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Author Topic: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?  (Read 24502 times)

Springer

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2011, 04:35:50 AM »
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...Not to mention that the whole focus of this thread is about how rangers have a spell that makes a melee weapon +3 for a short while.  (that goes a long way to closing the damage gap)...  Then again, maybe rangers just need to start coming to their senses and start dual wielding hand-axes and kukris so that their spells work. : P
This spell works only on slashing weapons. And there is a lack of handaxes and especially kukris on the server with +1 atribute (while there are tons of shortswords). And that spell itself lasts for too short to compensate for it (actually that was the whole point of the thread to tweak that spell).
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2011, 09:18:34 AM »
Yup.  Blade Thirst, for its level, is a pretty poor short term buff.   Duration is too short for more than a single fight or two, and while it can be a big help, it doesn't have the staying power of most equivalent level spells.  And the restriction to slashing only weapons is kind of limiting, and irritating.

On that brief topic about best archer, a pure ranger dedicated solely to archery would in base AB and number of attacks beat out a lot of other builds.  But it could not compare in damage potential to a paladin or cleric using divine favor + divine might.  Their damage output is much heavier, and also the divine and magical damage punches through DR.  On a server where DR matters as much as PotM, thats significant.

Still, topic wise, Blade Thirst is a woeful spell.  By the time a ranger gets high enough to use it, you'd expect something with more kick.  Like paladins, who at later levels wind up getting GMW and Holy Sword.

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2011, 10:56:35 AM »
Rangers are the best stealthers except for SDers. They have one of the best abilities to increase damage vs specific enemies. But the thing is they are a support hybrid class, and they are good at it. You can't compare them to other classes and expect them to shine

Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2011, 11:22:35 AM »
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Rangers are the best stealthers except for SDers. They have one of the best abilities to increase damage vs specific enemies. But the thing is they are a support hybrid class, and they are good at it. You can't compare them to other classes and expect them to shine

I'm sorry, but why not? There is nothing that ranger can shine on and be something.. well.. useful.

Range attack? AA better
Melee? Almost everything better.
Stealh? I can make a better druid with stealh.
Spells? Nah..

So what is the point of them if they can't be good at anything?

Dmg vs enemies? Its a joke without the epic feat bane of enemies. Up till 20 lv its +5 i believe - still a joke.\

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2011, 12:33:22 PM »
Rangers are the best stealthers except for SDers. They have one of the best abilities to increase damage vs specific enemies.

Their stealth is decent, boosted by spells.  Can't argue that.  But they lack the combat ability to make any solid use of their stealth, as a single class ranger.  As a RP device, eluding or spying, its great.  As a combat ability, pure rangers can at best use it to get in good in a flanking position, flee if they know the tricks, or scout.  Thats about it.

They have one of the best abilities to increase damage vs specific enemies.

Favored enemy is of moderate use at best.  As a support role, rogues sneak attack surpass it in many ways, given that its damage scales up far better with leveling, and it is versus all enemies with a discernable anatomy.  Favored enemies biggest benefit is it is a constant boost and has skill benefits vs the chosen race; but given its very specific nature, it just isn't that universally useful.  Pointless having favored enemy : goblinoid at a +3 when every dungeon at your level range has none.  Best thing you can do with Favored Enemy on PotM is take Favored Enemy : Undead, since they're so prevalent in the setting.

But the thing is they are a support hybrid class, and they are good at it. You can't compare them to other classes and expect them to shine.

If they are a support hybrid class, then they are the worst one in the game.  Any spellcaster will be of greater benefit to a group through buffs and even melee at higher levels, any melee class will be better as a frontliner and comparable as ranged support when needed.  A rogue is superior as a flanker against any foes with a discernable anatomy, and has the benefit of specialty skills like open locks and disarm traps.  A druid is better at providing animal companion / summons support, as well as mild buffs / debuffs, attack spells and healing.  Bards are superior as support due to universal short term benefits of bard song for a party, and their spell options.  Overall almost any other class outshines them almost across the board, in most support roles.

Best thing they've got going is a tendency toward high AB / low damage archery, high number of attacks from dual-wield (which is available to them in light armor only), and the unique class skillset they've got.  I'm not saying they are a bad class, there are a number of abilities in PnP that help make them shine more, like tracking and wilderness lore.  But NWN doesn't have those mechanics, so... they're left pretty lackluster.

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2011, 01:42:04 PM »
the 3.0 version of Rangers, that NWN uses, is a truly terrible incarnation of the ranger.

But yes, its support damage is lower than a rogue over all, but this is balanced by a higher AB and more HPs
But the thing with the ranger, is it was never supposed to be a class that could do anything GREAT, but alot of things well.

Favoured enemy stacks with most things. So it should never be unervalued, but it often is. +5 doesn't sound like much, but thats +5 to both hands, on a full base attack class, that when wearing light armour gets free two weapon fighting feats, thats a potential of 5*6=60 damage a round before crits

Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2011, 02:42:57 PM »
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the 3.0 version of Rangers, that NWN uses, is a truly terrible incarnation of the ranger.

Agree. In 3.5 (as in nwn2) a ranger is starting to finally look like it should.

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But yes, its support damage is lower than a rogue over all, but this is balanced by a higher AB and more HPs

Its support damage is ridiculous. The only boost it posses is for Favored enemy, which as stated - is a joke in comparison with everything else.

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But the thing with the ranger, is it was never supposed to be a class that could do anything GREAT, but alot of things well.

If something is for everything then it is in reality of no use. In this kind of a game you have to specialize - tank, dps, cc, spells, etc (in any way it is in nwn done). Which exactly does this class go in to? Being everything is equal to being nothing.

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Favoured enemy stacks with most things. So it should never be unervalued, but it often is. +5 doesn't sound like much, but thats +5 to both hands, on a full base attack class, that when wearing light armour gets free two weapon fighting feats, thats a potential of 5*6=60 damage a round before crits

As a fighter I take weapon specialization, i get +4.. vs EVERYTHING and I only need 4 lvs of a fighter. So whats the point? 5*6 is 30 :P. If for e.g. you have 4 attacks (one hand), you can count on max 2 first to hit a target on high levels. The 3rd and 4th attack usually hit on natural 20, and thats it. For the second hand - perhaps, but still very little in comparison to boosting spells and other classes.

-----------------------------

Don't give me wrong, I love this class. Is the best thing for RP besides the rogue. But its mechanics suck so bad that its just not worth it. I played it on 2 servers, hoping to find some potential.. haven't found any. After that I started using wizards, bards, pale masters, etc. Got WAY better results. If you want to make a ranger a playable class, change it to dnd 3.5.

As for the on topic spell - it was always worthless on all servers that I played. It sucks in comparison to GMW or any other spells (in both duration and effects). If you want it to be useful, make it unique, for instance add vampiric regeneration to the flow (a +1 on 4 lv, +2 on 8 lv, etc). Make it equal in some way to GMW. And add both slashing and piercing type. As for duration - same as GWM.

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2011, 04:28:50 PM »
god my math skills are slipping... anyway.. its potential 60 [I know how unlikely it is]

but the point I was trying to make,, having a free medium strength varnish [it lasts around the same time, possibly abit shorter]sn't bad.

I feel more that Paladins are overpowered for a hybrid class, rather than rangers being underpowered.

Telkar

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2011, 04:49:02 PM »
If you want it to be useful, make it unique, for instance add vampiric regeneration to the flow (a +1 on 4 lv, +2 on 8 lv, etc). Make it equal in some way to GMW. And add both slashing and piercing type. As for duration - same as GWM.

I like that idea, customizing the spell in a way that fits its level. Maybe make it last as long as GMW, be +2 and give vampiric regeneration. Now that's a Blade Thirst. =)

Ercvadasz

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2011, 11:06:26 PM »
Whoever asked me about the feat i confused it with a skill that fighters do not get, but most of them on this server take up. Antagonize/Taunt.
That can reduce enemies ab by 6, makeing it effectively a +6 skill. (2 ring of the mouths +10 to skill allready -4 wisdom for fighter in a fight not that much of a loss,
whereas for ranger....) It can easily reach a good damn decent amount too, because there are soo many items that give antagonize bonus.
//Sorry did not really had much time to react, will once i get more time and sleep//
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HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2011, 02:23:57 AM »
its AC isnt it?

aprogressivist

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2011, 03:07:16 AM »
I feel more that Paladins are overpowered for a hybrid class, rather than rangers being underpowered.

Oh, you did not go there. :P
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LackofCertainty

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2011, 05:26:46 AM »
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...Not to mention that the whole focus of this thread is about how rangers have a spell that makes a melee weapon +3 for a short while.  (that goes a long way to closing the damage gap)...  Then again, maybe rangers just need to start coming to their senses and start dual wielding hand-axes and kukris so that their spells work. : P
This spell works only on slashing weapons. And there is a lack of handaxes and especially kukris on the server with +1 atribute (while there are tons of shortswords). And that spell itself lasts for too short to compensate for it (actually that was the whole point of the thread to tweak that spell).

You snipped out the bit of my message that said exactly what you're saying in this post.  Please don't "Creatively" quote to make people appear to say things they aren't. (really frickin annoying)

Original quote:
Back to the OP again: I think I'd support changing Blood thirst to work on any melee weapon, or at least expand it out to include piercing.  Then again, maybe rangers just need to start coming to their senses and start dual wielding hand-axes and kukris so that their spells work. : P



Paladins are silly for multiclassing (19 sorc 1 pally, etc)   but that doesn't really matter, because paladins have severe multi-class restrictions on this server.

Bato

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2011, 08:26:14 AM »
I had a Ranger named Boris once. Was all excited for blade thirst but alas,


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Threefold

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2011, 09:57:43 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...

They can also be used to memorise spells that will be cast far before battle, such as Bulls Strength or Aura of Glory, then removed, rather than kept on when you're going to be wading into fights.

Two cents on the subject: Make it hour/level and give +1/4 and Keen. That's a massive buff, but damned if Rangers don't need it.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 09:59:42 AM by Threefold »

aprogressivist

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2011, 10:00:48 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...

They can also be used to memorise spells that will be cast far before battle, such as Bulls Strength or Aura of Glory, then removed, rather than kept on when you're going to be wading into fights.

Two cents on the subject: Make it hour/level and give +1/4 and Keen. That's a massive buff, but damned if Rangers don't need it.

The same is true of the Calban bracers, however.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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Jay

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2011, 10:22:18 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...

They can also be used to memorise spells that will be cast far before battle, such as Bulls Strength or Aura of Glory, then removed, rather than kept on when you're going to be wading into fights.

Two cents on the subject: Make it hour/level and give +1/4 and Keen. That's a massive buff, but damned if Rangers don't need it.

The same is true of the Calban bracers, however.

Paladins can cast Protection from Evil, effectively making any will penalties a moot point.

aprogressivist

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2011, 10:47:05 AM »
Paladins can cast Protection from Evil, effectively making any will penalties a moot point.

Against most spawns, true (though Trillochs' Will Save vs Death doesn't seem to be tagged mind-affecting from what I've seen). But it can be a big factor in PvP against Neutral PCs -- who can attack a paladin before he's buffed and thus before he's swapped out bracers. It does create a weakness that can be exploited.
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Jay

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2011, 11:01:59 AM »
Paladins can cast Protection from Evil, effectively making any will penalties a moot point.

Against most spawns, true (though Trillochs' Will Save vs Death doesn't seem to be tagged mind-affecting from what I've seen). But it can be a big factor in PvP against Neutral PCs -- who can attack a paladin before he's buffed and thus before he's swapped out bracers. It does create a weakness that can be exploited.

Trillochs are Neutral that's why
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=24591.0

But rather then de-rail the thread further, i'll just say in my opinion, compared to a undiluted Fighter/Barb(And to an extent a Ranger) Class, Paladins have it easy.

Springer

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2011, 11:14:07 AM »
In PvP if you are attacked unprepared by prepared opponent you ll lose no matter the bracers you wear.
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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2011, 11:35:48 AM »
The Paladin bracers give -3 will...

They can also be used to memorise spells that will be cast far before battle, such as Bulls Strength or Aura of Glory, then removed, rather than kept on when you're going to be wading into fights.

Two cents on the subject: Make it hour/level and give +1/4 and Keen. That's a massive buff, but damned if Rangers don't need it.

I'd never suggest that it be made an hour/level, thats extremely long in comparison to GMW, which is only 1 turn + turn/level,

I'd keep it at its currently 2rounds/level. The spell wasn't ment to 'replace' what GMW can offer, but allow the ranger to temporarily do what they can when they aren't present.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 11:45:02 AM by Rhymenoceros »
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aprogressivist

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2011, 12:07:21 PM »
But rather then de-rail the thread further, i'll just say in my opinion, compared to a undiluted Fighter/Barb(And to an extent a Ranger) Class, Paladins have it easy.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but this goes back to the original comment upthread about how Paladin are an "overpowered" hybrid class when compared to Rangers. If one is going to make such comparisons, it invites questions like why we're using Paladins as a base metric of balance, instead of, say, the Cleric -- especially given that Clerics or even Fighter/Clerics have a great deal more flexibility than the ultra-specialised Paladins do...

In other words, if people are going to open up the whole can of worms that is a balance discussion (and note that I'm not the one who did so), then I don't think it's fair to just compare Rangers to Paladins.
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Kagetora

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2011, 05:55:48 PM »
Just feel I have to throw in my $0.02 here.

Having played games like this a long time, I am here to tell you there is NO such thing as "balance" bewteen the choices you have available to you.  Its like trying to claim that there is balance between army choices in a game like WFB or WH40K.  It simply doesn't exist.

And, more to the point...it never will.

Balance only exists when everyone has the exact same options.  For example, if you started a game where everyone pulled from the exact same list of abilities, points, etc. to create their characters, you might claim to have some form of "balance."  Even then, those who make "better" choices will have an advantage over those who take less useful skills or abilities.  AD&D does not even have THIS level of "balance," unlike, say GURPS or something similar.  The very nature of the class system, and the unbelieveable amount of combinations of basic abilities, stats, spells, feats, skills, special abilties, etc. makes it literally impossible to "balance" anything.  Even attempting to usually causesmoreproblems than it is worth.  Again, I fall back on the examples of WFB and 40K, where each new army book or codex is bumped up a little in power, to make it attractive to new players (who then spend their money).  The never-ending arms race begins.

AD&D is no different.  Due to the nature of the server itself (crappy magic items, lots of undead), those who can bring their own magic to the table are the most powerful characters on the server, i.e. Clerics and Wizards.  Those who are reliant upon items, or aren't good against the undead (Rogues, Rangers, Druids, for example) are automatically at a disadvantage.  In order to "remedy" this and achieve some sort of "balance," its now possible for a fighter or ranger (or anyone else) to run around with literally hundreds of potions, varnishes, items, etc.  I know one character who claims to have over 700 potions on them.  I have a character who have over 300.

Thats CRAZY.  But, thats what you get for attempts to provide "balance."

I've played a ranger in every game where the class exists.  Including Everquest, from a month after it went live.  Rangers are NEVER as good as the other fighter classes.  NEVER.  Its just one of those sad facts of life.  A fighter, with bonus feats, can easily get the same fighting abilities as a Ranger, and do it while wearing full plate, and being specialized in his weapons.  Boom.  Ranger loses.  Especially when you consider that the fighter can ALSO be versatile in the ability to go Two-Handed or with a Shield as well, at which they will be better agian than the ranger due to the armor and total AC.  Especially at low levels.  And the Paladin, while not as versatile, has vastly better special abilities and spells.  Thats life, because thats the game.

Rangers are a class designed for PNP, where your DM caters to you and the party.  Not for a no-holds-barred cutthroat online game where someone creates a world, pushes start, and lets it run.  That said, there is nothing actually WRONG with playing a ranger.  Not everything has to be balanced.  Somethings should be a challenge.  People I know with rangers derive a deal of personal satisfaction for HAVING the cards sort of stacked against them.  Not everyone has to be equal.

I mean, geez.  If you want complaints, how about the fact that my druid can't even enchant her own weapon to fight the undead?  Or modify any stat except her STR?  Or cast any spell that imrpoves her AB or AC except Barkskin and Bull's?  Seriously.  I just consider it more of a challenge.  If I don't want to be challenged that day, I log in my Cleric or Wizard.   :lol:

Stop complaining and BE PROUD that you are playing a class that is a bit harder, and doesn't have everything handed to them on a platter.  Isn't that the point of the ranger anyway?   ;)

Uranos

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2011, 02:37:20 AM »
In other words - don't be suprised if you will see only casters and sneakers, because that is what it leads to if the generaly weak classes have nothing to offer. It is no fun then.

HellsPanda

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Re: Ranger's Blade Thirst spell - seriously underpowered?
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2011, 02:44:52 AM »
The non casters, with good caster support will be more effective in the long run than the caster without the non casters