Druids and Shifters

[BalorVale]

Hey a little new to the server only been playing about a month but I've found something in the NwN module that I extremely do not agree with. (Besides the fact that druids dont have hide or move silently as CS). In PnP Druids and Shifters have an armor type called "Wild" armor that balances out the path of a Wildshape Druid like me. I've gone to the Vardo, all sorts of non-vardo competitors with my bag full of cash for them simply to tell me that There is no such items besides 1 cape that helps druids, and there id Nothing that helps shifters at all!  Could we possibly include some form of Barding for each individual animal form or possibly an armor thats equipable while in wild-shape, Or even just some more druid items, I feel kind of neglected as a class, when I walk into those shops with my cleric or Sorcerer I get a flood of amazing items! I just want to see the same for all classes. Maybe we'll see some more druids which make for great RP.

Thanks for Reading!
Balorvale

[MadMage99]

Welcome to the Server!


And, the reason there is no "barding" or equipable armor for wild shapes is the way the game mechanics are. you see when you shift into a shape all of your gear your wearing is absorbed into it. and you cant equip anything. as far as I know it's hardcoded into the game. Sadly if your wearing basic full plate the +8 you natrually get from full plate doesn't count. only yhe special bonuses from the item. like a magic +1 or save etc etc. and not all items transfer over. it bites but that's how it is. if you wan to play a wild shape type druid or shifter you need to carefully study what items work with what shapes, cultivate gear with the right bonuses (+1 AC type things) understand what stacks and what doesn't. it's a headache but that;s how it is.

[BalorVale]

Brilliant Idea just popped into my Brain!

Ok I checked it and Perfected it! Using my own NwN I tested some new armor I made and It would fit perfect into the game.

I made Regular Clothes, Made them only wearable by shifter, Then Gave them a (+4 Magic AC bonus) Like normal armor would give except armor isnt magic, Then I named them Wild Armor, It transfers the stats and you could call them Barding it balances it because only shifters can wear them and the AC bonuses transfer!

[Badelaire]

To address that in a rather cynical way:

Shifter is a class that is app'd for once in a blue moon. Items that are too specific, especially to rare prestige classes, don't really have any broad appeal within the loot tables.

A straight up +4 ac bonus is far too powerful, it would need to come with some serious penalties to offset it and ensure anyone with UMD didn't gain what is essentially 1lb clothing that gives better AC and no spell failure than the usual light armour affair. I recommend reading through the item request thread to get an idea of what sort of limitations there are on loot in the module:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=5772.0

[Vaku]

Shifter is a class that is app'd for once in a blue moon.

That does not qualify for the class to be forgone entirely. It is simply neglectful to overlook a class in any such way.

And why would it matter at any rate, popularity for the class? This is under Gameplay Balance and there is a noticeable discrepancy in items that can be used while in different creature forms Wildshape and Greater Wildshape offer, whereas every other class can benefit from any such item on the server.

Another solution rather than weighing the armor with penalties, is granting that armor only to Shifters, so people with Use Magic Device will not be able to benefit from the item.

So when Player A is accepted as a Shifter, he can then be given a little mini quest to come across the armor, or be given the armor directly and not worry about the story.

Polluting the loot table with Shifter amor won't be a problem.

[Exordium]

It's not entirely true that Shifter was fully neglected as a PrC of choice. There are several applications and I as well had a shifter, but the reason there aren't any active at the moment is in all likelihood, that the class simply is bad in both RP and PvM. It'd need a complete reworking and a lot balancing to make it work on a level that makes even remote justice to the PnP version and offers something unique to the partying experience.

To prove my point: In past few years there has been similar amount of accepted shifter applications as there's been accepted palemaster applications.

I made Regular Clothes, Made them only wearable by shifter, Then Gave them a (+4 Magic AC bonus) Like normal armor would give except armor isnt magic, Then I named them Wild Armor, It transfers the stats and you could call them Barding it balances it because only shifters can wear them and the AC bonuses transfer!

This doesn't really work for several reasons. The armor would cost a lot, it could be used by characters with Use Magic Device, and so forth.

[Emomina]

That cloak item for druids is really nice though, probably amongst the best items on PotM.
It really is extremely rare to find an item that gives anything but +1 to anything, and that item is +2 to a type of armor class they can not boost them self with any of their own spells, also it has a save boost, and zero penalties.
Powerful items are really relative, it may not sound powerful, but in the context of PotM, it is a really nice item.

[Vaku]

This doesn't really work for several reasons. The armor would cost a lot, it could be used by characters with Use Magic Device, and so forth.

There's a little checkbox that can be filled in when making the armor, making it Undroppable. This is akin to binding armor in other games. You would not be able to trade it between players.

If a PC Shifter had this type armor as their only option in armor for their class, I doubt they would bother selling it for the measly 12k it would sell for. Additionally, money if very easy to come by.

[Exordium]

This doesn't really work for several reasons. The armor would cost a lot, it could be used by characters with Use Magic Device, and so forth.

There's a little checkbox that can be filled in when making the armor, making it Undroppable. This is akin to binding armor in other games. You would not be able to trade it between players.

If a PC Shifter had this type armor as their only option in armor for their class, I doubt they would bother selling it for the measly 12k it would sell for. Additionally, money if very easy to come by.

Aside of being stuck to that armor then, another problem is that all ACs change to Deflection when shifting, so you'd find Brooch of Shieldings and Shield of Faiths to be fully useless - further reason why the class is hard to fix without complete reworking.

Plus, AC is likely not the greatest problem with the forms. On my level 5 shifter I noticed that everything is worse than couple of levels lower character of the class the current form is supposed to replicate.

Well, everything except spamming Wyrmling Fire Breath which worked for first few levels, but after that, things started to save it and killed me before I could kill them..

[MadMage99]

To sum it up, Shifter is a class that really needs to be reworked. Sadly, even if there are plans for it, it's on that mysterious list of things to do that's probably ten thousand pages long, we might see it in five year or so? :p

[Vaku]

However, it is one of those things on the list that can be chipped at relatively quickly to bring it down to size.

Things like various shape types and abilities can be held off for a very long time, but an item brought into the server is just too simple and great a fix to pass up.

[Badelaire]

Regardless, I've already linked where ideas for equipment should be posted. Best place to try and get your more neglected classes some specific items implemented. And sorry to be the contrarian but in the length of time I have been on the CC (Since Jan) the applications for PrC's are as follows:

Divine Champion - 6
Weapon Master - 19
Blackgaurd - 4
Pale Master - 5
Assassin - 7
Dwarven Defender - 6
Shadow Dancer - 2
Arcane Archer - 5
Red Dragon Disciple - 1
Shifter - 2

So in my opinion yes, once in a blue moon. Or red if you're an RDD. Or once in an eclipse if you're a shadow dancer.

[BalorVale]

I like the binding Idea and that why Magic bonuses could be implemented and a small balance like some armor I could never trade? I would gladly accept it, Shifters make poor Rp? That I have to disagree on, they are very fun for the role I wish to fulfill, It may be a shy attempt at fixing a class, but it is still a class I would like to play. And this could just give me a slight fix on a broken class.

[BalorVale]

Because I also believe Its not about class power or fantastic PvP capability, I just don't want to be significantly worse then everyone else, I think a little bit of AC bonus that I could use would fix things. Plus its all about the RP people, Its always about the RP.
 

[Amon-Si]

First person to play a shifter going mad and losing themselves to their multiple forms gets a free burial!  Free!

[BalorVale]

Regardless, I've already linked where ideas for equipment should be posted. Best place to try and get your more neglected classes some specific items implemented. And sorry to be the contrarian but in the length of time I have been on the CC (Since Jan) the applications for PrC's are as follows:

Divine Champion - 6
Weapon Master - 19
Blackgaurd - 4
Pale Master - 5
Assassin - 7
Dwarven Defender - 6
Shadow Dancer - 2
Arcane Archer - 5
Red Dragon Disciple - 1
Shifter - 2

So in my opinion yes, once in a blue moon. Or red if you're an RDD. Or once in an eclipse if you're a shadow dancer.

I believe this doesn't mean that the class shouldn't at least get some help If its such a simple fix that could create RP through me doing a quest to obtain it, I only see a win win for everyone it shouldn't matter how many people apply, That just makes my character feel unique, not cooky cutter. Don't punish diversity or all you'll have is monks and clerics.

[Emomina]

Don't punish diversity or all you'll have is monks and clerics.

Nah, I would still make rogues.

I don't see it like that anyway, I see it as devoting limited development time to an area that has the greatest net impact. Catering to special interests is dodgy when the time is limited. In an ideal set up with a full time staff on wages you would be right perhaps.

[BalorVale]

So Creating one item that could enhance one persons playing experience that would take only a few moments and give off some cool RP, and balance a class isnt worth it? What is worth it? Can't we make these unplayed classes look slightly more appealing? If That doesnt matter then does that mean I should just take heavy armor profficiency and wear a set of full plate? I'm doing this for RP and it has been said that the class is never played or rarely, Why not just make it slightly better so that its just a tiny bit more balanced?

[Amon-Si]

Don't shifters get some nasty forms?
Minotaur gets a +1 axe
Gargoyle gets a 15/ reduction... who needs AC after that?
The humanoid forms get +3 weapons, too.
Not saying that shifters don't need something, but they also have advantages that no one else gets easily.

[Emomina]

Hm.. I don't think anyone is stating that Shifter is a class that could not be improved. Every single class has things that could be improved, many of them for balance reasons. I just think, if you step back from this a moment, knowing you have a vested personal interest in the class, you may see how it might not appeal to a developer to take some of his time to implement something to right what you deem wrong is all. In the end that is entirely up to the purview of said dev(s), and only they know the answer to that. The rest of us are just weighing in with our perspective, you need not be angered by our views which ultimately, don't matter.

[Amon-Si]

Actually, now that I'm done perusing the shifter info on NWNwiki...
They're actually pretty OP.
If you push it, you can be a shifter by level 6, first thing to open up there are elemental attacks that bypass all the creatures I've encountered DRs if you choose well, and complete immunity to certain elemental attacks, making travelling to icy places, farming oozes and bursting fire beetles almost risk-free.
Then comes level 8 (3 shifter) At this level you could be soloing scrags, which provided my level 14 char with satisfieds. 15/+1 dam reduction is almost insurmountable for them.
THEN at level 10 you can pull out +2 drider weapons and go rape some battle horrors
by level 12 (5/7) You'll have a selection of at will abilities that even mages could envy.

You want +4 ac gear? Well, have at it, my friend, because it's not going to make you any more hardcore!

[Vaku]

Weighing in with our... views which ultimately, don't matter.

An awfully dismal way to look at these forum discussions. I'd like to know that these discussions have some impact. For better or worse, that's why I thought these discussions existed.

At any rate, Shifters do get an array of abilities, but as far as testimonials go from one of the people who played a Shifter on this server,

Everything is worse than couple of levels lower character of the class the current form is supposed to replicate.

Part of that is, yes, the excitement and challenge of being a Shifter, in deciding the form best to handle the job at hand. But the fact of the matter is, they're grossly gimped in comparrison to other classes. I like love that this is a low-magic server, where everyone has meager loot. It makes it such a great challenge. But scales become totally mangled when a shifter has no loot at their disposal, especially when even in a humanoid form, you cannot use and consumables, or even cast within Wildshape.

I understand, that there is that unimaginably large list of everything to do, but if there's no one to speak up on the matter, it may never even make a blip on the radar.

[Emomina]

You say it is an indictment of my view on forum discussions, perhaps so, but I didn't mean it as dire as you interpreted it though. What I meant is any nay-saying that I or anyone else might do is not so powerful a force as to deter any potential dev from taking on the challenge to implement the suggestions. But being a realist, now that you read it into what I said, I might spend the time counting up all propositions ever brought up on potm in the form of a new thread, and get a percentage.
I say that because going on memory the amount of things brought up probably got implemented at a clip of at or about 25%. The odds are long even from the start, mostly because we players do not see the big picture afforded being in another role offers. And also because a lot of it is just plain individual inspiration and motivation on the part of a developer, which no one has control over.

Now, that is not to say new suggestions should not be brought up, they 110% should be done. Even with the 1 in 5 or so I believe get ultimately implemented, that is progress, that is growth for the server toward a more perfect gameplay experience.
I was just saying basically, mostly to BalorVale, that I would not spend much time worrying over ME and what I said. Me stating that I don't think it has enough of a impact to implement neither harms it chances nor improves them. That is what I meant by "..ultimately do not matter"   Anyway, my basic take is that its a swell idea worth musing over, but in the end might not be able to have enough of an impact to merit its development time. I am, however, nothing but a player on potm these days.

[Vaku]

Neither harms it chances nor improves them.

Therein lies the irony, and to that end, I do not see how that figures into a measurement of 75% suggestions not being put into the server. A more realistic interpretation of that measurement is that a majority of suggestions are not feasible for implementation, not that things said give no impetus.

Positive or negative things said will increase or decrease favor respectively. I have difficulty imagining places in society where that rule does not apply.

Seeing the biggest picture available is only part of the challenge, that no one person in this community has full perspective over, that is why what we say is so important to be heard, and believed to have strength to motivate, or dissuade a developer, to make a game all that better.

And to be,

nothing but a player on potm these days.

is no humble position, but one of responsibility to give your interpretation of the developer's work. If I cooked a bad meal, I would love to know where it can be improved, and what spices to add or take away. I see PotM as this collective dinner, where we're all cooks in the same kitchen, where some are manning the oven and other setting up the dining table.

Anyways, I see what you're saying. It's a tough seat being the developer, and not having enough time to do all you want. But sometimes, being driven by a couple informative or friendly comments can do a lot for motivation, to even overcome something like a stressful workload.

[HellsPanda]

The best way to get any item into the server is in the Item Request thread lines. But only if it is within the balance lines that exist.

Binding items is a terrible mechanic for any non cursed gear.

If they are to do anything to Shifters, it shoud be to tear down the entire class, and restart at the begining and giving it more forms, so it is a more accurate representation.
But one thing you must remember of the class, is that its actually not a combat class at all, it sacrifices spell casting for utility in PnP, but this is very hard to replicate in a NWN environment