world story- light crowd hanging around the outskirts.

[dutchy]

Those that truly want more story do travel more and set up base in another part of the server. Factions excluded ofcourse