Author Topic: Druids and Metal Armor again  (Read 13589 times)

EberronBruce

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Druids and Metal Armor again
« on: September 27, 2011, 09:59:15 AM »
I hate keep bring this issue up but I saw it again. A brand new character that is a druid wearing metal splint mail. WTF!. I told him through ooc pm chat that its against the druidic oath. He says you cant tell him how to play a druid. Neverwinter night's has a balance issue that has touch on this.

The developers made iron wood and chitlin armors for druids to have better ac. There are alternatives. So, the arguement is this. There needs to be a way to stop this class from abusing this. When you tell them the bases of a druid from PHB they just argue with you.

3.5 Player's Handbook
Class: Druid
Section: Weapons and Armor Proficiency:
Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling and spear. They are also proficient with all natual attacks (claw, bite, and so fort) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below). Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description, page 246.) Druids are proficient with shields (expt tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.
A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.


The point being is there should be consequences for a druid who violates that oath, just like there is consequences for a paladin that violates his code of ethics.

Its in the Player's Handbook like this for a reason. Take the good and bad with the class.

This is not a rant and rave. Something needs to be done. Developers threw in options for druid type classes. These things throws the balance off. Its like a wizard or sorc wearing metal armor and can cast spells.

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2011, 10:11:25 AM »
Perhaps if an Ironwood option was available to new players in the character starting area instead of only being available in Degannwy, new players playing druids would actually have a choice in the matter instead of having the only armor worth getting being metal.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2011, 10:15:20 AM »
While this is true, don't forget about Druids who follow Mielikki ;)
These druids are permitted to wear metal and use other weapons just like Rangers.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2011, 10:17:16 AM »
Wizards & Sorcs can wear metal armour and cast spells, if they want.

Frankly I consider this matter so utterly trivial and boring.

Consider it possible that all metallic armours, loot drops and crafted items of a metallic nature could be assigned a variable that inflicts 100% spell failure on druids equipping them, whereas those of a nonmetallic nature have no such variable associated, and can then be worn freely.

This script would have to fire every time a PC equips armour, check if they have a druid class, check if the armour has the metallic variable, and then inflict the spell failure penalty. That's a lot of firing, a lot of resources, and a lot of work to retrofit every armour item in the palette, then to update instances in merchants, as well as items in PC inventory.

Are the developers going to want to do that? No. Is it worth the processing needed to run it? No. Is it such a game-breaking matter that it is even the slightest bit worthwhile? No.

MistJumper

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2011, 10:32:20 AM »
How about you play your character the way you want, and let everyone else play theirs as they want? That includes how they RP. If it causes an actual problem, I am sure the DMs, will be there to straighten it out, as that is their job.  

On the same note, As a PnP DM, players who always quote the book, end up being eaten by dragons, armor, book and all.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:34:14 AM by ElkRunner »

EberronBruce

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 10:48:22 AM »
Then it should be player based with player honesty. If the player didn't tell me to piss off, I would have bought him some ironwood oocly as to not violate the druidic code.

Take the good and the bad with your class. When I was a table top DM I would never permitted my druid pcs from ever wearing metal armor. If they did there would be consequences as stated in the PHB. The druids of NWN is based of 3.0 rule set.   It goes against the core and grain. The Player's Handbook and the Core books were written with these in mind. That's why there was a reamp to 3.5, which was to re-adjust some balancing issues particularly for rangers. Druids get powerful like other casters. Especially with all their abilities. The rules for armor and weapons are to restrict for balance. It would be like a wizard in full plate without arcane spell failure. It would be an unbalance to a wizard class because a fighter type class can not compete with something like that.

Come on guys. Its not like there isn't any options. There is. The developers made chitlin into craftable armors. And this is the very reason they did that. You can find old postings on chitlin armors.  

What is wrong with a druid character starting out in leather or hide armor? Hunting minks if done with some consistency can produce enough to buy ironwood quickly.  

Stay true to the character concept. If I play a paladin that goes out raping and murdering. Should he still be a paladin? Answer is no. Grossly violated his code of conduct.

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 11:04:46 AM »
Until a DM tells me in game to not wear metal armor as a Druid, or the system is in place to keep my character from equipping it, My druid will wear metal armor. If in game you as another player, who is not a DM, or on the CC, or was not asked for your opinion on what armor my druid should wear, starts telling me how, and what to do, Then I will give you the same answer as you got from the other player. Piss Off. It is not your place to tell others how to play, what they can wear, what they can do. There are actual rules against that kind of action, its called ruining the game for others. Don't do it, it makes you look like a jerk.

I do not care what the PnP handbook says on the mater. I am not playing PnP. The handbook also allows druids to befriend animals. (plural) that is not in game. A druid can also pass through trees, cause plants to grow, and talk to them too. Those abilities are not in game. When the full handbook abilities of the druid are allowed, then I will consider not wearing metal armor, as long as I, not you, decide it is fun to do so, and you, or any other player keeps their mouth shut. I find that when such "you should play this way" crap is given when not asked for, I tend to just say something nastier than "Piss Off", and play the exact opposite way. I'll even go as far as to tell the offending player where they can go, and how much of whatever they can do something really nasty, shove into unfriendly place.

The actual implementation of a system to Nerf druids from wearing metal armor is way down on the list of what I call important.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 11:09:21 AM »
Come on guys. Its not like there isn't any options. There is. The developers made chitlin into craftable armors. And this is the very reason they did that. You can find old postings on chitlin armors.  

Chitin.  Not chitlin.  Nobody wears armor made of chitlins.  I hope.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 11:14:37 AM by KoopaFanatic »

Springer

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 11:24:48 AM »
I t is hardly balance breaking considering alternatives have the same AC. I am just curious why players pick druid class at all if they want to wear metal armour and stick to the city. It is a part of unique trait of them that neglected.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 12:21:19 PM »
I t is hardly balance breaking considering alternatives have the same AC. I am just curious why players pick druid class at all if they want to wear metal armour and stick to the city. It is a part of unique trait of them that neglected.

My druid wears half plate. There are no alternatives to steel half plate, vs chitin. the fire vulnerability on chitin makes it undesirable. As for staying in civilization, have your pc stay all night out in the forest and see if it makes it. Last time my pc looked around at night, she ended up dead. My druid does not stay in the city, but she does go into it, RP in it, and sometimes talk about it.

I would like to point out, that metal is natural, it is dug out of the ground, or removed from rock. There is no difference in working chitin, or tree bark, or metal to make armor. All require work in the smithy to produce. All are naturally occurring. All armor, provided the correct feat has been chosen at level up, can be worn by any character. Only arcane spells are hampered by armor. The divine, or clerical, and druid is an offset of cleric, spells are not hampered by armor.

The main part of this topic is one player, is telling others how they should play, regardless of how NWN allows for play. I do not believe that is in the best interest of OOC enjoyment, or IC enjoyment either.




ethinos

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 01:16:59 PM »
While this is true, don't forget about Druids who follow Mielikki ;)
These druids are permitted to wear metal and use other weapons just like Rangers.

That's not really a good argument. Yeah, and the percentage of druids on our server that follow Mielikki is probably next to nil.

I t is hardly balance breaking considering alternatives have the same AC. I am just curious why players pick druid class at all if they want to wear metal armour and stick to the city. It is a part of unique trait of them that neglected.

My druid wears half plate. There are no alternatives to steel half plate, vs chitin. the fire vulnerability on chitin makes it undesirable. As for staying in civilization, have your pc stay all night out in the forest and see if it makes it. Last time my pc looked around at night, she ended up dead. My druid does not stay in the city, but she does go into it, RP in it, and sometimes talk about it.

I would like to point out, that metal is natural, it is dug out of the ground, or removed from rock. There is no difference in working chitin, or tree bark, or metal to make armor. All require work in the smithy to produce. All are naturally occurring. All armor, provided the correct feat has been chosen at level up, can be worn by any character. Only arcane spells are hampered by armor. The divine, or clerical, and druid is an offset of cleric, spells are not hampered by armor.

The main part of this topic is one player, is telling others how they should play, regardless of how NWN allows for play. I do not believe that is in the best interest of OOC enjoyment, or IC enjoyment either.

I don't understand why someone would play a city-dwelling druid with metal half-plate. Just play a cleric with nature domains. The fact that you are somewhat familiar with the PnP rules, it makes it extremely odd that you choose to play in a fashion that contradicts them. Understand that most of our players play this game in a manner that remains faithful to the D&D PnP version. After all, not everyone here has the opportunity to play D&D with a group in real life, and this is the closest we can get.

Also, none of your arguments holds any weight. The Player's Handbook expressly forbids wearing metal armor, and only because Bioware was lazy is it even possible for your 'druid' to wear such.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 01:28:41 PM »
CHitin doesnt have any fire vulnerability, and in fact lighter then metal in trade for one less AC against bludgeoning or piercing I dont remember which compared to steel armours. Besides there are ironwood armours in Degannwy.
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ethinos

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 01:31:58 PM »
Ironwood has a fire vulnerability. As a smith, I think thick chitin armor is better than steel (and I don't like that one bit), but that's another subject for a different day.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 02:51:32 PM »
While this is true, don't forget about Druids who follow Mielikki ;)
These druids are permitted to wear metal and use other weapons just like Rangers.

That's not really a good argument. Yeah, and the percentage of druids on our server that follow Mielikki is probably next to nil.


I can think of two right off. And it wasn't an argument, just pointing out the facts in case someone would like to play a Druid but not have to worry over the metal issues. :)
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 03:21:10 PM »
For those with nothing but snide comments and misinformed opinions on druids I refer you to the various nature gods one can read up on here in Forgotten Realms terms: http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/Gods.htm

You'll see a pattern of mostly being limited to nonmetallic shields, hides, leathers, padded, bone, light chains and elven metal armours. Wearing anything heavier than studded leather or elven chain accrues penalties to druidical abiliities but isn't implemented in NWN. The initial poster pretty much stated all that needs to be said about druids and armours though there are deviataions to the class that have those instances where they are allowed to wear metal armours but definately not things like full plate mail.

EDIT: Also, about forging and metal. The act of forging is not a natural process, to work metal requires irreplaceable resources and the industrial processes of manufacturing arms would not be very healthy to the environment. You strip a great deal from the land without maintaining it as druids would reserves of trees for ironwood or making staves etc and pump out pollutants as a biproduct of the process.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 03:28:00 PM by Badelaire »

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 03:39:29 PM »
 :whatsthis:

ethinos

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2011, 03:39:51 PM »
Took a quick peek at Mielikki's druids, and they are allowed to wear ranger armors (not just any metal armor). However, the D&D SRD (which I think is 3.5) states that rangers receive only the light armor proficiency. Did they lose the medium armor proficiency in 3.5?
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 04:11:02 PM »
Might be that some chains, specifically elven crafted ones, are counted as light armours.

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2011, 04:40:07 PM »
Since we allow players to follow faiths and orders from any setting, seeing this is ravenloft. Banning metal armors on all druids would be silly.

As for the balance issue? No way. The druid class really isn't an overpowered one. (Not saying it's a dead beat either)

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2011, 04:54:40 PM »
Ok, I'm the player that Legos was harassing about wearing metal armor. I have other toons on PotM, ranging from level 2-7. I had just barely finished making this druid, and was walking out of the Vistani camp heading for the ML church when he, in essence, verbally ambushed me and started chewing my tail about the splint armor I was wearing.

FYI, I chose splint armor in the newbie section because it was the best armor available there, not because I love it or the look of it. I actually had every intention of buying ironwood or chitin as soon as I could afford it (note that not only are neither one available in the newbie area, you don't get enough gold to be able to buy them even if they were available). But when he jumped my tail because I wasn't playing the game in accordance with his preferences, my contrary streak kicked in.

This kind of thing makes me tired. It's a game, not a religion. I have thought about it. If Legos can mis-quote me without permission (I did not tell him to "piss off" or anything near that), I see no reason that I can't quote him accurately without asking permission. Here is a copy of what was said, cleaned up with spelling corrected:

 [Tue Sep 27 09:37:09] Legos Slyvester: [Tell] druids arent suppose to wear metal

 
Ely Te'leine: [Tell] says who? Some sorcerer?


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] Says the PHB, core rules, it violets the druidic oath


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] I never took any such oath


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] your a druid right


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] you had to


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] to be a druid


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] besides, if i cant wear metal, then i am not allowed a helmet, bracers, or boots with metal either


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] or a metal amulet. I refuse to be inconsistent


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] I will show you, there is chitin alternative


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] I know. but even they have metal in them


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] Read the players handbook, I posted it on the forums


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] No thanks. I ama rebel and an apostate


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] I personally think DMs should strip druids of power for violating their oaths. They put chitlin armor in the game so druids have soem thing else


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] there is also ironwood


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] I personally think its no body elses busines if i choose to play an atypical druid


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] its not that its balance and core rules. Thats what erks me with NWN nights


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] then play dnd online


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] its based of the principle of druids.


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] nwn isnt


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] I have played DDO, its only mechanics. I been playing DND most of my life. I know 3.5 rules and 3.0 rules. NWN is based off of 3.0


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] obviously. and they were contracted to wiz of the coast at the time, so it is canon for this game at least


Ely Te'leine: [Tell] the company that made dnd approved the ruleset in this game


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] which wrote 3.0 and 3.5


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] which wearing of metal armor for druids is a glitch


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] I am tired of arguing the point. If you dont like the way i play, dont play with me


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] instead of trying to boss me around


 Legos Slyvester: [Tell] Im going to post this again on the forums. This time tell the developers. They put chitlin armor in the game for a reason. [shakes head]


 Ely Te'leine: [Tell] post away. I dont have to play a druid


There it is. i throw myself on the mercy of the court (meaning the DMs. Everyone else.... never mind.)
 

HellsPanda

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2011, 05:01:25 PM »
If there is a harassment issue contact your CC rep or DM.

ethinos

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2011, 05:46:58 PM »
Ok, I'm the player that Legos was harassing about wearing metal armor. I have other toons on PotM, ranging from level 2-7. I had just barely finished making this druid, and was walking out of the Vistani camp heading for the ML church when he, in essence, verbally ambushed me and started chewing my tail about the splint armor I was wearing.

FYI, I chose splint armor in the newbie section because it was the best armor available there, not because I love it or the look of it. I actually had every intention of buying ironwood or chitin as soon as I could afford it (note that not only are neither one available in the newbie area, you don't get enough gold to be able to buy them even if they were available). But when he jumped my tail because I wasn't playing the game in accordance with his preferences, my contrary streak kicked in.

First off, EberronBruce probably could've come off a lot a bit better than he did, and I think we can all agree with that. However, this is apparently his personal pet peeve, and I can understand (but not condone) why he got a bit heated over the incident.

What it comes down to though, is that a druid is required to abide by his Druidic Oath. "The strict oaths taken by every druid prohibit using weapons and armor outside their traditions."  I'd recommend that you find a god/goddess appropriate to your character's world of origin, research their dogma/restrictions/traditions/etc., and then implement it in-game. Splint mail isn't exactly druid fashion on any world, with any patron. I understand your interest in having 'the best armor available at the time', but some classes like rangers, thieves, and druids are usually stuck with crappy light armor until they can find something more suitable. It's one of the drawbacks of those classes at character creation.

Quote
This kind of thing makes me tired. It's a game, not a religion. I have thought about it.

NWN is a game, but as you can tell there are a lot of players here that take it very seriously as it has a depth (and responsibility, maybe?) to it that goes far beyond a simple game of checkers or tic-tac-toe. D&D also has a history, and a legacy that players like to see respected when it comes to rules and mechanics. But we aren't just playing 'Neverwinter Nights' here. We are playing on a server that is trying to be much more in line with the pen-and-paper version of D&D.

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Ely Te'leine: [Tell] besides, if i cant wear metal, then i am not allowed a helmet, bracers, or boots with metal either


You aren't allowed to wear metal 'armor'. Metal boots, a metal helmet (chitin, leather, etc. are fine), metal armor (chitin armor is made without metal), shields with metal (chitin shields can be made without steel), and metal gauntlets/bracers all count as 'armor' in the strictest sense. Amulets, necklaces, and other jewelry, regardless of being metal, aren't 'armor' and thus are fine for wear.

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There it is. i throw myself on the mercy of the court (meaning the DMs. Everyone else.... never mind.)

Everyone else, never mind? You'll be playing with players for the vast majority of the time, and I wouldn't recommend alienating them. Finding groups and fitting in is hard enough without giving other players cause to avoid you as a player.
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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2011, 06:16:27 PM »
 :banghead:

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2011, 06:30:14 PM »
Is it okay if I have my druid wear armor made out of bacon?

Psyche

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Re: Druids and Metal Armor again
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2011, 06:34:43 PM »
NO THE DRUIDIC OATH SAYS DRUIDS MUST BE VEGETARIAN