Author Topic: Druids and Shifters  (Read 12572 times)

Badelaire

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #50 on: January 30, 2012, 03:05:25 PM »
The infrequency of shifter apps makes me think it's not a priority of resources at the moment. If we address one class and their lack of abilities, we should be addressing them all for balance's sake. Such as shadow dancer's getting their charisma based shadow conjuration and evocation or Blackgaurd's full spell list.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 03:09:46 PM by Badelaire »

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #51 on: January 30, 2012, 03:08:16 PM »
The infrequency of shifter apps makes me think it's not a priority of resources at the moment.

Madness is a huge part of the Ravenloft Domain, as Dark Powers corrupt minds easily, what was once natural could become something......different.... Shifters can also be used to represent druids who have fallen from the path of nature and delved into darker means.

..What? How did this become talking about adding forms to what druids and shifters can be? I really don't see the relavance, but since you bring it up.

To the extend of my knowledge and the requirements of the shifter PRC on NWN, you 'have' to be a druid in order to be a shifter. Which means you are obligated to obey the oaths of a druid, if you're inclined to keep your druidic powers (and the shifter's wildshaping is a profound knowledge of forms, and a druidic power, according to how it works in our current mechanics.) If you're breaking your oaths, at least how I see it, you're druidic powers would fade. Its the same way if you were a cleric branching away from your deity, or a paladin breaking your oaths, you'd lose your powers, despite however means you were corrupted.

Exordium

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #52 on: January 30, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »
The infrequency of shifter apps makes me think it's not a priority of resources at the moment. If we address one class and their lack of abilities, we should be addressing them all for balance's sake. Such as shadow dancer's getting their charisma based shadow conjuration and evocation or Blackgaurd's full spell list.

Sometimes I feel the lack of applications for shifter might well be due to their weakness.

From experience with my level 5 shifter, 5 druid, I can say that even with druid buffs the forms are often noticeably weaker than unbuffed fighter. They just lack AC, AB and Damage to be worth it - for example, Drider (best form at level 5) with druid buffs has 12 AB, 1d8 + 3 damage, +2 weapon, 26 AC if the druid has both tumble and parry. This is considerably less, than what a fighter of that level would have. Fighter would likely be having 16 AB, 1d8 + 1d4 + 4 + 2 damage, AC 28, etc.. Only benefit is the +2 weapon enchanment, but not many monsters require +2 at level 10. On top of that, if fighter gulps down Barskin and Bull's potions, he's even more stronger.

Contrary to what many say, the only form I actually found usable against fights of my level, was wyrmling form, and this is simply due to Improved Expertise and endless Fire Breath. :roll:

Vaku

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2012, 06:14:54 PM »
3) The classes would suffer from the Thats-Cool syndrome, which means a large majority of people would make and play the class.

I'm curious as to why this is placed with reasons that would object to an update to the polymorph system. I for one, know I would not waste my time playing a class I did not personally think would be cool.

For instance, if I like the idea of samurai and their sword use, I would be inclined to work with a Fighter and eventually app for a Weapon Master. Is there a problem there?

Furthering this example, suppose a blockbuster samurai movie comes out and inspires several of the players here to make samurai-esque characters. Are they at fault for being so very  moved to make something "That's Cool"?

If you're playing a class to avoid its 'cool factor' I, just don't know what to say, other than that's very ironic.

Furthermore, in your post you claimed that because the class can be,

counted on one hand.

It somehow loses priority.  This "That's-Cool" syndrome should do oodles in restoring a balance to that class where it can be counted on, two hands?

In all honestly, this is a small community with a few amount of statistics at hand, so this gut-measurement can't really serve as a definitive judgement. If players are now calling out for change, the call should be answered with change, as in time this could very well become a popular issue.

And even now we see the popularity grow, because you fear an update to the polymorph system would cause players to think Shifters are cool.

------

Shifters are a rare breed of druid, yes, it does seem a bit silly if there was several of them running around at the same time.

This statement makes me feel even if Shifters were a rare breed, that's hardly a reason not to update the polymorph system. I'm sure there are many phenomena in place that can attribute  to a reasonable growth in the class frequency, primarily the in-game reason of the  Dark Powers.

The infrequency of shifter apps makes me think it's not a priority of resources at the moment. If we address one class and their lack of abilities, we should be addressing them all for balance's sake. Such as shadow dancer's getting their charisma based shadow conjuration and evocation or Blackgaurd's full spell list.

Here, we're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, updating a class, is updating a class, but coding CHA calculations and integrating a finished product are different types of coding. I think if we're not in the coder's shoes, it really isn't our call to demand the class be put last in a list of things to do.

What is our call, as the community is request that the developers see what can be done, and keep alert to the fact that there is a demand for change.

So if, it turns out, implementing a tool like this is more feasible than the seemingly more popular Shadow Dancer's demands, why not fulfill the community request?

BalorVale

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2012, 06:53:32 PM »
In accordance with Vaku, Obviously this is a very popular topic, the number of posts alone show this, and many people would find this an astounding addition. Shifters as it stands are not good, they are underpowered in combat and thier forms do not make much sense.

If the developers were to take the time to incoperate this it would breathe life into a dead class. Not only that but the RP that would be created would be worth the effort ten-fold, you only need to do the work once, the community obviously desires it, so instead of telling us what is and is not worth the developer's time; Support the idea if you want to see it incoperated the community will decide, posting contraries based on the sole purpose of saying "Its not worth thier time" Is irrelevant unless you are a developer yourself.

Draxiss

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2012, 08:28:22 PM »
1) I beleive how PotM handles new polymorph forms is through a hakpak, so it would require them to 'recreate' every form as a polymorph template.

Actually, this is a hakless method; it's simply a script.

And, everything Vaku said, +1, because I would've said something similar, but it wouldn't have sounded nearly as convincing.

I'm pretty sure that, mechanics-wise, shifters are just like every other class. People will argue its overpowered or underpowered, and I can't tell the difference.
I suggest this because it creates many more possibilities.
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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2012, 09:31:54 PM »
If it isn't being done through the hakpak than it isn't being done in unison with the server's systems that are already in place. I just downloaded and tested out the scripts on my own, and while I'm not a developer, I've suggested things like this in the past, and I understand their expectations of the systems they add to the server. Heres the problems I see with it already and why it would need reworked.

1) As the system doesn't run off of polymorphs, which it should for any non-humanoid shape, It just changes your appearance and has the polymorph animation.
    a) You can use any items you'd normally be able to use if you were a humanoid, when you are non-humanoid shapes (like beetles or dragons)
    b) You still have all of your equipped gear in these forms too, including necklaces, armor, and such.. which would normally meld into your forms if it were non-human.

2) The method of how it handles storing forms is very clunky. Having an item for 'every' shape seems way ridiculous, they should of used a rest menu or text command to change shapes.

3) Special abilities are even more clunky, creating an ability-item for each creature.


Now don't get me wrong, that system is pretty cool.. but the process of installing it and combing it to the servers standards of scripts seems like alot of work for not as much benefit.


BalorVale

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2012, 11:11:23 PM »
If it isn't being done through the hakpak than it isn't being done in unison with the server's systems that are already in place. I just downloaded and tested out the scripts on my own, and while I'm not a developer, I've suggested things like this in the past, and I understand their expectations of the systems they add to the server. Heres the problems I see with it already and why it would need reworked.

1) As the system doesn't run off of polymorphs, which it should for any non-humanoid shape, It just changes your appearance and has the polymorph animation.
    a) You can use any items you'd normally be able to use if you were a humanoid, when you are non-humanoid shapes (like beetles or dragons)
    b) You still have all of your equipped gear in these forms too, including necklaces, armor, and such.. which would normally meld into your forms if it were non-human.

2) The method of how it handles storing forms is very clunky. Having an item for 'every' shape seems way ridiculous, they should of used a rest menu or text command to change shapes.

3) Special abilities are even more clunky, creating an ability-item for each creature.


Now don't get me wrong, that system is pretty cool.. but the process of installing it and combing it to the servers standards of scripts seems like alot of work for not as much benefit.


This just means your placing responsibility on the players, meaning that the shifter class wouldn't be given out willy-nilly, this just means that we would have to be mature about the forms and use them within reason IE: No beetles in the ML Temple and special abilities are not the point. Its the RP the skin provides; And the RP is always most important.

Draxiss

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2012, 12:52:54 AM »
If it isn't being done through the hakpak than it isn't being done in unison with the server's systems that are already in place. I just downloaded and tested out the scripts on my own, and while I'm not a developer, I've suggested things like this in the past, and I understand their expectations of the systems they add to the server. Heres the problems I see with it already and why it would need reworked.

1) As the system doesn't run off of polymorphs, which it should for any non-humanoid shape, It just changes your appearance and has the polymorph animation.
    a) You can use any items you'd normally be able to use if you were a humanoid, when you are non-humanoid shapes (like beetles or dragons)
    b) You still have all of your equipped gear in these forms too, including necklaces, armor, and such.. which would normally meld into your forms if it were non-human.

2) The method of how it handles storing forms is very clunky. Having an item for 'every' shape seems way ridiculous, they should of used a rest menu or text command to change shapes.

3) Special abilities are even more clunky, creating an ability-item for each creature.


Now don't get me wrong, that system is pretty cool.. but the process of installing it and combing it to the servers standards of scripts seems like alot of work for not as much benefit.


This just means your placing responsibility on the players, meaning that the shifter class wouldn't be given out willy-nilly, this just means that we would have to be mature about the forms and use them within reason IE: No beetles in the ML Temple and special abilities are not the point. Its the RP the skin provides; And the RP is always most important.

Agreed that RP is more important. What this does is support the concept of the shifter class, the idea that you're actually only limited by what you know, not some random, arbitrary set of choices that aren't even consistent with PnP.

The only major issue RP-wise is that I'm not so sure that the character is recognized to be of the race it shifts into; if it simply gains the characteristics of that race.

I do agree that it would need at least some reworking, but I don't believe that it should be scrapped. If you're saying the merit for it would be relatively low (and this is only if it's low, don't take this as a suggestion that I agree that this is low-priority, because I really don't know, and it would be nice if it wasn't), I'd prefer to wait than to not have anything at all.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2012, 01:45:09 AM »
Just because a Thread has many posts doesn't mean most of the players actually care about it.
This thread seems to be mostly a few people giving arguments for why it should be changed, while others explain again and again that it would require alot of work to get it to work properly. I am sure our Devs might really want to give us as much options as possible, but sometimes its not feasible.

The same goes for the custom domains for Lawgivers and Ezrites, alignment based summons and other fun systems. And BalorVale, one thing spamming asking the Devs to do this because you want it, is likely counterproductive, the devs are aware that there exists interest and are likely looking into it. If they will implement it, they wont do it soon, but its probably somewhere on the list.

Vaku

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2012, 02:50:08 AM »
Just because a Thread has many posts doesn't mean most of the players actually care about it.

Nor does it mean that most players do not care about it. To put it into perspective, this thread has had a total of twelve separate people who have posted in it.

The thread a while back titled, "9/11 ten years later" contained a conversation of a total of twenty people at the time of my writing this. This is on a topic that affected the entire world.

Furthermore, there was a thread a while back titled, “Wall street occupied?” that contained barely twenty-one separate commenting people at the end of the first four pages. The thread goes on, and by the tenth page carries about twenty-six separate users on a topic that has been wildly popular these past months.

I believe this demonstration speaks for itself. In measuring post count, you cannot be sure either way if the topic has substance or not -- whether it is important or not. What must be done is the critical analysis of the topic, not using gut measurements, and definitely not oversimplifying what people have to say with a negative slant, which brings me to this next quote:

This thread seems to be mostly a few people giving arguments for why it should be changed, while others explain again and again that it would require alot of work to get it to work properly.

The thread amounts to much more than this, and it's a shame that at a glance, this is all that can be extracted from reading. This thread is very much so the outcry of people who feel that a class made available for play, is in many ways broken, and even those that say it will need much work agree to the fact: Work must be done.

The issue here differs largely with this issues that some players want,

custom domains for Lawgivers and Ezrites, alignment based summons and other fun systems.

Shifting forms is not just a fun system, it's the entire function of the class. If the function of the class cannot be satisfied, it's not, "Oh, well." for game developers. This type of bug should be recognized as a critical fault in gameplay -- definately not the same thing as custom domains for Lawgivers and Ezrites.

--From looking over this post, I have to say that a lot more consideration needs to be put into upping the priority of restoring this class to its true position.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:55:26 AM by Vaku »

BalorVale

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2012, 03:10:55 AM »
Just because a Thread has many posts doesn't mean most of the players actually care about it.
This thread seems to be mostly a few people giving arguments for why it should be changed, while others explain again and again that it would require alot of work to get it to work properly. I am sure our Devs might really want to give us as much options as possible, but sometimes its not feasible.

The same goes for the custom domains for Lawgivers and Ezrites, alignment based summons and other fun systems. And BalorVale, one thing spamming asking the Devs to do this because you want it, is likely counterproductive, the devs are aware that there exists interest and are likely looking into it. If they will implement it, they wont do it soon, but its probably somewhere on the list.
Please don't attack me, its counter-productive, I'm passionate about the subject because truly master of many forms is the most versitile class for RP and for a server that sets its roots inside of RP, it would benefit the server greatly, this is not some selfish outcry as you might paint it up to be. I agreed with Draxxis and showed that there is more tools that are available, I'm not denying it won't be work. But to argue that the end result is not worth it is counter-productive.

 I say this because I have seen it done and Its run fluidly in other servers, Why can't ours be the same? We are an amazing community of individuals, The Community council is made to represent us because we have such a large community, we are one of the largest server on NWN. Thats a huge accomplishment. And I think we can continue to do more amazing things, fixing a broken class would be a testament to our servers true role of loving-RP, that we would take a class that has been murdered in developing from Bioware and turn it into the RP masterpiece it is meant to be. That is why I post.

I would like a Dev to respond, Yes or no and if no when?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:23:21 AM by BalorVale »

Draxiss

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 02:09:01 AM »
Is the answer already posted, and I missed it? Not to appear impatient or anything on an answer, but it's been about two weeks now . . . will anything happen?
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HellsPanda

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Re: Druids and Shifters
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2012, 03:01:01 AM »
It is probably on the list of things to be looked at, but probably not prioritised