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Author Topic: Vampire Priests  (Read 4322 times)

BreakFree

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Vampire Priests
« on: August 17, 2011, 09:32:08 PM »
So, I think this is the right section for this. I've run into this numerous times and have always been curious about it. I know that technically, a vampire priest is a cleric, and has access to divine spells - but in regards to gameplay, I feel that a vampire casting Hammer of the Gods five times, and then Searing Light to put some salt in the wounds is a bit... strange? An evil creature casting a heavenly pillar of divine death in the midst of six other vampires, piling on damage to the PC group, but not injuring them or their companions in the process seems very backwards. 

It's just a question though, not trying to start a flame-fest. They are powerful spells and likely match the CR of the spawn, but I feel as if Inflict Critical Wounds would be a more fitting spell for a vampire rather than Hammer of the Gods, or any of [Inflict Serious Wounds/Contagion/Blindness or Deafness/Bestow Curse/Animate Dead] in place of Searing Light.



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ethinos

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »
Near as far as I can tell, Hammer of the Gods is a Bioware creation, and thus silly to begin with. However, nothing about it states that the spell is good aligned, nor anti-undead. (It doesn't do extra damage to evil nor undead, after all.) But a vampire messing around with Searing Light does sound a bit off.
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Swiftar

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »
Good call on Hammer.  I couldn't find that in any of the books/resources I have.  Might just be a Bioware created spell, or some obscure spell in a random book.

Searing Light though, uh.  Yeah.  Should probably not be cast by undead.



BreakFree

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 09:57:26 PM »
Near as far as I can tell, Hammer of the Gods is a Bioware creation, and thus silly to begin with. However, nothing about it states that the spell is good aligned, nor anti-undead. (It doesn't do extra damage to evil nor undead, after all.) But a vampire messing around with Searing Light does sound a bit off.

That makes more sense, I suppose. The fact that it does divine damage is what threw me off, I just figured a negative energy damaging spell made more sense.
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Renegadelycan

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 09:59:01 PM »
Hammer of the Gods is a Bioware creation, and thus silly to begin with.

Never diss the Bioware... they are good at what they do.. or at least they were until they sold out to EA.. curse EA.. curse EA's MMO's.. curse EA's attempt at an NwN MMO...

Also, are we suggesting that Bane can't have a hammer because he's evil? That's just.... alignment...est...

This should probably be looked into and according to the monster information, no undead should have any holy powers whatsoever anyways because they are eternally damned and cast away by all the gods they once held dear. This may be different in Ravenloft for all we know though... which brings me to the question of a "Good Aligned Paladin Vampire".. what gives with that? Does that sound wrong to anyone other than me?
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BreakFree

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 10:05:34 PM »
Hammer of the Gods is a Bioware creation, and thus silly to begin with.

Also, are we suggesting that Bane can't have a hammer because he's evil? That's just.... alignment...est...

This should probably be looked into and according to the monster information, no undead should have any holy powers whatsoever anyways because they are eternally damned and cast away by all the gods they once held dear. This may be different in Ravenloft for all we know though... which brings me to the question of a "Good Aligned Paladin Vampire".. what gives with that? Does that sound wrong to anyone other than me?

Like I said, technically they can do what they want. They're Clerics and have the spells. It just seems goofy to me that any Evil aligned character should be casting divine damage spells, especially an undead character, like you said. Since there are no alignment restrictions (I don't think many spells, if any, have that) I guess it's a matter of being logical.
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firebrand

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 10:13:42 PM »
Technically the Dark Powers can let people do whatever they see fit. Maybe it gives them a good belly laugh to see everyone so puzzled by a Vampire tossing around divine power... who's to say?
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Renegadelycan

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 10:14:08 PM »
Warning: I'm sorry but I'm going to be THAT GUY

I wouldn't be one to start arguing logic in this type of roleplay setting.. not a whole lot about anything in Ravenloft is purely logic.
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The_Reapers_Wraith

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 10:33:20 PM »
It doesn't even need to be about being logical, it's about fitting with the setting.  Vampires casting searing light is just plain strange.  Vampires that are able to use divine powers seems a bit strange to me, and in regards to rp a bit out of place.

Renegadelycan

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 10:35:36 PM »
Don't get me wrong I totally agree with you.

But everything in Ravenloft points towards one ultimate fact...

The Dark Powers can do what they want, when they want, to who they want. I don't see it being a common sort of thing, but as for being   -possible-.. definately.


Edit: Furthermoe by definition the Searing Light spell is not a conjuration of sunlight, it is described as white hot light meaning it is merely a light so intense that it is as hot as white fire. Similar to lights that come from a source such as candles, torches, lamps, and lightbulbs.. I don't believe this kind of light would have any kind of adverse effect on a vampire aside from those it would have on any other creature.. which in this case.. is the melting of the victim's face or other body part.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:39:05 PM by Renegadelycan »
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DM Nocturne

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 10:38:10 PM »
This is not a DM view but a personal view - that perhaps Vampires worship evil deities, da? And evil deities still provide divinity. Do sourcebooks say that divine damage is good-aligned only?

But do agree that Vampires would probably have a hard time casting spells that involved solar light...

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 10:40:19 PM »
Yeah, well, that's not really the Dark Powers aren't really the topic of this conversation.  The topic involves game play balance which seems to be off.

Renegadelycan

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 10:42:59 PM »
[snip snip] solar light...

"The caster directs a beam of white-hot light at a single target."

Granted it does extra damage to undead creatures this could simply be because of their cold flesh or sensativity to the warmth of light which they tend to avoid. Ever had someone turn the lights on to wake you up when you've been sleeping for 12+ hours? Burns doesn't it?

Now if we were talking about Sunbeam.. well that'd be a whole different story.

From what I am seeing this is less about game balance and more about the concern that this doesn't fit correctly into the setting. As stated before, it is believed by the creator of this topic that the two spells mentioned are both levels that match the CR of the creatures which use them thusly declaring this to actually be balanced. I believe this may be more about the possibilities and the likelyhoods.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:47:19 PM by Renegadelycan »
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Kenkaku

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 10:45:42 PM »
If you wanna get technical, Evil clerics (like most Vampires) are not necessarily restricted from the usage of any spells for various reasons. If they are, it's because they are Good-aligned (or some deity-specific restriction), which often means they're Positive Energy spells.

Divine Damage does not affect undead in any special way whatsoever, it's just another damage type. Specifically, the power of the Cleric's god, albeit in an unholy form rather than holy (which NWN does not emulate).

So, an Evil Vampire Cleric could cast Hammer of the Gods simply because it's a generic offensive spell with no real restriction.

The same priest could conceivably cast Searing Light as well since it's also a generic damage-type spell like Hammer. The only issue I would see from an IC perspective is using it on a non-undead target which would severely weaken the spell. Unfortunately, there are very few offensive Cleric spell that low-level (that I know of) besides the Inflict spells, and those are Touch spells instead of Ranged spells. Meaning, that semi-squishy cleric would have to get into melee intentionally to cast it. Which is kinna dumb since they have Warriors and Rogues for that job.

This is not a DM view but a personal view - that perhaps Vampires worship evil deities, da? And evil deities still provide divinity. Do sourcebooks say that divine damage is good-aligned only?

^--- Like he said, Even the evil ones can get divine powers. There are evil gods, undead ones, too.
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BreakFree

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 10:46:45 PM »
[snip snip] solar light...

"The caster directs a beam of white-hot light at a single target."

Granted it does extra damage to undead creatures this could simply be because of their cold flesh or sensativity to the warmth of light which they tend to avoid. Ever had someone turn the lights on to wake you up when you've been sleeping for 12+ hours? Burns doesn't it?

If it does extra damage to the undead, why should the undead, in an RP setting, be able to cast it? They can, yes. It is 'white-hot light', yes. But, it is light, and it does 1d8 to 10d8 damage to undead creatures.
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Renegadelycan

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 10:51:53 PM »
Vampires should be able to use sunlight light oriented spells for the same reason that a werewolf should be able to hold a silver blade.

If the silver cuts them.. it hurts them as a weakness

If the silver cuts someone else.. it doesn't have any effect on the werewolf using the blade

Edit: I'm all out of energy, going to bed, see you all tommorrow afternoon no more rebuttles from good ol' renegade for now.

Edit #2: I actually modified my post this time, vampires should be able to use -sunlight- oriented spells for the same reason.. blah blah and what have you...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 10:56:45 PM by Renegadelycan »
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firebrand

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 10:54:06 PM »
I personally don't see it as a game play balance issue however the Ravenloft PHB states this about searing light

"The dread realms give certain advantages to undead creatures. In Ravenloft undead creatures can make a Will save for half damage."

Likewise the PHB says that Sunbeam and Sunburst count as direct sunlight. So for those particular spells it should be an issue, but not for searing light.
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The_Reapers_Wraith

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 10:59:28 PM »
I feel like even if the vampire WAS able to cast such spells like this, the fact that they take more damage from said spell would make them somewhat leery of even using it.  Instead, we constantly see them flinging these spells around.  To me, it just doesn't make much sense to use something that they would actually be pretty intimidated by.

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 11:03:02 PM »
I dunno... your greatest weakness can be your greatest strength..

I.E.

Lich Hunters on multiple accounts are said to have made deals with a Vassalich to destroy their more powerful masters. They aren't allies.. in fact they are mortal enemies.. much in the same way that vampires can be considered polars opposites to sunlight. Though, if it helps you win a fight it helps you win a fight and that's all they need to convince them. But srzly now.. going to bed.. for reals...
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Mr. Thorn

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 11:20:43 PM »
I dunno... your greatest weakness can be your greatest strength..


All I have to say is you better not be an undead and make a vampire priest mad or you'll feel the full effect :lol:
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 11:23:30 PM by Verand »

If you are smart then you can have power. We all know that power corrupts. So if you are smart you will become evil. No wonder all the good guys are idiots.

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2011, 11:32:28 PM »
  Was fighting a group of six vampire's, i watched as a vampire sorceror killed every single one around her, with Undeath to Death.

Mr. Thorn

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2011, 12:28:41 AM »
  Was fighting a group of six vampire's, i watched as a vampire sorceror killed every single one around her, with Undeath to Death.

[Nods] Fun Time's.

If you are smart then you can have power. We all know that power corrupts. So if you are smart you will become evil. No wonder all the good guys are idiots.

Coolreject

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2011, 12:58:37 AM »
I personally don't think that's weird at all. Undeath to Death is just a Circle of Death for undead creatures. No one would think there is anything weird about a living creature casting Circle of Death, nor any of the other spells designed to kill living creatures. A vampire aiming a searing light or whatever away from himself and towards his enemies is no different from a living mage making sure not to blow himself up with a fireball.

Also, like it was said before, Divine != Good.

Although that is pretty hilarious, I remember in default NWN AI if an undead creature is equipped with a healing potion they'll drink it at low health and kill themselves.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 01:00:21 AM by Coolreject »

BreakFree

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 02:29:05 AM »
Vampires should be able to use sunlight light oriented spells for the same reason that a werewolf should be able to hold a silver blade.

If the silver cuts them.. it hurts them as a weakness

If the silver cuts someone else.. it doesn't have any effect on the werewolf using the blade

Edit: I'm all out of energy, going to bed, see you all tommorrow afternoon no more rebuttles from good ol' renegade for now.

Edit #2: I actually modified my post this time, vampires should be able to use -sunlight- oriented spells for the same reason.. blah blah and what have you...

You're making this way too technical, I think. I was simply asking for the sake of an RP server, is an undead creature slinging divine spells around (one of the two that is based off of light and harms the undead specifically) a proper spell selection when instead they could be using inflict critical and serious wounds - spells that seem more evil in nature as they are based on negative energy damage.

EDIT: Yes, I'm stereotyping 'evil' and negative energy there. But, to me, I'd rather see a vampire bring down a pillar of red death than a pillar of holy might to smite my party. Maybe I'm odd.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 02:33:49 AM by BreakFree »
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Ingwulf

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Re: Vampire Priests
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2011, 03:45:48 AM »
In all fairness undeads should not use divinity to hurt others.... my opinion...

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