Author Topic: Wilderness features  (Read 4377 times)

Winter83

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Wilderness features
« on: July 25, 2011, 03:46:48 AM »
A bunch of ideas how to make wilderness more lively.


- Heavy armor slows down the wearer on rough terrain (minor penalty like -5% or higher exhaustion rate)
- Tracking system: for ranger or an extra feat perhaps. Tells the user what danger to expect. Perhaps whom passed the area recently.
- Stepping into the water (especially on winters) raises the damage done by the colt, until player don't build a campfire.
- Stepping into some waters might trigger a small chance to catch a disease.
- Ability to make campfires inside caverns.
- Finding herbs would need some skill in lore or a ranger / druid class. Perhaps spot/search skill. (To counter the low skill points of certain classes there can be an item added that helps finding and identifying herbs) Currently everyone's harvesting everything without knowledge what might that be.
- Animals perhaps more skittish? Or using hide / ms ? Or deer would receive some bonuses to speed? Currently it's very easy to hunt them, might give some flavor to hunters if animals receive some bonuses. Even the use of traps for hunters to catch animals. [shrugs]
- Forested areas might have a small chance to shift maps on transitions so travelers can get lost without guide or skills in search.
- Similarly to harvest herbs, skinning larger animals triggering a crouching animation.
- Small chance of catching disease when resting in cold or without building a camp. Would encourage players to make camps, thus parties are more trackable.


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Winter83

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 03:48:52 AM »
One more: Lone travelers have a small chance to trigger lurking wolves. Also give wolves hide/ ms to get a more predatory feeling and to make traveling in wilderness more dangerous.


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EberronBruce

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 06:29:22 AM »
I don't like the idea of changing maps. It would probably be a nightmare for DMs and Developers. Also for example my character lives in Degannwy. He would know those woods extremely well.

However I like the idea of heavy armor impeding movement or should raise the exhaustion system quicker. Sorry but wearing 45lbs of steel will get you tired quickly than wearing a chain shirt. I would like to see chain shirts as light armor as well, however I think they are hardcoded in as medium armor.

Hypothermia system is what you asking for. Just cuz you are wet in the cold doesn't make you acceptable to disease. In fact the use ice and cold temperature to treat trauma victims, if Im correct. Not pronounce dead until dead and warm.

Hypothermia should use a mixture of exhaustion and cold damage.

I would love an idea of a tracking for rangers. However, how would you implement it in code. It seems to be quite tricky. Have to keep track of every character's and creatures movements. I see big lag and stability issues doing that. However, during DM events a mixture of search, spots, and listen checks should be used for tracking. A ranger should be able to track.

I like the idea of using traps to hunt animals. It is and was very common to do. It would make setting traps more useful. But again, how would the system work. It could also add problems of lag and stability.

I don't like the idea of walking in water and catching a disease. First thing in a realistic, I used to drink water out of creeks and streams when I was a child. These streams aren't your city polluted streams. Yes there is always germs but most people are hardy enough to fight off those germs. Unless your con is like a 4 then there should be a problem.

I like the idea of giving rangers and druids better ability in hunting herbs. Maybe they get more herbs per a plant. But would that throw off the balance. Will the server get flooded with rangers and druids so they can make more potions?

The animal AI is the best I have seen on any server so far. Even though there could be some improvements. Trust the developers, they know what they are doing.

I like the idea of making wolves slightly more predatory. They are easy to spot. But some wolves do hide and just pop up next to you. Thats kind of strange for a dog as big as a horse. It should be size based as well.

And anyone who has ever hunted deer know that you don't just shoot a deer with a bow and it drops. You shoot it. It runs away. Then you wait to it beds down and bleeds out. Then you track it. Again though, how would you implement that into the system. Deer should run faster than a human. Ever hunted one you would know.

More options with campfires and positions would be nice like gaining more hitpoints when you rest by a campfire in wilderness areas or different cooking options.

Dhark

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 01:14:07 PM »
[sarcasum] Yes more realisum, why not force players to hit a button every 3 seconds to ensure they breathe ? [/sarcasum]

I think the focus of the game should be fear madness & horror , not how well you can survive in the open.

Hypothermia should use a mixture of exhaustion and cold damage.

Hypothermia is purely temprature related , over taxing the body & lack of nutrition may be factors only if combined.

Stage 1) You shiver & feel sick
Stage 2) While you might begin to feel a little warmer (due to shivering) , the shivering will become more pronounced, fatige & sluggesh movements
Stage 3) Shivering stops & you become irrational , often with "tunnel vision" of the mind , which may give you the incetive to carry on, blindly, ignoring the cold.
Stage 4) Your dead

Given the symptoms of being cold , then warming up & followed by the urge to carry on regardless , Hypothermia is a real danger ,unless you know these signs & how to spot them in others .
 Ive actually reached stage 3, from stage 1 in less than 15 mins out climbing, if my partner hadent known the signs I would not be typing this

Oh & I think Ive covered why you dont light fires in caves  in a previous post.

Edit: There is in fact a sytem in place to recognise resting near tents , which lessens the effect weather has on hit point recovery , also we all know the benefits of campfires, bedrolls & food on resting.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 01:18:25 PM by Tarinyar »

ethinos

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 01:24:54 PM »
A bunch of ideas how to make wilderness more lively.


- Heavy armor slows down the wearer on rough terrain (minor penalty like -5% or higher exhaustion rate)

Folks hate hardcore style rules, though I love them. PnP has all sorts of rules regarding armor, encumbrance, and PC movement rates.

Quote
- Tracking system: for ranger or an extra feat perhaps. Tells the user what danger to expect. Perhaps whom passed the area recently.

I know we had a system outside of caves that hinted what was within. Though maybe my Search is too sucky for it to activate anymore.

Quote
- Stepping into the water (especially on winters) raises the damage done by the colt, until player don't build a campfire.
- Stepping into some waters might trigger a small chance to catch a disease.

Not sure how laggy it would be if the server would have to run a check to see if you enter water. Might not be worth the hassle.

Quote
- Ability to make campfires inside caverns.

Would be nice, yes.

Quote
- Finding herbs would need some skill in lore or a ranger / druid class. Perhaps spot/search skill. (To counter the low skill points of certain classes there can be an item added that helps finding and identifying herbs) Currently everyone's harvesting everything without knowledge what might that be.

I can see them maybe getting a bonus to finding herbs, but I don't think only they would know what the herbs were or what they'd do. However, none of the other crafts get bonuses from a class, so it wouldn't be a very balanced.
Quote
- Animals perhaps more skittish? Or using hide / ms ? Or deer would receive some bonuses to speed? Currently it's very easy to hunt them, might give some flavor to hunters if animals receive some bonuses. Even the use of traps for hunters to catch animals. [shrugs]

Deer should definitely be faster, yes.

Quote
- Forested areas might have a small chance to shift maps on transitions so travelers can get lost without guide or skills in search.

Probably more hassle than it's worth, even if it was possible.

Quote
- Similarly to harvest herbs, skinning larger animals triggering a crouching animation.

Skinning right now is actually just removing an item from inventory, so I don't think it could be scripted. However, nothing stops you from crouching voluntarily when you skin an animal.

Quote
- Small chance of catching disease when resting in cold or without building a camp. Would encourage players to make camps, thus parties are more trackable.

I think cold damage is probably enough of a motivator already for seeking shelter or setting up a fire/tent.
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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 09:32:29 PM »
Honestly I wish fire damage would be taken away from Har-Akir. Cold damage in the winter time is actually stuff that happens but their water requirement and dehydration script as well as decrease in exhaust threshold is -perfect- to simulate a desert. The temperatures in that Desert actually are quite liveable and sometimes it gets down to like 60-70 degrees Fahrenheit and for some reason you need to guzzle water. lol.

This would also apply to future wastes/desert domains. Also, what about Perfidus? Do you need to drink there? It's all.. deserty firey.

LivingWasteland

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2011, 05:24:37 AM »
Am going to dispute the 'tired faster in heavy armor' option. I wear an authentic suit often enough to know that you can do anything in you you can out of it without noticing much of a difference one your use to it. Swim, pushups, jumping jacks...anyone with some experience in it adapts fast.

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2011, 05:50:24 AM »
interesting experiment using replica armor and running on treadmills


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EberronBruce

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 06:05:22 AM »
Very interesting.

The one thing we can take is that armor was design for one purpose. That is protect the wearer from physical harm from arrows and blows from weapons. It was design for combat use and most plate from my knowledge was designed to fit its users. I try to RP this point out and made a couple of characters follow me to the forge when I craft their plate.

Its why you can see in old fencing manuscripts half holding the blade. This is to stiffen the blade by making in shorter so it can be use to puncture a knight's armor.

It offers good protection and decent mobility but you cant run a marathon in it.

herkles

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2011, 08:17:42 AM »
Here is a video on armor that might be helpful
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLJwUKM3t_dDI[/youtube]



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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2011, 08:23:46 AM »
Wild animals using stealth makes sense
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Elfric

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2011, 08:52:23 AM »
- Similarly to harvest herbs, skinning larger animals triggering a crouching animation.

I recall Nordock had a ton of scripts in play, and one of them was their harvest/crafting system. Any time you wished to aquire hides you had to use a skinnning knife on the corpse. All the weapon tools were required for their respected resources. Woodcutter's axe for trees, miner's pick for mines, ect... ect..

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EberronBruce

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2011, 09:21:44 AM »
I actually saw that display once at that museum. It was quite cool.

As a side note, I love movies like this. Gives us more of what it was really like for the people back then.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 09:39:10 AM by EberronBruce »

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 11:31:20 AM »
Quote
Finding herbs would need some skill in lore or a ranger / druid class. Perhaps spot/search skill. (To counter the low skill points of certain classes there can be an item added that helps finding and identifying herbs) Currently everyone's harvesting everything without knowledge what might that be.
Maybe give druids a bonus percent chance to get two herbs instead of one when gathering, or something like that.

Quote
Tracking system: for ranger or an extra feat perhaps. Tells the user what danger to expect. Perhaps whom passed the area recently.

I've seen a tracking system that worked off of a ranger or druids detection skills. (And Lore/Animal Empathy depending on what they were tracking.) The system was scripted in a sense that it worked like a mediocre radar, it was used as a text command, (.tracking) and could only be used every so often. Depending on the Rangers Level and their skills vs the creatures skills, It would yield different results.. For example using the different levels and skills..

A ranger tracks while standing just outside the temple, there is a the garda at the wall, A deer way in the southwest corner, a mink near the cabin, and a level 10 halfling rogue at the gallows.

If the ranger were say, level with max ranks in detection skills, he likely get the following..

Distance/Creature/Armor/Direction
Fresh Tracks of Medium Human, wearing heavy armor, heading East.
Weathered Tracks of Medium Animal, heading south-southwest.
Weathered Tracks of Small Animal, heading north-northwest.


A higher level would be able to pick up more detailed information.. and be able to track stealthy-characters.

Fresh Tracks of "Vallaki Garda", wearing heavy armor, Heading East.
Weathered Tracks of "Deer", heading south-southwest

Etc etc.

Elfric

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 11:36:21 AM »
That would be great, although it would have to account for the prey's class. Both druid, and rangers have "trackless steps". Which in a wilderness enviorment, means they cannot be tracked via trails.

"You left the campfire back in the field. The entire grass field is on fire. Smokey the Bear is on the edge of the field, on his knees, sobbing into his hands."

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2011, 11:38:07 AM »
That would be great, although it would have to account for the prey's class. Both druid, and rangers have "trackless steps". Which in a wilderness enviorment, means they cannot be tracked via trails.

Yes. That was included in this system. I beleive it had a few things it checked for. There was a variable tied to certain creatures as well, that wouldn't leave traces, the "Trackless Step" feat, etc etc. A good variable that I can see on current creatures/players, such as an MPC's mist form.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:40:06 AM by Rhymenoceros »

Elfric

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 11:49:58 AM »
Now the one skill that needs true improvement is animal empathy. I recall NWN "story" campaigns had a fun thing with that, leading to conversations and quests. All with animals! You could solve puzzels, and track things with their help. It's a bit Doctor Dolittle, i admit but hey. It made the skill far more useful and could help with wilderness features.

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2011, 01:18:17 PM »
Honestly I wish fire damage would be taken away from Har-Akir. Cold damage in the winter time is actually stuff that happens but their water requirement and dehydration script as well as decrease in exhaust threshold is -perfect- to simulate a desert. The temperatures in that Desert actually are quite liveable and sometimes it gets down to like 60-70 degrees Fahrenheit and for some reason you need to guzzle water. lol.

This would also apply to future wastes/desert domains. Also, what about Perfidus? Do you need to drink there? It's all.. deserty firey.
The reason for the low temperatures is because the non-Core domains don't have their own weather system yet. Once they do, the temperatures be more appropriate.

As for fire damage, it's unfortunately the closest NWN can come to heat damage. Since there's no way to add new damage types we had to make do with what NWN has.

Perfidus doesn't have dehydration because it's not hot and the exterior is basically just one area.

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Winter83

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2011, 04:48:42 PM »
Quote
Finding herbs would need some skill in lore or a ranger / druid class. Perhaps spot/search skill. (To counter the low skill points of certain classes there can be an item added that helps finding and identifying herbs) Currently everyone's harvesting everything without knowledge what might that be.
Maybe give druids a bonus percent chance to get two herbs instead of one when gathering, or something like that.

Quote
Tracking system: for ranger or an extra feat perhaps. Tells the user what danger to expect. Perhaps whom passed the area recently.

I've seen a tracking system that worked off of a ranger or druids detection skills. (And Lore/Animal Empathy depending on what they were tracking.) The system was scripted in a sense that it worked like a mediocre radar, it was used as a text command, (.tracking) and could only be used every so often. Depending on the Rangers Level and their skills vs the creatures skills, It would yield different results.. For example using the different levels and skills..

A ranger tracks while standing just outside the temple, there is a the garda at the wall, A deer way in the southwest corner, a mink near the cabin, and a level 10 halfling rogue at the gallows.

If the ranger were say, level with max ranks in detection skills, he likely get the following..

Distance/Creature/Armor/Direction
Fresh Tracks of Medium Human, wearing heavy armor, heading East.
Weathered Tracks of Medium Animal, heading south-southwest.
Weathered Tracks of Small Animal, heading north-northwest.


A higher level would be able to pick up more detailed information.. and be able to track stealthy-characters.

Fresh Tracks of "Vallaki Garda", wearing heavy armor, Heading East.
Weathered Tracks of "Deer", heading south-southwest

Etc etc.



Ah, that'd be awfully cool, not sure if such can be implemented though. I know a server where a tracing feature is scripted, you can check footsteps on transitions and gather some basic info like weight ,ace and if entering or leaving the map. (Like: Heavy armored human entering)
Quite useful if you'd like to follow or find a PC or group you'd been stalking but lost sight of them.


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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2011, 12:11:53 AM »
Honestly I wish fire damage would be taken away from Har-Akir. Cold damage in the winter time is actually stuff that happens but their water requirement and dehydration script as well as decrease in exhaust threshold is -perfect- to simulate a desert. The temperatures in that Desert actually are quite liveable and sometimes it gets down to like 60-70 degrees Fahrenheit and for some reason you need to guzzle water. lol.

This would also apply to future wastes/desert domains. Also, what about Perfidus? Do you need to drink there? It's all.. deserty firey.
The reason for the low temperatures is because the non-Core domains don't have their own weather system yet. Once they do, the temperatures be more appropriate.

As for fire damage, it's unfortunately the closest NWN can come to heat damage. Since there's no way to add new damage types we had to make do with what NWN has.

Perfidus doesn't have dehydration because it's not hot and the exterior is basically just one area.

Like I know what you guys have there to simulate some sort of 'burn up' from the heat, I was just wondering why going for heat damage in that kind of weather anyway? I mean it would be much more debilitating to go along with things that actually happen in high heat. Dehydration - heat stroke, etc, etc. Giving people terrible, terrible penalties to skills and saves.. temporary bouts of blindness and movement decrease. You really don't burn up in high heat. You just get confused and dehydrate. Heheh. Or is this just something this Domain does - as some sort of curse? I appreciate the cold damage as that is something that actually happens in cold survival scenarios - eventually if you do not cover yourself in the cold your body shuts off everything until you're dead. It's why frost bite happens. When you're hot - your body sweats out every drop of water to try and cool yourself off using the water cycle, specifically evaporation. - I'm not trying to be a stickler, just confused on the reasons why. I think starker heat penalties would be much better as in Har-Akir the water message and drinking water and paying attention seems to be much more annoying/troublesome/challenging (plus you can die from running out of water). The fire damage can be really bad on top of it and may explain why that place is on high spawn a lot.

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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2011, 12:17:08 AM »
Its from the rules, in an arid waste environment you roll vs the DC set by the temperature range and take non-lethal heat damage if you fail.  Each failure increases the DC by one in the subsequent round. When you reach 0 you pass out from heat. Its only because non-lethal (subdual) damage and heat damage are not implemented in NWN that what we have is the closest compromise. NWN would have been so much better than it already is if they had foresight to include such things as environment hazards and the mechanics that support them from the rules.
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Re: Wilderness features
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2011, 12:59:10 AM »
- Similarly to harvest herbs, skinning larger animals triggering a crouching animation.

I recall Nordock had a ton of scripts in play, and one of them was their harvest/crafting system. Any time you wished to aquire hides you had to use a skinnning knife on the corpse. All the weapon tools were required for their respected resources. Woodcutter's axe for trees, miner's pick for mines, ect... ect..
that brings back memories.
cutting wood was useless without the small axe.
and there was no gathering ore without a pickaxe.
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