Author Topic: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?  (Read 23763 times)

Sharauvyn

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2011, 09:08:08 AM »
I looooooove my ranger. :) But the thing is, rangers aren't primarily caster characters. I just started a thread complaining about wizards taking over on the melee role of warriors with their spells. I'm not going to turn around and talk about how I think a primarily melee class should be able to compete at magic with a caster. That's about all I have to say about this subject.

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2011, 09:13:14 AM »
Rangers are flankers. And yes this spell is underpowered compared to most but not all other weapon buffing spells.

Telkar

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2011, 09:39:17 AM »
Lol, none of you guys comment on the spell alteration proposal.  :sob:

Id like to see it more powerful but it opens a door best left closed. If rangers start getting better spells their not normally allowed then whose to say that druids shouldnt get PFE for example, or wizards with access to healing spells. Theres a difference between nerfing spells and outright giving spells to classes that shouldnt be allowed.

That door you're describing is much too exaggerated in my opinion. Giving new spells to classes is a whole other thing than modifying existing spells. So far, spells have been modified here but never did that warrant adding spells.

I looooooove my ranger. :) But the thing is, rangers aren't primarily caster characters. I just started a thread complaining about wizards taking over on the melee role of warriors with their spells. I'm not going to turn around and talk about how I think a primarily melee class should be able to compete at magic with a caster. That's about all I have to say about this subject.

How do you explain paladins then? They have Greater Magic Weapon that has much greater potential than the changes I suggested here. Ranger is pretty much to paladins as druids are to clerics. They take away most of the magic and boost up the melee (and Blade Thirst only helps the melee).

Springer

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2011, 09:44:40 AM »
Perhaps extending it to piercing weapons would help? Because rangers mostly use piercing weapons not slashing.
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Winter83

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2011, 11:08:42 AM »
Now that would make rangers deadly archers! :D


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KoopaFanatic

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2011, 11:25:10 AM »
Now that would make rangers deadly archers! :D

I'm sure it would still be melee only.  No reason we should actually go and make archers effective  :roll:

I'd love to see an extended-duration blade thirst that works on piercing weapons, though.  That'd be a dream come true.  Actually being effective with finesse weapons in melee combat without hoping somebody remembered a couple extra GMWs?  [sighs wistfully]

Considering how little rangers have to look forward to at the highest levels, a version of blade thirst that was worth the spell slots would be an excellent reward for sticking it out to the end.  Of course, I may be a little biased... :)

herkles

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2011, 11:27:58 AM »
 I wonders if pathfinder stuff can be imported for rangers, such as favored terrain. Though not sure if it is scriptable or not.

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2011, 01:44:59 PM »
you really dont take into account favoured enemy either....

Mostly useless. +1 AB and damage against things like undead tends to be worthless since most times these enemies have serious damage resistances and reductions you have to bypass before the damage can find a home. Ditto anything worth taking the feat for or against. I suppose if you made vermin a favored enemy youd rule up until you hit level 4 or so.

Best build for a ranger is a finessed based fighter with some rouge levels. Heap the obligatory WM on it on the tail end like everyone else. Sad but true.

Be that as it may I keep playing my ranger because I like the character, and hes fun. I dont kid myself tho that he brings anything useful to a party.

you dont get bonus AB against favoure enemy.

Type of feat: class
Prerequisite: ranger, Harper scout 1

Specifics: The character gains a +1 bonus to any damage delivered to his favored enemy. He also receives a +1 bonus on listen, spot, and taunt checks against the favored enemy.

That is why this is basicly such a nerfed feat here. In 3.5 you do.

And personally i think 3.5 rangers are better than the ones here. They have barkskin too:P
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Indriya

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2011, 02:10:50 PM »
Perhaps Druids should get a GMW like spell, since they are better casters. 8)
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KoopaFanatic

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2011, 02:22:28 PM »
That is why this is basicly such a nerfed feat here. In 3.5 you do.

And personally i think 3.5 rangers are better than the ones here. They have barkskin too:P

They also get bull's strength.  *sigh*  If only...

The D&D 3.0, 3.5, and NWN favored enemy abilities are all slightly different:
3.0:  +1 to bluff, listen, sense motive, spot, and wilderness lore, +1 damage, each favored enemy increments when you gain another, and it doesn't work against crit-immune creatures.  So at level 20 you have FE bonuses of +5/+4/+3/+2/+1 (total +15 for what it's worth).
3.5:  +2 to bluff, listen, sense motive, spot, and survival, +2 damage, +2 to bonus to any single enemy when you gain another, and it still doesn't work against crit-immune creatures.
So at level 20 you have FE bonuses of +2/+2/+2/+2/+2 and +8 more to be distribute among them as you want (+18 total).
NWN:  +1 to listen, spot and taunt, +1 damage, ALL enemies increment together (at the same rate), and the bonus works against all creatures regardless of type.  So at level 20 you have FE bonuses of +5/+5/+5/+5/+5 (total 25).  

I can't find anything that says any version gives a bonus to attack.

All told, I'd say the NWN version is pretty good compared to the others.  By level 20 a dual-wielding ranger gets 6 attacks a round, so that's potentially +30 damage each round.  Provided you can get through DR with that.  

And that's what really frustrates me about blade thirst -- most people paint rangers as the champions of self-sufficiency, and in reality they're one of the most item- and support-caster-dependent classes unless you luck out and find just the right weapons or can stock up on so many potions and varnishes that the rattling of jars should negate every move silently roll you make ;)

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2011, 02:25:49 PM »
Perhaps Druids should get a GMW like spell, since they are better casters. 8)

They get GMFang for their companions (admittedly rangers do too) and if they have stoneskin/greater stoneskin/premonition up when they wild shape, their natural attacks count as +5 for purposes of bypassing DR.  Considering they get bull's strength, blood frenzy and aura of glory, they really don't need GMW to boost their attack bonus.  (Though it would be awesome if they could straight-up cast GMF on themselves...)

Telkar

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2011, 02:42:33 PM »
Perhaps Druids should get a GMW like spell, since they are better casters. 8)

Nooo. That'd be weird. I just looked at the spells in the PnP and seems GMW is 1 hour / lvl, while Blade Thirst is 1 round / lvl.  :doh:

Why they make Blade Thirst lvl 3 is beyond me... anyway, the spell actually lasts 2 rounds / lvl in NWN although it says otherwise. For a lvl 12 ranger that's 2 minutes and 24 seconds, lvl 20 4 minutes...That could last for at least one important battle so it's not entirely useless.

Not sure of my stance now. Don't understand why so similar spells on same spell lvl would differ so in usefulness.

Indriya

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2011, 02:43:33 PM »
Eh well, its kind of weird giving Rangers GMW too, imo.
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Telkar

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2011, 02:46:56 PM »
Eh well, its kind of weird giving Rangers GMW too, imo.

Rangers already got this similar spell we're talking about, not druids, so it's not the same thing.

Indriya

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2011, 02:49:43 PM »
Greater Magic Fang isn't like Greater Magic Weapon..? Why can't Druids cast it on themselves again?
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HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2011, 02:50:48 PM »
because they dont have the weapon equipped, since they cant cast while in animal form

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2011, 02:56:15 PM »
Eh well, its kind of weird giving Rangers GMW too, imo.

Personally I wouldn't be in favor of just adding GMW to their spell list.  Blade thirst is just poorly implemented in the source material given its spell level in comparison to GMW -- bumping it up in duration or applicability would just add some teeth to a class that's already pretty challenged here.  Making it level 1 would at least be a good fit for the duration.  

Now in an ideal world I'd write blade thirst as "just like GMW but it only works against the ranger's favored enemies."  Unfortunately nobody asked me when they were drafting the spell. ;)

And as for druids, it's only an NWN convention that it only applies to the druid's companion.  The standard version's target is "one living creature," which means a druid could cast it on another druid (or maybe even himself before shifting).  I always wondered if it might be possible mechanically to give druids an inventory widget they could cast GMF on which would then "transfer" the effect to them once they've shape-shifted.

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2011, 08:13:48 PM »
That is why this is basicly such a nerfed feat here. In 3.5 you do.

And personally i think 3.5 rangers are better than the ones here. They have barkskin too:P

They also get bull's strength.  *sigh*  If only...

I can't find anything that says any version gives a bonus to attack.


And that's what really frustrates me about blade thirst -- most people paint rangers as the champions of self-sufficiency, and in reality they're one of the most item- and support-caster-dependent classes unless you luck out and find just the right weapons or can stock up on so many potions and varnishes that the rattling of jars should negate every move silently roll you make ;)

not to mention evasion, and reflex+fort as main saves. And if i remember well they even get endurance too.
not to mention those extra feats....so it is much more usefull in 3.5....

bonus to attack is in DDO.

And about the survivalism? yeah...VERY consumable reliant...
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Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2011, 08:21:52 AM »
*digs up an old thread*

A ranger thread has been brought up more times then the wizard vs fighter thread on most servers.

In my history I have played a mixed ranger on 3 different servers (all 40 lv cap), some had minor spell changes (like bull str and barkskin), but so far it is one the least used class ever. I tried different combinations using an epic ranger (21, 25, 26 levels, etc) but so far I did not manage to create a char that would be in any ways useful and I doubt anyone has. I talked to a lot of people that used to play on HnS servers and a ranger class was just not worth it.

Also one thing worth noticing - if this class would be useful, there wouldn't be any problems, and this topic exists on almost EVERY server that I have played, and since it does, there must be something to it. This class has nothing unique to offer that would somehow encourage to play it.

Stealh - a multiclassed druid will do way better since they have the same feats and spells.
Dmg - fighter, weapon master, arcane archer - all of them will do way better
rolls - no comment required

This class even sucks as a support class :P. What kind of support can it give? Spells? Damage? High attack? Skills? Saving rolls? Every other combination will be much more useful then a ranger in any form.

Almost every class has something unique that makes them worth noticing, rangers have nothing. The only thing that they "kinda" have is RP. Tracking is fun but thats it. NWN is based on limited locations so finding anything and anyone comes down to scouting the entire map. In PnP you can get lost, die of hunger or freeze to death. In NWN almost all RP ideas are unaccessable - making a fire, a camp or even a bear trap.. thats all useless here.

A full 3.5 ranger could give some thoughts of usefullness and a full I mean full:

-Spell list includes bull str and barkskin
-6 skills
-reflex a base saving throw
-additional feats (toughness, evasion, hide in plain sight (natural terain), camuflage (no speed penalty when hiding))
etc.

With this a ranger might be more combat useful (lets state a fact, if a class is weak, noone will use it, no matter the RP).

One thing of thought on the "Blade thirst". On one server they changed it to work as a vampiric weapon +1 for every 5 lv and worked.. turn per level or something like that. On an other server it gave a + to enhancment against the rangers favored enemies equal to the rangers FE bonus (1 + 1/5 lv). Perhaps worth concidering?

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2011, 08:44:37 AM »
It's a pretty well rounded fighter-stealth-druid-hybrid class, of course it won't go beyond the druid as a caster. It does however get very good bonuses to stealth and has stealth skills as a class skill. The only class with high attack bonus that gets this. It also gets a very good hp and the only place I'd say it's really lacking is the feat department.

I don't think the ranger class is trash and if you insist it is I can only say that you haven't tried ranger enough on Ravenloft.

HOWEVER I do think blade thirst could use a boost in either duration or effect.

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2011, 08:55:10 AM »
I think my views on this are pretty well known, since I weigh in on every ranger-related thread here with pretty much the same comments: I would <3 to see some mechanical improvements to rangers that brought them more in line with the 3.5 version of the class, mostly because it sucks feeling like the dead weight in a party except in very specific situations.  That said, this comment...

With this a ranger might be more combat useful (lets state a fact, if a class is weak, noone will use it, no matter the RP).

...is pretty far off from the reality of things.  I've played here for years, and in the time before classes and levels were blocked from view I'm fairly certain I saw more single-classed rangers than I ever did rogues or fighters.  They offer a lot of fun and really make sense for a lot of character concepts, it would just be nice if the mechanics of the class backed up the RP potential instead of actively worked against it.

Winter83

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2011, 09:20:08 AM »
Been playing a ranger for month now, and he's pure class, no multiclass, don't think I'll ever do. So far he's been useful in roleplay, and in party too. Heck he lacks the AC but compensates in damage + stealth. Ranger is like a commando, spec-ops. I was in a dungeon alone could take out a boss without much loss of blood, whilst a similar level fighter with high AC bled to death, knocked down, burnt, beaten up etc. What makes the difference? --> Traps. Stealth. Spells. Combat skills of a fighter. All you need is some tactical sense.

We are discussing a spell here that comes so late in levels, that players by then abandon their ranger or multiclass into something else. I still wish ranger class get some love, but can imagine it in some other kind of mechanical boon, like extra resources, or bonus to certain crafts etc, etc.

And about survival.... yeah, the main strength of a ranger is gone. Survival and tracking. Was in a DM plot with other class chars that required tracking and my ranger was the worst tracker in team. Why? Because other classes get spot / listen /search as well, which are the base of tracking. IMHO between spot and spot there's a big difference. Even if a ranger rolls a lower spot he still has some knowledge about where to find signs of the prey he knows where to look for. Another similar thing comes when one need to determine certain things about a prey, like movement speed, species, etc. According to handbooks the 'wilderness lore' is like that. Now if you have a bard in your party he'll be better roll-wise to distinguish a badger from a jackal than a ranger who might have around a lore of 6 but he has it in -wilderness lore- Not religions, arts, history, etc, etc.

There has been a topic on wilderness features as well, and many other threads about ranger. It's an exciting discussion but I don't know if the developers see it as a problem, or have any intentions to do anything to the class.


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Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2011, 09:33:11 AM »
Quote
I don't think the ranger class is trash and if you insist it is I can only say that you haven't tried ranger enough on Ravenloft.

If I'd get a copper every time I heard it I would be a second Bill Gates. No offence, but I heard it all before "Here is different, play and you will see". Well I did so, couple of times, every time the same conclusion - they are fun and entertaining to play, but still, to weak (not trash) to be feared or atleast respected and I have witnessed it myself many times. It didn't matter if I was a city guard, or even on the kings scouting team - there was no respect. My favorite quote on this would be "They will either fear you, or laugh at you", and a ranger is not the one to be feared. It is sad, very sad even but still true.

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2011, 10:59:16 AM »
another thing is, they do not lose their twf feats if they equip medium armor in 3.5, just the evasion. On most places where you can achieve a mithral or darkleaf armor (both are considered as light armor, so light armor chain shirts:P or chainmails:)\m/) this would not be a problem. But here this makes them a great hindrance as well, they have to retake all those feats, if they would go for chain shirts or chainmails. So they are weak on the feat side, and if they want to have a bit of decent AC and decent to hit, aka balance, than they have to waste 2-3 feats...(and they allready have not enough feats.)
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Emomina

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2011, 11:23:47 PM »
The additional spells added from 3.5 would only be patchwork. Rangers in 3.0 sucked so hard they got the most revision and they ended up a different type of class altogether.  They are the most skillful martial class, its their niche.  Rangers may never get the bonus combat feats but as they are now they are just a terrible meleer in need of fighter levels or a good sneak needing rogue or assassin levels to do something with it. They are not even as good of archers as fighters who go that route or rogues that go that route.  These three changes would give them a place on PotM and emphasize their differences from a fighter or rogue, and bulls strength and barkskin to the spell list would be awesome too.  Rangers are the single underpowered class on PotM, that does not mean you can not play one and survive, but they are not as good as any other class.

d8 hit die instead d10
6 skill points/ level instead of 4/level
Good reflex saving throw progression and gain evasion as class skill at level 9