Author Topic: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?  (Read 23764 times)

Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2011, 03:59:52 AM »
Emomina and Ercvadasz - my thoughts exactly. The part with a high skill martial class isn't also that superb. A fighter gets 2 skills, ranger 4, but a true ranger must take hide and move silently, so in a way - its back to 2 skills as for a fighter :-).

The change to a 3.5 ranger would alter this class greatly and made it finally playable (in a mechanical way). Hide in plain sight on 12 (only in natural, If needed I can find a way how our scripter pulled it off on our old server) would give a great alternative for the shadow dancer.

The topic spell - imo a vampiric property would suit this char best - plus it would be something unique and worth having. The duration suggested the same as greater magic weapon, bonus the same (+1 +2 +3 +4 +5 on 4 8 12 16 20).

As for the cats grace and one with the land - what changes where done for that?

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2011, 06:22:49 AM »
My biclassed ranger/bard (8-6 ratio right now) Arden made me really satisfied in any circumstance he was on, he was mostly an archer, and a multicrafter. That is, mostly it has been time draining, because he made himself his varnishes, arrows, potions and most gear he wore, but it made an excellent RP story until I played him. I even think as ranger 14 instead of multiclass, with the similar build (high dex, high const, archer mostly) he could have been useful in many circumstances more: he mostly played ranged, but that gave him the chance to heal people, or to replace the tanker (given his high HP amount) to give him the chance to recover some. Not a big damage dealer, but pragmatic. Then if you want a pure sneaker, go for rogue, if a pure tanker, fighter and barbarian. For me, as it is now, the ranger is quite pragmatic, and it needs some more tactical sense to be played.

I've played also NWN2 with a ranger, and it follows 3.5 rules: admittedly I felt more powerful.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2011, 07:15:56 AM »
My biclassed ranger/bard (8-6 ratio right now) Arden made me really satisfied in any circumstance he was on, he was mostly an archer, and a multicrafter. That is, mostly it has been time draining, because he made himself his varnishes, arrows, potions and most gear he wore, but it made an excellent RP story until I played him. I even think as ranger 14 instead of multiclass, with the similar build (high dex, high const, archer mostly) he could have been useful in many circumstances more: he mostly played ranged, but that gave him the chance to heal people, or to replace the tanker (given his high HP amount) to give him the chance to recover some. Not a big damage dealer, but pragmatic. Then if you want a pure sneaker, go for rogue, if a pure tanker, fighter and barbarian. For me, as it is now, the ranger is quite pragmatic, and it needs some more tactical sense to be played.

I've played also NWN2 with a ranger, and it follows 3.5 rules: admittedly I felt more powerful.

Tarokka, we are talking about pure rangers only.
It was mentioned in the previous posts quite on a lot of occasions, that a multiclass ranger is quite powerfull, since the additions it gives to other classes is good(8 free feats, to rogues or bards!), or the other classes one takes make those hindrances the ranger suffers neglected.

The problem is if you want to stay pure, as a ranger than you have major problems.
A ranger/rogue a ranger/bard is a very good AC tank because they get tumble, not to mention the extra useage of magical items, since they get umd with the taken non ranger classes. (ofc not everyone does it.)
What you say with the varnishes, potions, arrows and such, is basicly allready in effect for allmost all other classes, even casters, clerics whatnot take several potions with them.
That is why the potion market is dwindling because it is not worth to sell it, because nobody knows when you will ever need one. (And half these guys regularly hunt on herbs to resupply them!)
The ranger could be pragmatic, but sadly it does not have enough things for it.
Its spellcasting abilities are quite limited. Usefull spells of the list on the server are 2-3/per level.
CLW, elemental resist, cats grace, and the sneak bonus giving ones. It is not worht to take offensive spells since your DC will be very low to be of much use.
To have a decent AC you have to sacrifice either feats or con/str/wisdom/int. Beside the charisma all abilities are needed for a ranger. Int for skills, wisdom for spells, dex for AC and range bonus, str, to hit and damage not to mention carry capacity!(heavy consumeable reliance!) Con, well they need hp...
The skill points they gain is not enough, 2 allready go for sneak.
They gain their spells quite late, especially the one that is the most usefull to them, and even that one is considered quite weak opposed to the other same effect giving spells.
Cant remove his own traps! His search is limited to the 30-s range (if i recall well) from which only a rogue is able to notice the traps (even if he cant removeing them spotting them is quite allright!)
A ranger is usually the scout guy of the wilds, a survivalist, for which he would need skill points, a decent ranger in my oppinion needs the following skills on this server:
Ms, hide, heal, parry, discipline/concentration, spot/listen, lore, set traps...even with the optional take one of the two i suggest with /, you will need to be a human ranger with 14 int or any other with 16 to have all these! (On an RP server the skills are quite important!)
Going for metal armor needs 2-3 feats to be able to still dualwield, not to mention the ACP which gives a reduction to your skills. Hard to find a chain shirt that actually gives some back of the reductions.
The animal companion is a joke at most times. It is a true meat shield to cover your escape.
Its so called GMW, the blade thirst only effects slash weapons, makeing pierce specced dual wielders (AKA finesse based), have their only weapon buffing spell effectless on them.
(yeah they should go with dual kukris...) Not to mention it comes to them at a very late time! on level 12!
Not to mention the penalties that will not be eliminated from the dual wielding, the ability to heighten your ab is quite a limited case too.

We all know what the situation is with the multiclassed rangers(they rock), but we are talking about the normal ones. Which is utterly underpowered considering every  other class.

It is the problem that the ranger is very ability resiliant which was partially taken away from 3.5, making it a much more usefull and balanced class.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:05:14 PM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2011, 09:54:14 AM »
[edit out, stupid new user are stupid]

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2011, 01:51:21 PM »
I've always dreamed to make a wildness survivalist, skilled, self reliant. The only way to do it is multiclassing. 4 skills points per level is simply madness. The bard also gets the same 4 I think.... Rangers and Bards should be getting 6(+int) each to make them truly skilled as they are supposed to be.

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2011, 05:08:24 AM »
Hey folks, leave the rangers be already. They are meant to be seriously gimped on this server, so despite the vaste wilderness areas discourage anyone picking more than 3 ranger levels, and then have those cry for remake.

Ranger's mechanic wise ought to suck in tracking (spot/search/lore combination of skills which makes the very few ranger skill points more streched out), spells are nerfed, have a terribly weak meatshield pet that would last for 1 round in battle, sneaking is nerfed, even the sneaking spells are, you won't survive any longer in wilderness areas than the rest, neither will you get a faster pace, traps are nerfed, best trap one can make is a minor one, the rest cost insane amount of money.

So yeah, let's just drop the topic, and get used to the extra weaknesses of the class and talk about something else, something more fruitfull. Pick rangers only if you want one only for the sake rp and no dungeons or PVPs. 8)

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2011, 09:42:36 AM »
[Secretly plotting to be the highest level ranger on the server]

 :lol: Has a level 18 pure ranger  :lol: honestly even blade thirst i find useful course my guy usually had a cleric or wizard tagging along with a rogue to balance things

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2011, 10:05:08 AM »
[Secretly plotting to be the highest level ranger on the server]

 :lol: Has a level 18 pure ranger  :lol: honestly even blade thirst i find useful course my guy usually had a cleric or wizard tagging along with a rogue to balance things

Only 18?  n00b.   8)

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2011, 09:57:58 PM »
[Secretly plotting to be the highest level ranger on the server]

 :lol: Has a level 18 pure ranger  :lol: honestly even blade thirst i find useful course my guy usually had a cleric or wizard tagging along with a rogue to balance things

Only 18?  n00b.   8)

eh well that was where he got permaed :P if i recall your higher but i was simply making a point that its possible was all

LackofCertainty

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2011, 08:33:37 AM »
To have a decent AC you have to sacrifice either feats or con/str/wisdom/int. Beside the charisma all abilities are needed for a ranger. Int for skills, wisdom for spells, dex for AC and range bonus, str, to hit and damage not to mention carry capacity!(heavy consumeable reliance!) Con, well they need hp...

I think rangers are a little weak, but right here, you're pointing out a flaw in your building strat.

You want to make a ranger who is best at everything, but that's silly.  No character is best at everything.  If you make a jack of all trades you have to be a master of none. You have to specialize if you want to be the best in any one category.

Do you want to make a good archer-ranger? High dex and skimp some on con.  Rangers have very high base health so they're not as squishy with low con as other archers.

18 dex +full ab + cat's grace.  Highest AB archer in the game and most attacks per round.  No other pure class can match that as far as I know without using consumables.



It's like a monk.  Monks use Str, Dex, Con, and Wis heavily, but if you don't specialize a bit then your monk ends up being a mediocre mess.  If you want a monk that does damage you need to sacrifice survivability.  If you want a monk with godly ac, then you have to give up some damage.


One final bit: You keep chanting "We're only talking about pure classes here, because multiclassing is a whole different beast" but then whenever someone says how pure rangers are good at what they do you say, "But a Fighter/Rogue is better"    Which is it? Are we talking about pure classes or are we talking about the class in general?  (also you're skipping over the fact that fighter/rogues have less ab and less attacks per round than a pure ranger  and that a ranger/rogue is just as viable as a fighter/rogue)


Edit: Got so caught up in that rant that I forgot the subject! XD

You mentioned that ranger's get 1/2 caster levels.  Is that true in nwn?   That would mean that GMW would be effing useless for them on this server?   GMW doesn't hit +2 until caster level 8, and +3 at caster 12.  That means a ranger would get +2 from gmw at lvl 16, and would never hit +3...

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:45:02 AM by LackofCertainty »

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2011, 04:09:08 PM »

I think rangers are a little weak, but right here, you're pointing out a flaw in your building strat.

You want to make a ranger who is best at everything, but that's silly.  No character is best at everything.  If you make a jack of all trades you have to be a master of none. You have to specialize if you want to be the best in any one category.

Do you want to make a good archer-ranger? High dex and skimp some on con.  Rangers have very high base health so they're not as squishy with low con as other archers.
18 dex +full ab + cat's grace.  Highest AB archer in the game and most attacks per round.  No other pure class can match that as far as I know without using consumables.

Actually this is halfly true. I allready stated previously that sadly a druid is mostly the better archer. They have owls insight, which stacks with owls wisdom potions makeing them reach the 30 wisdom cap fairly easy. With zen archery this would mean +10 bonus just alone from their abilities.(I had a build like this!) Add to this they can cast empowered bulls, and they can even max out their damage with bows. Hitting more and doing more damage.

It's like a monk.  Monks use Str, Dex, Con, and Wis heavily, but if you don't specialize a bit then your monk ends up being a mediocre mess.  If you want a monk that does damage you need to sacrifice survivability.  If you want a monk with godly ac, then you have to give up some damage.

Yes i had this build with my ranger, but it was not working, i deleveled him, than releveled him(from level3) took up different skills/feats and spent abilitiy points differently, he actually is much more usefull than he was previously. And he is still a mediocre char at best considering his stats. Not to mention that the monk gets built in compensation of ki attack which gives extra AB and damage, as he progresses.

One final bit: You keep chanting "We're only talking about pure classes here, because multiclassing is a whole different beast" but then whenever someone says how pure rangers are good at what they do you say, "But a Fighter/Rogue is better"    Which is it? Are we talking about pure classes or are we talking about the class in general?  (also you're skipping over the fact that fighter/rogues have less ab and less attacks per round than a pure ranger  and that a ranger/rogue is just as viable as a fighter/rogue)

Well if we are talking about pure classes, and someone else drops in a multiclass that directs the whole talk of the subject away. Secondly maybe fighter rogue has less ab, and less attacks per round, but he has feats that are available only to him, and he likely has extra ac, has sneak attack, and can use such items via umd, that most of the classes cannot. I know this because i have a seriously mutliclassed character, he is a totally crappy build, because i made him skillfocused, yet with a few chosen levels i obtained freely about 10(!) feats, serious boost to certain skills, while i can even perform damage, and i would say he is far more powerfull than my ranger, if the same equipment would be provided to both of them. (I gathered a lot of things for my ranger and about half or more of his capabilities come from these items and consumables)

Edit: Got so caught up in that rant that I forgot the subject! XD

You mentioned that ranger's get 1/2 caster levels.  Is that true in nwn?   That would mean that GMW would be effing useless for them on this server?   GMW doesn't hit +2 until caster level 8, and +3 at caster 12.  That means a ranger would get +2 from gmw at lvl 16, and would never hit +3...

Yes, this may have been a mistake by me, because i cant find the page i used to check it upon, and apparantly it seems this only applies in nwn 2.
//Though i know that one with the land has actually only the quarter of the duration of my chars actual level, but this may be because of altered spells, not sure.//
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 05:56:17 AM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2011, 04:28:52 PM »
18 dex +full ab + cat's grace.  Highest AB archer in the game and most attacks per round.  No other pure class can match that as far as I know without using consumables.

Nope!  A cleric could do it easily.  Full wis + owl's wisdom + bull's strength + zen archery + weapon focus: bow + divine power + divine might + divine favor is going to have an equal or better AB with the bow, as many attacks, take full (or at least better) advantage of a mighty +6 bow, and deliver all of the additional divine and magic damage at range.  It's only for the duration of the divine power (and other) spells, but by the time it becomes possible that cleric would be a mighty artillery piece of doom for a couple minutes at a time, more than enough for most battles.  Get a friendly druid to toss owl's insight into the mix and you're looking at the best possible ranged AB possible.  Add in a few more archery-related feats and that cleric is seriously kicking butt.  And that's not even counting haste potions and varnishes for the arrows...

Now, you could say that the cleric specialized in all this stuff and therefore deserves to be the battle-beast that it is because it suffers in other areas.  The problem is, that's just not so -- with just the non-domain spell selection even a suboptimal cleric is a melee master as well.

The thing is, this isn't an argument for nerfing clerics.  This is an argument for strengthening rangers.  Nobody in here is proposing anything that would turn the ranger into some sort of god-class that trumps everything on the server, just tweaks that would make rangers actually able to fulfill their combat- and RP-roles in a competent manner.


Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2011, 05:53:29 AM »
18 dex +full ab + cat's grace.  Highest AB archer in the game and most attacks per round.  No other pure class can match that as far as I know without using consumables.

Nope!  A cleric could do it easily.  Full wis + owl's wisdom + bull's strength + zen archery + weapon focus: bow + divine power + divine might + divine favor is going to have an equal or better AB with the bow, as many attacks, take full (or at least better) advantage of a mighty +6 bow, and deliver all of the additional divine and magic damage at range.  It's only for the duration of the divine power (and other) spells, but by the time it becomes possible that cleric would be a mighty artillery piece of doom for a couple minutes at a time, more than enough for most battles.  Get a friendly druid to toss owl's insight into the mix and you're looking at the best possible ranged AB possible.  Add in a few more archery-related feats and that cleric is seriously kicking butt.  And that's not even counting haste potions and varnishes for the arrows...

Now, you could say that the cleric specialized in all this stuff and therefore deserves to be the battle-beast that it is because it suffers in other areas.  The problem is, that's just not so -- with just the non-domain spell selection even a suboptimal cleric is a melee master as well.

The thing is, this isn't an argument for nerfing clerics.  This is an argument for strengthening rangers.  Nobody in here is proposing anything that would turn the ranger into some sort of god-class that trumps everything on the server, just tweaks that would make rangers actually able to fulfill their combat- and RP-roles in a competent manner.


Well i did not even know that clerics are capable of this. (I dont really played them in nwn, nor am i good with powerbuilding.)

About the rangers, basicly in a party usually everyone is better at anything the ranger could be in. Even a dual wielder fighter is better at dual wielding than a ranger.
They have most likely higher ab, and more damage (less abilities required, more feats available.) (That is why usually greater twf or superior twf is only available for rangers to give them that extra bonus with dual wield, however this is not the situation in nwn.)
The rangers favoured enemy is sadly more of a joke, especially with the new lore system a ranger cannot even identify their favoured enemies anymore.
Rangers greatest milestone is basicly when they get blade thirst, on level 12. Sadly they do not have the chance of aquiring sad scrolls before. I havent met any npc
that sells these, nor have i found it in a loot drop ever. this is strange since GMF is available to buy.

The rangers caliban bracers give minus to your reflex, whereas i checked, the other classes extra spell slot giving items somehow do not have such negative or reductive effects.(Rangers caliban bracers give -3 influence and -1 reflex, i can understand the influence but why the reflex??? Just think on the ring that gives clerics a level 8 or 9 bonus slot!)
Basicly as a ranger you may choose to go on the fighters path, at which most likely whatever weapon you choose a fighter will be more capable with it (makes sense).
You can go sneaker, in which again a rogue will be better. You can go dex build based, and shoot arrows, in which mentioned two examples beat you, you can go finesse
way, a rogue or a fighter will likely be better at it. Or you can make a jack of all trades, not being able to be especially good in anything but allowing you to have slight advantage at certain circumstances, because you have a minor chance of handling every situation. (I forgot to add the caster ranger, but well, even a paladin gets his or her higher leveled spells sooner than a ranger!, not to mention you should roll a druid than.)

I think adding a bonus to their stamina (vs exhaustion) or adding a bonus to their stabilizing rolls would help them.
Because rangers are survival specialist it would make sense to give them a bonus point or two for every level of ranger they take to their stabilizing rolls.
eg. level 10 ranger with 12 con, will have +11 to his stabilizing roll, meaning he only needs to roll a 79 to stabilize. (It is not that much of a bonus, but at least some
bonus, and rewarding for those that go pure ranger level.)
For stamina bonus: the ranger gets points equal to half of his actual levels to his exhaustion treshold.
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2011, 06:49:11 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2011, 07:10:28 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...

there's a 'upgraded' pair i have seen that dont...

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2011, 07:42:22 AM »
Cleric ring with bonus spell of 8 or 9 lvl is ridicullous of course.
About other penalties... -3 will to paladins isnt something significant because they have protection from evil and add charisma bonus to their saves.
-1 Reflex also not noticeable because rangers dont have evasion in nwn anyway and they have Cat's  grace which nulifies that penalty.
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2011, 08:30:09 AM »
Plus... just throwing this out there... if you arrange your spell slots appropriately, it's fairly easy to make the caliban bracers an item that you put on to rest, and take off once you've buffed yourself and you're ready to get serious.  -1 reflex isn't a huge deal to be carrying around till that point.


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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2011, 01:33:03 PM »
Cleric ring with bonus spell of 8 or 9 lvl is ridicullous of course.
About other penalties... -3 will to paladins isnt something significant because they have protection from evil and add charisma bonus to their saves.
-1 Reflex also not noticeable because rangers dont have evasion in nwn anyway and they have Cat's  grace which nulifies that penalty.

so many times it was just that -1 reflex that was missing to save against the spell. And sadly taking up half or full damage from a spell does matter, protection, dr and other
stuff wise.
Koopa whereas i know waht you mean,  if you only have 2 level 2 spell slots, and take both cats grace, it may happen that you cast, than remove bracers and cannot recast:(

about the paladin bracers i only found the one that had no negative effects only, seems i was lucky.
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2011, 02:11:22 PM »
You guys didn't read my message, so I'll try saying it again.

Rangers have Full base ab.  (Most attacks per round)
Of full base ab peeps, they have the best total ab. (Barbarians and fighters don't get cat's grace as a spell)

Clerics and druids and god knows what else could beat them in certain categories, yes, but the ranger still has more attacks per round than either of them. (Divine power doesn't work as intended. It gives the ab but not the attacks)  It is a small niche that archer-rangers fill, but it is all theirs.



Edit: Actually maybe a pally could beat a ranger for full attacks and ab and damage? Wis based and all that.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:26:52 PM by LackofCertainty »

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2011, 02:39:46 PM »
You guys didn't read my message, so I'll try saying it again.

Rangers have Full base ab.  (Most attacks per round)
Of full base ab peeps, they have the best total ab. (Barbarians and fighters don't get cat's grace as a spell)

Clerics and druids and god knows what else could beat them in certain categories, yes, but the ranger still has more attacks per round than either of them. (Divine power doesn't work as intended. It gives the ab but not the attacks)  It is a small niche that archer-rangers fill, but it is all theirs.

actually we did read.
Rangers get full base ab, but they get reduction to it when dual wielding. -2/-2 if offhand is small weapon or -2/-4 if offhand is not small weapon.
Even the dual wield supporting two handed weapons like double blade and double axe give -2/-2 to attacks.
The offhand weapon allways gets half damage bonus(rounded down).
A barbarian and a fighter will allways deal more damage. Because a fighter has enough feats to lower the ab reduction of power attacks.
A barbarian has rage. (Not to mention again they do not need to focus on so many abilities as a ranger does.)
If you say that clerics, and druids can beat rangers in the ranged league, than comeing up with cats grace, well it seems a bit ....meh...(all 3 use spells to get better ranged ab.)
Not to mention a fighter or a barbarian can reach the same amount with throwing weapons, or fighters with feats nearly the same ranged effectiveness.
(Empowering or maximising cats grace for rangers is not really an options, whereas fighter extra feats.)
The druid or the cleric maximising their ab can easily get a bonus attack just by taking up the rapid shot feat, which if the ranger takes it up further reduces their ab, and
it is allready lower than the other two classes.

So a ranger can have more attacks than most classes, but they get serious hit to their AB for it. And since there are not that many options for them to raise their AB
that -2 will basicly allways stay with them, which is 10% less chance to hit. //A fighter hits with 100% chance the ranger tries twice with 90% chance, and so forth with every attack//
//A dual wielding fighter will likely have more ab, and deal more damage than a ranger, because he has enough free feats to support his focus on this fighting style//

If you do not believe us, than all i can do is suggest you to try and play a ranger.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 02:42:15 PM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2011, 03:07:58 PM »
ALso if char is not an Arcane archer then ranged build is never as effective as melee here. THere are few reasons for it. First and foremost its inability to cast GMW on ranged weapon in NWN, also arrows no matter what stats they have cant pierce through DR if bow cant. Also archers less needed in the parties overall. Caster-buffer, healer, tank, lockpickers and trap detector are almost mandatory while archer is always a luxury.

Of course it is possible to reach lvl 20 with pure ranger here like with any other class, of course if you have pocket wizard with you you can clear whole dungeons, but its true for any other class aswell. What ranger lacks in nwn is a role in the party. A purpose. On paper yes its survivalist, tracker, scout and pathfinder, but most of it isnt in nwn and other classes play the same roles and most of them do it better.  Except maybe scouting, rangers are best sneakers amongst all classes.
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LackofCertainty

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2011, 03:50:34 PM »
What ability does a fighter have access to that is going to give him more ab than a ranger ever?  Nothing.  In nwn, they never get access to any ability (from 1-20) that would give them more ab than a ranger.  They get more feats, but there's only 1 feat in the game (as far as I know) that directly improves ab and that is available to everyone.  Also, rangers don't get quite as many feats as a fighter on this server, but they do get a few free feats for dual wielding.  AND they get double the skill points.   AND they get spells.  AND they get an animal companion.  AND they get bonuses to stealth.  Pure Ranger vs Pure Fighter and I'd take the Ranger any day.

The only place where fighters have a big advantage (imo) is in the realms of multiclassing, because fighters get a lot of feats early, and get one of their biggest draws (weapon spec.) at level 4.

A (dex based) dual wielding or archer ranger will have more ab than a fighter before consumables, because rangers get access to a spell that buffs their dex.  So no.  It's not going to be "Fighter has 100% chance to hit and ranger has 90%" it'd be something like Dual wielding fighter hits on a 12+ and dual wielding ranger hits on a 9-11+ depending on the roll from cat's grace.  You might even have more ac than a dual wielding fighter, because the extra skill points make it easier to take tumble and parry. (it's changed on the server)

If you're comparing to a fighter that's using sword and board or something, then yes, you have less ab, but getting one to two extra attacks a round in your off hand does a lot to bring your dps up.  Are you going to be as tanky as a fighter? Well, no, but a dual wielder is never as tanky as a sword and board, that wouldn't make sense.



A barbarian and a fighter will allways deal more damage. Because a fighter has enough feats to lower the ab reduction of power attacks.

What feat reduces the ab reduction from power attack?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 03:52:14 PM by LackofCertainty »

Springer

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2011, 04:51:53 PM »
Quote
because rangers get access to a spell that buffs their dex
That assuming they wield liught weapons. If they do then they deal less damage with it then fighter wielding two handed weapon (which also has 1,5 str multiplier)
If they dont have light weapons Cat's grace wont do anything to their ab.
Ricard Dateel
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LackofCertainty

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2011, 03:14:30 AM »
Quote
because rangers get access to a spell that buffs their dex
That assuming they wield liught weapons. If they do then they deal less damage with it then fighter wielding two handed weapon (which also has 1,5 str multiplier)
If they dont have light weapons Cat's grace wont do anything to their ab.

Yes, a two handed fighter will do more damage per hit and have slightly more ab, but dual wielders gets extra attacks to compensate for that.  Not to mention that the whole focus of this thread is about how rangers have a spell that makes a melee weapon +3 for a short while.  (that goes a long way to closing the damage gap)

I feel like a ranger choosing not to use dex based weapons would be a little silly.  (about as silly as someone making an arcane archer that uses a greatsword)  They don't get access to bull's str, and they can't dual wield unless they're using light armor.  Not to mention that a dual wielding dex based ranger also gets the choice to switch to being a very very solid archer at any time they choose.    This means that a ranger can quickly switch from being a melee dps (dual wield) a tank (sword and board) or a ranged dps (archer)  Most likely they'll specialize into being better at one than the other, but they still have the option to switch around.

The two handed weapon fighter doesn't get that sort of flexibility. Their only choices are two handed for melee damage, or sword and board for tank.  (and melee heavy parties can be a bit annoying to deal with in dungeons)


Back to the OP again: I think I'd support changing Blood thirst to work on any melee weapon, or at least expand it out to include piercing.  Then again, maybe rangers just need to start coming to their senses and start dual wielding hand-axes and kukris so that their spells work. : P

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2011, 03:51:26 AM »
Actually with how the Parry system works, they will always be better of dual wielding, over sword/boarding