Author Topic: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations  (Read 5482 times)

Dread

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Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« on: November 03, 2011, 12:34:54 AM »
Hey, I thought of an idea I think would be really cool for bards and make having one in your party for support purposes even more useful.

What if there were various items like sheet music that worked like Lich Lyrics in the NWN campaign did? Basically, these would be spells with various uses tied to your bardsong and these can be either spells that are already in the game (for instance, a piece of sheet music named "Religious Hymn" that allows a Bard with 5 bardsongs/cursesongs to use the spell "Bless" five times), or they can be custom-made inspiration that, say, gives regeneration temporarily to a group of people around you!

This would help to bring the bard a bit closer to what it is in 3.5e - the ultimate support class, rather than the jack-of-all-master-of-none class it is now.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

monsinyana

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 08:08:03 AM »
love this

also sounds like a good rp opportunity for PCs to start accusing you of using 'witchy papers'
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 08:14:23 AM »
And! Give the bards the ability to change the background music at will --> like the npc bard in the Village tavern. :P


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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 10:48:25 AM »
And! Give the bards the ability to change the background music at will --> like the npc bard in the Village tavern. :P

I'd rather have them playing their instruments. Like the background music changes from an actual music performed by "musicianS" to a single instrument being played. That way we don't have one-man bands around.

Yes, more scripting, but maybe when attempting to change the background music, a [perform] roll would be made, failling a DC would result in a terribly performed background music.

Dread

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 12:16:07 PM »
Bumpy bump bump.

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2013, 12:23:43 PM »
I give this my complete support, being a bard player myself.

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2013, 12:35:29 PM »
Would be interesting to see more dynamics besides "Inspire you!" and "Blow out your eardrums!"
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2013, 01:06:07 PM »
I support this.

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2013, 01:12:05 PM »
will there be cake? if so.. +1

Dread

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 02:00:33 PM »
Okay, I'm going to flesh out this idea a little bit, and hopefully a skilled developer can perhaps realize what I've got in mind. What I envision are pieces of sheet music sold at ApWallace's Music Shop in Vallaki, Marcel's Music Shop in Dementlieu, and the House of Rest in Har'Akir, with truly special ones being found in loot drops. For instance, in the sewers of Dementlieu or Marcel's shop, you find:

Bertrand DuBois' Magical Concerto in D minor, Vivace
Mass Haste (at a low caster level so it doesn't last any more than two or three rounds), tied to your bardsong ability.

Or at a certain shady bookstore, one could find:

Necropolitan Death Chant
Negative Energy Burst tied to your bardsong ability

Edit: sorry, just realized bards already get mass haste at level 6 spells. If need be, the effect could be simply the equivalent of a AOE expeditious retreat, but such might require more scripting.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 02:08:38 PM by Vengeful Seraphim »

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 02:09:09 PM »
The problem is that Lich Lyrics is an actual spell in the game (not one that PCs can learn, but still for all intents and purposes a spell). Adding new spells to the game is possible, but not at all easy or trivial to do, and requires extensive changes to the haks and tlk files.

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Dread

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 02:19:33 PM »
Really? I'll have to glance over the toolset again, I could've sworn it was a "use item special power" type item, not its own spell. If it is its own spell, that makes things considerably more difficult. Would it be possible to implement different types of bardic inspirations some other, easier way? Part of the reason as to why I suggested using the lich lyrics as a model was because while it probably could be handled through scripting without spells, it might prove to bog down the server with OnHeartbeat triggered events.

There may be a way that involves scripting that isn't so intensive, I don't know, I'm no scripter, just an ideas-man.

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 04:09:38 AM »
My older brother use to be a DM and tech-savvy scriptor for EfU, I've actually beta-tested some of the unique power items he designed for clerics and bards. Special "on-use" items that used the respective bard/cleric's bardsong/turn undead to make a unique effect. City of Arabel actually developed a system like this as well for bards, although some of their ideas were a little silly or overpowered. (Mass Polymorph Curse Song and Regeneration Healing song just to name a few from there.)


EfU's items were very flavored rather than offering super-amazing powers, and really gave a unique feeling to bards and their songs. They were rare items, because they let different bards 'stack' their songs with different effects. (And the items were only 1use/day, so they had to be used with consideration as well). We already have several bard instruments on the toolset, if this idea was considered, I'd approve as long as it was kept balance unlike some other servers.

As far as I know on the scripts, they weren't very laborous on the other servers. A few ideas from the other servers that I can remember.


Elemental Weapon Songs: The damage bonuses from the default bard song were reduced, but offered elemental damage types instead. (It was roughly 1 damage per 4 levels of bard)
Elemental Curse Songs: They offered 10-50% weakness to various elements.
Regeneration/Healing: 1hp/3bard levels, this was rather unbalanced and overused, however. On CoA; there was no other bardsong used besides bioware after they implemented this.
Bone Chimes: Raised an undead for the duration of the song, and bolstered undead only.
Revealing Curse Song: It was roughly a perform vs concentration check to have all sanctuary/invisibility effects dispelled.
Spell Failure Curse Song: perform vs concentration, 35% Spell Failure
Mass Polymorph Curse Song: It was like 10+ 1/2 Bard Level DC vs Polymorphed into a helpless animal.
Expeditious Retreat Song: Offered 125% movespeed to listeners
Keen Song: AoE Keen Edge for 10/15 rounds.

I'm good suggesting balanced ideas. Give me a few, and I'll write up a more professional looking idea.


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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 04:50:01 AM »
And as an extra note, I would keep these items as charges like everything else.. whether they be music sheets or instruments.

Dread

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 08:41:17 AM »
I don't mind them being items with charges, so long as you need bard song to perform them. Otherwise, anybody with a few points in UMD can use the sheet music/instruments and it would give people little reason to actually play the Bard class to give support party buffs.

For a suitable substitute to regeneration song, I think it should perhaps give more temp HP than BioWare's instead, and maybe tap out at 2 regen/round. Anything more than that would probably throw off game balance considerably.

I like a lot of those ideas, including the elemental curse and keening songs - I can see many places where those could be extremely useful, but they're very situational. The curse songs like the one causing Spell Failure and the Revealing are also highly situational, which is good.

I'll try to think up some more ideas, but here's what I got for now:

Siren's Serenade - Curse song, 10 + 1/2 bard level to become dazed for a couple rounds.
Rhyme of the Sphinx - Gotten in Har'Akir, summons an androsphinx to fight for you. Only a few charges.
Symphony of Incineration - Elemental Shield surrounding the bard (and maybe his cohorts? - would have to be a short duration there)
Battalion's Heroic March - Bonus to Discipline, +1 AC (?)

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 12:01:15 PM »
I don't mind them being items with charges, so long as you need bard song to perform them. Otherwise, anybody with a few points in UMD can use the sheet music/instruments and it would give people little reason to actually play the Bard class to give support party buffs.

For a suitable substitute to regeneration song, I think it should perhaps give more temp HP than BioWare's instead, and maybe tap out at 2 regen/round. Anything more than that would probably throw off game balance considerably.

I like a lot of those ideas, including the elemental curse and keening songs - I can see many places where those could be extremely useful, but they're very situational. The curse songs like the one causing Spell Failure and the Revealing are also highly situational, which is good.

I'll try to think up some more ideas, but here's what I got for now:

Siren's Serenade - Curse song, 10 + 1/2 bard level to become dazed for a couple rounds.
Rhyme of the Sphinx - Gotten in Har'Akir, summons an androsphinx to fight for you. Only a few charges.
Symphony of Incineration - Elemental Shield surrounding the bard (and maybe his cohorts? - would have to be a short duration there)
Battalion's Heroic March - Bonus to Discipline, +1 AC (?)

Situational, and can be compared to a mechanic that already exists.

Spell Failure = Taunt/Antagonize Skill
Revealing = Invisibility Purge
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 12:04:46 PM by Rhymenoceros »

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2013, 07:27:18 PM »
There is something like this on City of Arabel. The most useful one is "Celestial Concerto" which causes all party members to regenerate hit points for the duration of the bard's song, but the bard cannot use any other songs while the healing song is in effect. The way it works there, you activate the sheet music's special property and your bard song will have the healing effect instead of it's normal effect every time you use it, until you activate the sheet music again to toggle it "off" or until you activate a different sheet music instead (there is also a mass expeditious retreat effect sheet music).

The way the healing one works over there is that your song, once the sheet music is activated, causes all characters in your party and within the normal range of bard song to regenerate a number of hit points per round equal to your heal skill divided by 5, but not more than you have levels of bard, and lasts for the normal duration of your song (I believe it's 10 normally and 15 if you have Lingering Song feat).  SO, a level 7 bard with 10 wisdom and lingering song feat can cause all party members to regenerate 2 hit points per round for 15 rounds. A level 10 bard with 8 wisdom and Skill Focus: Healing feat can cause party members to regenerate 3 points per round.

Needless to say, on CoA, bards are the ultimate support character, but personally I think their implementation is too powerful, given how easy it is to find things that add to heal skill and taking the skill focus feat (especially since we get so many feats here). I would like to see something like this here, but perhaps just make it regenerate a number of hit points per round equal to bard level divided by 3, and also make it impossible to use the standard song at the same time.


Frankly, bards here get a bit screwed. I've seen tons and tons of items that give wizards and sorcerers extra spell slots, but never seen a single item that give bards any extra spell slots (and we get fewer spells per rest cycle than they do). Also, according to the PHB, bards are supposed to ignore arcane casting failure due to armour when wearing light armour, and that's something that other servers have implemented, but not here. Before level 11, bard song is really not terribly useful. This would give multi-class bards some usefulness.

Also, a sheet music that has limited charges makes no IC sense whatever. Once a bard knows a song, he/she simply knows it. Besides, I'm really not fond of the endless search in dungeons for consumables that need to be replaced. It merely turns into an endless cycle of dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of Shielding so that you can go dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of Shielding so you can go dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of.....
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 07:34:15 PM by Green Monster »
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 07:35:52 PM »
Quote
bards are supposed to ignore arcane casting failure due to armour when wearing light armour,

Simple chainmail is suppose to be light armor D:

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2013, 02:54:57 AM »
Bards aren't screwed, bards are awesome.  If more songs were added, I'd still like to keep the original bard song.

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2013, 05:31:38 AM »
Would love reliable casting in studded leather or a chain shirt as my Bard. I might actually might have more standing than "minor inconvenience " in parties with the added survivability. Bards, for the most part, are a fun tagalong, and more of a headache for the tank than a help. At least in low-mid levels.
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 02:24:24 PM »
If more songs were added, I'd still like to keep the original bard song.

In CoA you toggle the additional songs on and off using the sheet music's ability. If all sheet musics are toggled off, then singing produces default bard song effect. You just can't use more than one song effect at the same time, which makes sense because no one can sing more than one song at a time.
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 09:17:54 PM »
If more songs were added, I'd still like to keep the original bard song.

In CoA you toggle the additional songs on and off using the sheet music's ability. If all sheet musics are toggled off, then singing produces default bard song effect. You just can't use more than one song effect at the same time, which makes sense because no one can sing more than one song at a time.


Ettins have been known to!  But yes, more music (and more instrument sounds?) would be great!  In fact, why not a command which plays a sound based on the emote?

[Aglaia plays her harps with flattering flats and shapely sharps] ->  'harp' detected, plays a harpy tune (the instrument not the breasted bird-monsters)

[Aglaia's lute is fat and cute - its table at high spawn to boot!] -> 'lute' detected, so it plays some lutery goodness

[Guitar skills aplenty, though in martial she lacks.  She's a gnome - not a dwarf - but she can handle an axe.]  'guitar' detected, so it plays that awesome riff from 'Whole Lotta Love'
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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 10:20:50 PM »
There is something like this on City of Arabel. The most useful one is "Celestial Concerto" which causes all party members to regenerate hit points for the duration of the bard's song, but the bard cannot use any other songs while the healing song is in effect. The way it works there, you activate the sheet music's special property and your bard song will have the healing effect instead of it's normal effect every time you use it, until you activate the sheet music again to toggle it "off" or until you activate a different sheet music instead (there is also a mass expeditious retreat effect sheet music).

The way the healing one works over there is that your song, once the sheet music is activated, causes all characters in your party and within the normal range of bard song to regenerate a number of hit points per round equal to your heal skill divided by 5, but not more than you have levels of bard, and lasts for the normal duration of your song (I believe it's 10 normally and 15 if you have Lingering Song feat).  SO, a level 7 bard with 10 wisdom and lingering song feat can cause all party members to regenerate 2 hit points per round for 15 rounds. A level 10 bard with 8 wisdom and Skill Focus: Healing feat can cause party members to regenerate 3 points per round.

Needless to say, on CoA, bards are the ultimate support character, but personally I think their implementation is too powerful, given how easy it is to find things that add to heal skill and taking the skill focus feat (especially since we get so many feats here). I would like to see something like this here, but perhaps just make it regenerate a number of hit points per round equal to bard level divided by 3, and also make it impossible to use the standard song at the same time.


Frankly, bards here get a bit screwed. I've seen tons and tons of items that give wizards and sorcerers extra spell slots, but never seen a single item that give bards any extra spell slots (and we get fewer spells per rest cycle than they do). Also, according to the PHB, bards are supposed to ignore arcane casting failure due to armour when wearing light armour, and that's something that other servers have implemented, but not here. Before level 11, bard song is really not terribly useful. This would give multi-class bards some usefulness.

Also, a sheet music that has limited charges makes no IC sense whatever. Once a bard knows a song, he/she simply knows it. Besides, I'm really not fond of the endless search in dungeons for consumables that need to be replaced. It merely turns into an endless cycle of dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of Shielding so that you can go dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of Shielding so you can go dungeon crawling to replace your Candles of.....

I was one of the original players that first tested all the songs when they came out and helped a little with input on their balancing. When it -first- came out, there was no level cap on the song, it was only affected by heal and perform. My 9th level bard had regen 8 like a boss. To prove how powerful it was on that server, myself and another player played a fighter and a bard, and two-manned (three when needed) every quest on the server in a day and hit level 9. To add further pain. We had 15,000 gold and a full set of gear for both of us. (Well, him, I just had an invisibility wand, and like 10 cure serious bard wands.)

I will HIGHLY recommend something related to a regeneration song never exists. It was tremendously overused and overpowered beyond belief. My suggestion was never considered for CoA, but songs should of been limited uses, an considered a consumable, not a peice of loot. That Regeneration 2-4 per round wouldn't have been nearly as strong if you could only use it once a day, or better yet, only could use it 10 times before needing to replace the song @ 2000 gold, which was about the same price as a cure critical wand.



And about limited-use music. Its a magical power, just like scrolls. You consume the magic each time you use it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 10:24:41 PM by Rhymenoceros »

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Re: Suggestion: Sheet Music and Bardic Inspirations
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 06:39:54 PM »
Coming up with appropriate songs is difficult.  Any bard song that emulates a spell or spell-like effect would be overpowered, since that's just a way of breaking beyond the class' limited known spells and spells per day.  Mass expeditious retreat, mass heal, and mass regeneration would fall under this.  Bard song ideas should stick to mechanical effects that aren't necessarily related to particular spells - such as attack bonus, saving throws, skills, damage reduction, movement speed (much like way the current bard song is) - finessed in a way that keeps the song unique and in no way a replacement for any spell.

If song ideas are posted adhering to the above guideline, they'll be more likely to gain interest.