Innocence implementation

[APorg]

I did a search on the forum quickly and couldn't find a place to see if this had been discussed. But one of the things I liked about the Ravenloft 3.0 book was the concept of Innocence.

Recap for those who haven't read it: since alignment, especially the moral axis, is meant to be vague in Ravenloft and most powers to divine or detect alignments tend to fail or be mislead. So instead, there is a more discernable metaphysical representation of "goodness", Innocence. As its name suggests, Innocence represents a character with an unblemished soul; Innocence is very easy to lose and, once lost, can never be regained.

I really feel the concept of Innoence drives home the tragedy side of the gothic horror setting in Ravenloft. After all, it's possible for a Good character to fall, but they can be redeemed (albeit with greater difficulty than usual in Ravenloft); and that fits redemption type stories well.

But it doesn't fit the true tragic stories of loss: the idea that certain actions can never be taken back, that once some sort of purity is lost, it can never be regained.

It's also intruiging to think about the way that Innocence detaches from the moral axis. After all, an Innocent character can technically be Evil (as long as they've always restrained their nature); conversely, a Good character can have lost their Innocence in one moment of lack of control and forever regret it.

I think it could bring a lot to the table in terms of story and roleplaying potential.

As to how one might mechanically represent it: I concede I'm not so sure about that one and it sounds a lot harder to do. Perhaps it could be represented by another piece of OOC equipment? e.g. "Your PC's Innocence". It could be an item that is activated to give whatever Innocence bonuses and penalties the books mention; while a secondary activation would allow a PC to destroy their Innocence, to represent losing it.

(Scripts or DMs could also be used to determine the loss of Innocence due to certain events -- e.g. attacking peasants, that sort of thing.)

Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there...

[Nemien Callishan]

Nem'd love to be considered innocent. Unfortunately with all the doubts and self loathing she's not sure she qualifies anymore. Not after one or two of the things she's unfortunately been involved with.

It would be a nice addition 'though.

[hugolino]

Innocence would be nice. Sanity might be too, and quite appropriate for some (unimplemented) domains of terror.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I really don't see how it would work in the NWN engine. It's too context-dependent for a script to check for when to remove it and having to rely on DMs to do it means that someone could exploit it when DMs aren't around.

[Ercvadasz]

Innocence would be nice. Sanity might be too, and quite appropriate for some (unimplemented) domains of terror.

to quote a classic.
Sanity is for the weak!

[hugolino]

I really don't see how it would work in the NWN engine. It's too context-dependent for a script to check for when to remove it and having to rely on DMs to do it means that someone could exploit it when DMs aren't around.

Delegate it to monster players. Granting power that isn't death-related to monster players isn't a bad thing. They worked hard to get their monsters and face the chance of perma-death.

Also it might make sense for "innocence" to temporarily regenerate on its own when "sanity" is low, but "innocence" regained due to lunacy (such as through repression, amnesia, schizophrenia, etc.) would be lost if "sanity" improves. As for "sanity" itself, it could possibly regenerate slowly over time (IE a tiny bit with each rest).

Just ideas.

The bigger question is what use would these statistics have in-game. It is arguable they could be given uses (passive buffs and vulnerabilities to certain saves, for example, aggro influence, reputation, or simply roleplay hooks), and it would be preferable they have some sort of consequences, even if minor. But what would they contribute to overall gameplay? More importantly, would the contribution be worth the effort required to implement them?

EDIT: I do recall a relevant free PDF online about adding an insanity/sanity statistic to Ravenloft pen-and-paper roleplaying games. I have it on my computer but can't remember where I downloaded it. I can quote excerpts if desired.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I really don't see how it would work in the NWN engine. It's too context-dependent for a script to check for when to remove it and having to rely on DMs to do it means that someone could exploit it when DMs aren't around.

Delegate it to monster players. Granting power that isn't death-related to monster players isn't a bad thing. They worked hard to get their monsters and face the chance of perma-death.

That doesn't make any sense. Innocence is lost when someone does an evil act worthy of a DP check or fails a horror/madness save. How would MPCs be a better choice when the problem is that nobody can watch a player all the time to see if they've done an evil act or failed a horror/madness check--this is fine for administering DP checks since powers are only granted by a DM, but Innocence is powerful by default and only removing it when someone else witnesses an evil act or horrific/maddening event is something that could be exploited horribly. Horror and madness cannot be implemented in a fair way through an automated scripted system, it depends too much on an individual character, the situation they're in, etc.

Also it might make sense for "innocence" to temporarily regenerate on its own when "sanity" is low, but "innocence" regained due to lunacy (such as through repression, amnesia, schizophrenia, etc.) would be lost if "sanity" improves. As for "sanity" itself, it could possibly regenerate slowly over time (IE a tiny bit with each rest).

That completely defeats the idea of Innocence though, you get powerful abilities but the trade-off is that once you lose it, it's gone forever. Having it "regenerate" is also imbalanced.

The bigger question is what use would these statistics have in-game. It is arguable they could be given uses (passive buffs and vulnerabilities to certain saves, for example, aggro influence, reputation, or simply roleplay hooks), and it would be preferable they have some sort of consequences, even if minor. But what would they contribute to overall gameplay? More importantly, would the contribution be worth the effort required to implement them?

I would say given the context-dependence, the fact that it would never be able to be implemented properly, and that it would be easily exploitable and thus imbalanced would make the effort not worth implementing.

[APorg]

You raise some godo points about the difficulty of implementing it, Bluebomber, but it occurs to me that if you fear that it could be abused outside of DM control, then it could still be implemented in a limited and controlled manner for DMs to play with; as an extra arrow to their story-telling arsenal, so to speak.

[hugolino]

Also it might make sense for "innocence" to temporarily regenerate on its own when "sanity" is low, but "innocence" regained due to lunacy (such as through repression, amnesia, schizophrenia, etc.) would be lost if "sanity" improves. As for "sanity" itself, it could possibly regenerate slowly over time (IE a tiny bit with each rest).

That completely defeats the idea of Innocence though, you get powerful abilities but the trade-off is that once you lose it, it's gone forever. Having it "regenerate" is also imbalanced.

I'm not actually the one who came up with the idea of temporarily regaining "innocence" under the influence of insanity. That mechanism is actually used in some fashion with two pen-and-paper RPGs that I know of. The idea behind it is that someone who is not fully sane can either blot out dehumanizing memories, act while blacked out in some way, or may not be fully culpable for acts committed due to their condition (see White Wolf's vampire line for one example).

The idea that sanity can be regained with rest and time (admittedly at a agonizingly slow trickle and with access to a cleric or counselor) comes from a Lovecraft-inspired RPG pdf I have if I recall correctly.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: I found the source of the idea and here is another interesting notion from it.

"A quick look at the rules above will reveal a “Matthew Effect” in Sanity. In other words the more sane you are to start with, the more likely you will stay sane and the quicker you will recover from insanities; And the less sane you are the more likely you will become insane and stay that way. This of course reflects the real life nature of sanity." (Timothy S. Brannan, MS.Ed., "Sanity in Ravenloft: Masque of the Red Death" -- NOT canon)

As for whether innocence is powerful, it does not even exist in-game at this time so the complaint seems premature. Even I didn't give any serious or thought out proposals for what the impact of innocence would be in game terms. There are many ways it could be implemented, which would vary from weak to powerful of course. I'd prefer the subtle approach. The simplest implementation of innocence and insanity would be to make them a reputation rating that the player and DMs are aware of. A little more complex implementation would be to also have some NPCs vaguely aware of it, and it simply affecting what they say. And so on.

Doesn't offering a system that could function as a much lesser form of the Dark Power check and Outcast Rating mechanics have any value for a persistent world that attempts to offer a Ravenloft setting?

Spoiler: show

"By all you hold sacred, by all you hold dear, by your love that is lost, by your hope that lives, for the sake of the Almighty, take me out of this and save my soul from guilt! Can't you hear me, man? Can't you understand? Will you never learn? Don't you know that I am sane and earnest now, that I am no lunatic in a mad fit, but a sane man fighting for his soul? Oh, hear me! Hear me! Let me go, let me go, let me go!” (R.M. Renfield in Bram Stoker's "Dracula")

EDIT: For the record, "The Realms of Terror," "Domains of Dread" and "The Masque of the Red Death" campaign settings do have a "Madness" check although it lacks the subtlety of a full-fledged "Sanity" attribute a la "Call of Cthulhu" or "The Complete Guide to Sanity For Fantasy Role-Playing Games."

[Winter83]

Like the ideas. Some side notes: you can still count your influence, sanity on paper and act accordingly. I do similar with alignment. as there's no DM on. On paper I note down minor changes +/- fives on both axles.
Mechanical implementation of such would be welcomed by players who can rp such without mechanics and would only annoy those who would not rp such anyway.

[hugolino]

Like the ideas. Some side notes: you can still count your influence, sanity on paper and act accordingly. I do similar with alignment. as there's no DM on. On paper I note down minor changes +/- fives on both axles.
Mechanical implementation of such would be welcomed by players who can rp such without mechanics and would only annoy those who would not rp such anyway.

Valid points.

Although the same argument could be made against other modified aspects of "Neverwinter Nights" gameplay on this server. But I surrender on this topic. So be it.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Also it might make sense for "innocence" to temporarily regenerate on its own when "sanity" is low, but "innocence" regained due to lunacy (such as through repression, amnesia, schizophrenia, etc.) would be lost if "sanity" improves. As for "sanity" itself, it could possibly regenerate slowly over time (IE a tiny bit with each rest).

That completely defeats the idea of Innocence though, you get powerful abilities but the trade-off is that once you lose it, it's gone forever. Having it "regenerate" is also imbalanced.

I'm not actually the one who came up with the idea of temporarily regaining "innocence" under the influence of insanity. That mechanism is actually used in some fashion with two pen-and-paper RPGs that I know of. The idea behind it is that someone who is not fully sane can either blot out dehumanizing memories, act while blacked out in some way, or may not be fully culpable for acts committed due to their condition (see White Wolf's vampire line for one example).

The idea that sanity can be regained with rest and time (admittedly at a agonizingly slow trickle and with access to a cleric or counselor) comes from a Lovecraft-inspired RPG pdf I have if I recall correctly.

Spoiler: show

EDIT: I found the source of the idea and here is another interesting notion from it.

"A quick look at the rules above will reveal a “Matthew Effect” in Sanity. In other words the more sane you are to start with, the more likely you will stay sane and the quicker you will recover from insanities; And the less sane you are the more likely you will become insane and stay that way. This of course reflects the real life nature of sanity." (Timothy S. Brannan, MS.Ed., "Sanity in Ravenloft: Masque of the Red Death" -- NOT canon)

As for whether innocence is powerful, it does not even exist in-game at this time so the complaint seems premature. Even I didn't give any serious or thought out proposals for what the impact of innocence would be in game terms. There are many ways it could be implemented, which would vary from weak to powerful of course. I'd prefer the subtle approach. The simplest implementation of innocence and insanity would be to make them a reputation rating that the player and DMs are aware of. A little more complex implementation would be to also have some NPCs vaguely aware of it, and it simply affecting what they say. And so on.

Doesn't offering a system that could function as a much lesser form of the Dark Power check and Outcast Rating mechanics have any value for a persistent world that attempts to offer a Ravenloft setting?

Spoiler: show

"By all you hold sacred, by all you hold dear, by your love that is lost, by your hope that lives, for the sake of the Almighty, take me out of this and save my soul from guilt! Can't you hear me, man? Can't you understand? Will you never learn? Don't you know that I am sane and earnest now, that I am no lunatic in a mad fit, but a sane man fighting for his soul? Oh, hear me! Hear me! Let me go, let me go, let me go!” (R.M. Renfield in Bram Stoker's "Dracula")

EDIT: For the record, "The Realms of Terror," "Domains of Dread" and "The Masque of the Red Death" campaign settings do have a "Madness" check although it lacks the subtlety of a full-fledged "Sanity" attribute a la "Call of Cthulhu" or "The Complete Guide to Sanity For Fantasy Role-Playing Games."

You're confusing sanity and innocence here. They're not the same thing, though they are related. Incurring a Madness check for the first time results in permanent loss of Innocence, even if you regain your sanity later.

And Innocence is powerful. It gives you a +3 Will save bonus against any evil creature or spells that require DP checks when cast, and on this server that's plenty powerful if would be implemented. It's something that could be done in the NWN engine in a single-player module, or even a small local vault multi-player module with a single DM overseeing everything. But on a PW that's always up and designed to run without being constantly being monitored, there's just no way you can make a script that can account for all the different and varying ways one can incur madness, horror, fear, commit an unspeakably evil act, or lose innocence. Unlike Outcast Ratings, which have specific things like "using magic in front of Barovians," horror/fear/madness/DP checks/losing innocence are too broad and dependent on the specific situation.

[Dread]

This is somewhat on a tangent, but because people are talking about sanity checks... really, that's more relegated for cosmic horror like the Call of Cthulhu campaigns than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I want people to roleplay fear like the next Bela Lugosi, but you can't exactly force people to roleplay fear, horror, madness, et cetera by just implementing mechanics.

Also, perhaps I am cyncial, but I've seen a lot of poor players on other servers I played on previously think that being insane means they have carte blanche to act in a stupid and unbelievable way, kill lowbies indiscriminately and in a way that does not really further any plot or create any sort of setting, and overall be douche-nozzles. I'd hate to have that sort of thing happen here, whenever people fail too many sanity or madness checks, so I think it's good that DMs are the ones that bestow madness checks et al.

Perhaps a DP-esque soft bonus that grants the properties Innocence gives could be bestowed upon those who have somehow braved something truly traumatizing, made all the will saves that the DMs dole out during that horrifying event? Just an idea.